tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-65884787262863146932012-02-16T14:04:32.886-08:00Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.comBlogger201100tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-64167089983571816172008-09-24T23:20:00.000-07:002008-09-24T23:23:09.000-07:0035 Comments:<br /> Chaim said... <br />Hi Welcome back! So happy I was before semgirl!!!<br /><br />9/18/2006 4:45 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Thanx Chaim. Let me just say that SG is 'First" in many ways, no matter what!<br /><br />9/18/2006 5:09 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Ok I'm 3rd (p.s. I just got your email).<br /><br />Shana tova to you too.. And I hope all will be well with you.<br /><br />9/18/2006 5:11 PM <br /> Chaim said... <br />I guess you are right! Hope everything is truly ok!<br /><br />9/18/2006 6:43 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />SHEVS!!! AND THE REST OF ALL THE PPL ON BLOGGSVILLE: MAY YOU AND EVERYONE HAVE A MAZELDIK, HEALTHY, HATZLACHADIK, WEALTHY NEW YEAR!!!<br /><br />9/18/2006 9:26 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Strange thing.. I was just going to write you 2 hours ago. And said, nah wait till tommorrow. Glad to see you are back. I have missed you so much.. May the new year bring you only Nachas, Brocha, and Simcha...<br /><br />9/19/2006 12:52 AM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />thnx for showing me that i am right on!<br /><br />9/19/2006 5:01 AM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />welcome back shev, i hope everything gets better.<br /><br />9/19/2006 5:31 PM <br /> Scraps said... <br />Welcome back. Yehi ratzon she'tihiyeh lach shana tovah u'metukah--may this coming year be full of things that are sweet, so that you can see and acknowledge and understand the good in them.<br /><br />9/22/2006 12:44 PM <br /> Pragmatician said... <br />i'm so sorry you had such a rough time.<br />B'H you had someone by your side.<br /><br />9/25/2006 10:19 AM <br /> David_on_the_Lake said... <br />Thats what marriage is all about...<br /><br />Just want to wish you and ur family a wonder ful..wonderful year..Your blog is ..I think the first one..or one of them that I encountered and it encouraged me to start my own..(has it been a year?..)<br /><br />David<br /><br />9/27/2006 11:21 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />You are all very kind. Your wishes are so appreciated. I really hope to get back to posting after succos.<br /><br />David, I didn't realize I was your first (lol). You changed your sn, didn't you?<br /><br />Best wishes to all of you for a good year and an easy fast and a lovely succos!<br /><br />9/28/2006 2:53 PM <br /> ClooJew said... <br />Whatever it was, I hope it's over and you grow from the experience.<br /><br />May you be blessed with a year of all good things.<br /><br />10/03/2006 12:07 PM <br /> Mata Hari said... <br />Hi Elisheva. Very menshy of you to explain your absence - and yet you were able to maintain your privacy.<br />I wish you good mazel and happiness in the year to come.<br /><br />10/03/2006 10:13 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Elisheva - Hope everything is going well for you. You are so great at learning from everybody and every situation. May you and your Chosson always learn together, and find the goodness in everything. And share it with us!<br /><br />10/09/2006 11:56 PM <br /> Lvnsm27 said... <br />Wow you're back<br /><br />shana tova<br /><br />10/10/2006 6:10 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />CJ!!! Josh! You are all too kind.<br /><br />Josh, I did check your blog for a second, and as ususal, it makes me regret not visiting all the time, but I have not been into stuff too much the last few months. So you are our neighbor now (in NJ)? Did I get that right? Hope you are liking it.<br /><br />CJ, I keep meaning to e-mail you, but keep putting it off (as usual....)<br /><br />Mati, thanx. I was trying to do that, and it's nice to know that you noticed. Though, actually, I was thinking over Yom Tov of coming clean so to speak, as in writing about it. It may be good for me, and maybe others, to discuss, but I don't want it to turn into a Wallowing-in-Self-Pity Anonymous...<br /><br />Ivn, best wishes...<br /><br />BTW (or not so BTW) I am posting this from Israel!!! We went like totally last minute for Yom Tov, and it's been awesome! Sorry to all those who feel I should have let you know. You are so right, I should have. I meant to, but didn't end up at work with my comp, so I couldn't and then we were off. Now I am by a comp in Israel and on. So cool. Let this be a personal hello to everyone.<br /><br />Israel is amazing, as usual, lol! So different than experiencing it in sem. Loads to tell you all. Later.<br /><br />Moadim Leshimcha, Gut Yom Tov and Shalom<br /><br />10/12/2006 11:31 AM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Havent heard from you in a while.. A Gittin Kvittl...<br /><br />10/13/2006 1:39 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Eli!<br /><br />So good to hear from you. I hope Sukkos in Israel was amazing. It's been two years since I've been, and there is nothing like it. We want to hear about it (but we understand that you're a buys veib now).<br /><br />I really am your neighbor! I'm trying to visit Lakewood - I've heard so much about it. As soon as I can make a connection, I hope to go for Shabbos and see BMG. I can't wait to see what everybody's been talking about. I'll be sure to report in when I do!<br /><br />10/16/2006 4:48 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />lucky you!!!!!! hope u had a great time!<br /><br />10/16/2006 10:41 PM <br /> nuch a chosid said... <br />keep strong, don't let it slip, tough times pass, there are better ones ahead of you!! always<br /><br />10/27/2006 3:12 PM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />R.I.P.<br /><br />11/03/2006 2:20 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />YY:<br /><br />You wish!<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />11/07/2006 4:53 PM <br /> nuch a chosid said... <br />Time for a new post, Elishev. in the meen time u may chek out mo blog,<br /><br />11/09/2006 2:14 PM <br /> Independent Frum Thinker said... <br />Please check out the new blog. Thank you.<br /><br />11/15/2006 11:16 PM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />RIP<br /><br />12/11/2006 3:52 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />A freilechen chanuka to one and all.<br /><br />12/14/2006 1:29 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />hmmm... do i smell a divorce?<br /><br />12/18/2006 8:25 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />I smelll a marriage too happy to be bothered by the petty blog world.<br /><br />12/19/2006 12:34 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />Anonymous, G-d forbid, we all wish elisheva many many happy years of marriage with her husband, he besheret.<br /><br />More than likely she's just having trouble finding time on the internet, as is kind of an illicit activity in lakewood.<br /><br />12/19/2006 7:39 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />RIP<br /><br />1/08/2007 2:26 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />you people are hysterical...<br /><br />Anon before HNC, yes B"H, I guess you are right. I keep meaning to post, but so little time, and I guess my blog is not in my life what it used to be. But I'd hate to shut it, and keep thinking one day I will still post something. I still have like loads of thoughts, just so little time to write them up...<br /><br />KIT everyone,<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/08/2007 3:44 PM <br /> Zadok said... <br />MAZEL TOV Elisheva!!! I'm happy to see on semegirls blog that you had a child.Mazel tov.<br /><br />8/23/2007 1:28 PM <br /> LakewoodShmuck said... <br />a year since your last post. some of us are still awaiting your return<br /><br />11/01/2007 10:35 PM <br /> Goldwasser Story said... <br />hey it's about time you put a new post or I'll never come back here<br /><br />4/30/2008 8:01 PM<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-6416708998357181617?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-68598698125667376082008-09-24T23:18:00.000-07:002008-09-24T23:20:54.048-07:0088 Comments:<br /> Semgirl said... <br />cool...let me grab the #1 spot before reading it.<br /><br />7/17/2006 4:49 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />I think it's very wrong for husbands to show off their wives. Afterall, we are people not possessions. As a wise person once said to me...if you have a wallet full of money do you show that off too?<br />Don't worry, I'm still formulating more thoughts on this...<br /><br />7/17/2006 5:02 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />poor girls<br /><br />7/17/2006 7:03 PM <br /> Chillin in The Lake said... <br />Now I see what you have been up to? lol<br /><br />7/17/2006 7:18 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />i think it's childish and very wrong. On some level i can't even understand why someone would treat his wife like a thing like that. I think it's horrible and degrading.<br /><br />i think i would be deeply bothered if my wife where to dress non-tzniusly. i can't relate to someone using his wife like a trophy. she's a person for crying out loud! Love her, care for her, and by all means, PLEASE treat her with respect!<br /><br />sorry i'm not being helpfull in this thread, i'm just to shocked at girls being treated so wontonly to even have anything intelligable to add.<br /><br />7/17/2006 10:08 PM <br /> wearywife said... <br />It's better for us to not be overly obsessed with how we dress. Let's just be comfortable and attractive at all times for ourselves.<br /><br />7/17/2006 11:34 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />You have a very special and wonderful husband who appreciates and values your femininity. There are husbands who want their wives to show off and women (like the married girl you mention at the end) who want to show off. It's terrible! Your beauty is not, chalila, to turn the heads of the bochrim. There's only one man you need to attract, and he's obviously proud, and that's in the privacy of your new home.<br /><br />Your husband has a much better idea than you do about what turns a man's eye in the wrong way... because he's a man. It's just the way it is. It's good that you value and appreciate his advice about what to wear outside.<br /><br />It looks like you two are already well on the way to building a true Bayis Ne'eman BeYisrael. May we hear more good news from you soon!<br /><br />7/18/2006 2:33 AM <br /> Pragmatician said... <br />I can't speak for the women, but as husband I am always insisting my wife make an effort to appear tsnisudik whenever we go out.<br />Yet it's undeniable that a husband wants to feel a sensation of pride(not haughtiness) about his wife.<br />When we go to a Simche and all the aunts compliment her (and me) on how she looks it's actually promoting a healthy Shalom Bayis.(very important!!)<br />The fact is that a wife who makes her husband feel good increases his love for her.<br />Therefore I think it's healthy for women to make an effort to look good for her husband in company, but I frown upon flaunting anything.<br />A women can be beautiful and remain friendly and inconspicuous, one doesn't exclude the other at all.<br /><br />7/18/2006 7:01 AM <br /> Shimshy said... <br />All the condemnation.... let's get real. IDEALY it is not a good thing. We all know that. But this is not an ideal world, so let's cut the garbage.<br />Frum ladies dress to kill whenever they go out. Why? Beats me. But they are attracting the looks of every single guy. So my wife has to be the one not to and have me be provoked by every other lady? Dressing to the nines at home for supper, what a joke! When I am outside and see your wife with a face full of make-up, lip-stick, perfume, tight skirt showing off her ass and panties and t-shirt so tight it shows off her boobs, bra, and sometimes even her nipples, nature isn't waiting for supper that night. By then I have been seeing your wife in my mind for hours. So if my wife dresses half like that, don't complain.<br />Am I showing her off? No. Just a self-defensive measure. And between me and you, you all like and wish I would show her off more. Before you all act so holy, where exactly are your eyes going every time my wife is near? She said it a couple of times. She knows she shouldn't show off, but with so many admiring eyes every time she's anywhere, it makes it kinda hard not to want the thrill of flaunting it.<br />When you fix your world up, I will make sure my wife is a frummy neb outside.<br /><br />7/18/2006 9:13 AM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />of course men like to show off thier lovely women <br />women are sex dolls thats it!<br /><br />7/18/2006 10:13 AM <br /> Scraps said... <br />Elisheva, your husband has his priorities in the right place. Unfortunately, a lot of guys don't, and they just want to show off their eye candy to make the other guys jealous.<br /><br />It always bothered me that there seems to be such a double standard in some areas, that before marriage a girl has to dress a certain way (not wear denim, not wear skirts that are too short, not wear anything too low or too tight, etc) and then as soon as sheva brachos are over, all that goes out the door. I always blamed it on the girls themselves, but it sounds like their husbands should also take a large measure of the blame.<br /><br />7/18/2006 11:24 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />"A lot of s admit their husbands like them to dress up nicely, and they always thought that the husbands just wanted them to look good. But now some are saying, does he want me to look good for him, or is it to like show off to his friends?"<br /><br />Its like just when you dress your kids also, who are you dressing them up for? <br />These days if your not dressed to kill you look like a neb and thats an EMBARRASSMENT! its like a guy walking around with his shirt untucked tzizis flying etc. <br />there is no preceived middle ground (IMHO) <br />Its not just to show off its a status symbol!<br />As for semgirls comment "As a wise person once said to me...if you have a wallet full of money do you show that off too?" uh YES they do! of course they do the car and house etc...<br /><br />7/18/2006 11:49 AM <br /> wearywife said... <br />I dress to make myself feel comfortable and presentable. I'm refuse to stress over who does or doesn't like it. Afterall, there's nothing more attractive than a woman who's happy with herself. Believe me, it shows and it's the best make up there is.<br /><br />7/18/2006 12:13 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Hi everyone. Nice to be back commenting on a new post finally.<br /><br />SG - I agree obviously that we should not be used, but I also agree with Limey about that it is sad, but people DO show off their money quite a lot. I would hope a wife should be something more special and private than money.<br /><br />Chillin, while I wait for e-mails, I think of other smart stuff I read in other e-mails, lol!<br /><br />HNC, it's nice that some guys do have the sensitivity...<br /><br />WW - I partially agree. We shouldn't over-obsess, but we can't say I am just too busy with myself to care about others. We have to be aware and care. I don't believe in being selfish. If it takes a little of our time and effort, then that's like what makes us human.<br /><br />Anon, Very well put, and I take all the compliments about my husband, lol! It is true I got someone special, and I totally did not deserve it, so I must thank Hashem for saving me from myself. I just feel bad for my husband... I was lucky to get him, but what did he do to have to end up with a girl like me? lol!<br /><br />Prag, I missed your intellignet remarks. It is nice that there are so many like you who DO have the sensitivity, but you also raise a good point and maybe that is like the whole crux of the issue. How much is okay and flatters the husband like you say with compliments you get about your wife, and how much is too much and just causes problems and is just cheapening us wives? I guess you just have to use your common sense as usual, which like isn't too easy or common anymore....<br /><br />Shimshy, you have an attitude, but the truth is, I have to admit I don't totally have an answer for you, which I mentioned in my post. This DID bother me, like I don't want to cheapen myself or want my husband to make me a cheap show-off thing, but I DO want to keep his eyes on me and it IS pretty crazy the way it's got with how a lot of us dress, I admit. Still, I just think there has to be a better way than continuing the downward spiral.<br /><br />YY, So succint and subtle, as usual... lol<br /><br />Scraps, thanx, and you are so right about the double standard. When we are married and finally should be better off and for each other, suddenly we are going all out in this crazy show off competition...<br /><br />Limey, you raise a point similar to Prag's. So must we cheapen ourselves and flaunt to all your friends just so they don't think you married a neb? I mean this seriously. I understand how it is for a guy (okay, not everything, but I do understand somewhat), so what is the solution?<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />7/18/2006 2:59 PM <br /> Bocher's Dreams said... <br />It is true, some guys have a tayva to flaunt their wives and some wives love to flaunt what they got too.<br /><br />I was just in a local store and a saleslady was wearing a skirt where I saw her pantylines right through. Then she bends over and I see the top of her nude pantyhose and her panties! She is at work, so her husband is not even going to see her until she gets home! Who is she doing this for? To flaunt what she has. (And she sure has a nice ass...)<br /><br />This past Shabbos I ate at a friends. I am sure hundreds of bachurim know exactly what I am talking about when I say that the wife's robe was so tight, I saw every detail of her lace bra through the slinky material. There was not another woman around, so she wasn't doing it to keep his eyes off anyone else. The guy is a "chilled out" guy, and seemed to be enjoying his wife's show and our noticing. I almost thought he was going to invite us to share or something. (I would not have minded, she definiely had the goods.)<br /><br />Yes, some guys do like to show off and some ladies love to show it. And don't give me the "for my husband" excuse....<br /><br />7/18/2006 3:55 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />hi glad to have u back (even though the promisd update is just hinted at as somone else noted, things seem to be doing quiet well bh, we r happy for u, btw elisheva u tend to put yourself down versus your dh to often, its not healthy,& its not true at least from what we know about u,but if u feel that way rely on hkb"h that he knows u r worth it, sorry but just my 2 sence, now about the topic) wow u r back full storm lol, i may be of a more ultra yeshivish crowd so its possible i dont talk for the entire specturm,also i m giving a guys point of vew, (but what i m saying is based on expirence, mine & others,)#1 frum girls must know hubby wants u to look decent for his sisters mother or for any darn WOMEN that sees u, its embarssing to have a wife that does not have the know how to look good,as a matter of fact he may be embaresd of your mother & sister & besides for looking good for ppl, he feels like a loser, his wife is cluless, imagin if u wish he invites freinds for a meal & u r not even there but the food tastes teriblle, its teribly amberassing, (now for those that have merited a hubby, that is above all that first seems unlikly it wont matter at all but if thats the case & for reasons of znius u "pretend" to be a neb as we say in america g_d bless u), #2 IF the guy is happy at home its realy great, he wont need it outside, (of course a perv. will always be a perv.) it may be right in begining being he has whats calld "faigelech in kup" from his singlehood he will mind but it shouldent last very long, (more to say but must run more later bln)<br /><br />7/18/2006 4:01 PM <br /> wearywife said... <br />Elisheva-you missed my point entirely. Dressing for ones self is not about selfishness. It's about ones stress level. I'm over 30, married app 15 years and a mom of a few kids myself and my mom still tries to tell me what to wear. I have friends who also try to make suggestions. Even my husband has proposed outfits with which I'm not comfortable. Then of course there's the co-workers. And the saleslady at the store is also telling me what I must wear to be fashionable. Even my pre-teen daughter has her thoughts on the subject. Afterall, she doesn't want mom to look outdated. Her friends mom wears this and this and that. It's so cool.<br />Where does it end? Everyone has an opinion. Well, lets be practical. Who will be wearing my clothes? Me. Who has to live with them?<br />Me. Who needs to feel comfortable in them? Me. Who needs to feel presentable in them? Me. Yes, lil' ole me. Thus, who's opinion counts the most? Mine. Once again this is not selfishness, but sheer practicality. <br />Just as we need to be reasonably comfortable with our homes, we need to be reasonably comfortable with our wardrobes.<br /><br />7/18/2006 4:45 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />SOLUTION ? DRESS SHARP NOT TIGHT<br />Who said flaunt, i said just dont be a neb. the guy like BD are gonna look anyway...<br />I get annoyed when my wife looks like a total neb (and not comfortable clothes either) because it reflects badly on me <br />she can get "tzinus" clothes and still look "good" but not "fetching"<br />Rabbi abromov mentioned when teaching chasanim you are NOT ALLOWED to tell your wife to wear something "less tzinus"... ITS NOT YOUR BUSINESS... personally i think he's correct but that the women take it to either extreme (hence my point earlier about no middle ground)<br /><br />7/18/2006 6:06 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />women can be beautifull with out being not tznius. i think that, R"L we actualy teach our kids that the only way to be attractive is to be not-tznius, it's so not true.<br /><br />and i think limeys comment is on the money, it isn't his buisiness, his wife has a right to dress as she likes. (after all we don't believe she's property g-d forbid)<br /><br />7/18/2006 6:42 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Bochur may be inappropriate but he is correct. Girls need to be aware of who is around when they are dressing. If you have a group of guys over, you need to realize that you can't display your assets just bec. its Friday night.<br /><br />7/19/2006 1:14 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Anonumous. The women in BD's store and friday night story know exactly what they are doing. Who are you kidding that you say they need to realize, they do.<br /><br />Bd was very true and on the mark unfortunantly. Its a totally different issue nothing to do with husbands wanting to show off their wives. Elisheva, you can make a post on the way many women and girls dress today.<br /><br />The point is that as a few ppl said a wife should dress well in front of others too, its very important for her husband and their shalom bayis. Not every man wants his wife dressed well to show her off in a bad way, and most women who dress that way are not doing it for their husbands but for themselves, and everyone who sees.<br /><br />7/19/2006 1:42 AM <br /> Pragmatician said... <br />I think that too much is when the intention is to attract undue attention, but if it the intention is to look good for among other reasons; a healthy self esteem, promoting Shalom Bayis etc...Than it's not.<br />The parameters are indeed hard to set, yet you'll see that when honest good intentions are present, the results will be too.<br />Have you never seen that gorgeous women that just screamed 'aidelkait'?<br /><br />7/19/2006 7:17 AM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />the problem is girls often convince themselves that they are dressing nicely for themselves when in reality they are dressing the way they dress specificaly so that they can get attention, and this makes them feel good, so they call it "dressing for themselves"<br /><br />having had alot of friends who are girls i can say this happens all the time with girls who are not self awear enough to realize the subtle difference between dressing nicely for your self and dressing provocatively so you can get attention. i also think that often enough society encourages their low self esteem. this is something that hurts me very much, theyh deserve much better.<br /><br />but still the issue with the boys boggles my mind.<br /><br />7/19/2006 7:49 AM <br /> ADMITNOTHING said... <br />Check it out !<br /><br />www.toughjews.blogspot.com<br /><br />You'll be glad you did !<br /><br />7/19/2006 9:10 AM <br /> thinking woman said... <br />The nature of a man is to want to look, & the nature of a woman is to want to be looked at. Add to that an insecure & immature desire to impress others with what we have, be it money, good looks, trophy spouse, etc. & you have a dangerous mix. <br />I know plenty of beautiful women who draw a line regarding how they dress. They have enough self-respect to dress in up-to-date styles that are still dignified. At the end of the day, tznius is really about the woman respecting herself & wanting to be seen as a real person, not just a piece of meat.<br />A man who encourages his wife to dress provocatively in public is making a statement about what he values--the admiration and envy of others. He doesn't respect himself & doesn't respect his wife, either. Very sad.<br /><br />7/19/2006 9:44 AM <br /> wearywife said... <br />Thinking Woman, you hit the nail on the head. Now, lets examine the possible root of this problem. It could very well be that the shallow superficial way frum society judges women is to blame. It starts in high school. She is discouraged from asking too many questions. A girls entire commitment to yidishkeit is measured by what she wears and how committed she is to financially supporting her future husband so he can learn. Then she gets into shidduchim. The shadchanim are telling her that her strongest marketing points are a tiny dress size, a big bank account and a pretty face. Excessive intelligence is a threat and thinking for herself is an even greater threat.<br />It's human nature to want to distinguish ones self in some way. Given what frum society values in females and how females ae taught to perceive themselves, is it any wonder that some women feel the need to wear flashy clothes? Women are taught to be followers and independent thought was never encouraged so is it any wonder that she now feels the need to follow the latest trend? If she is valued mainly for her looks is it any wonder that she may feel the need to show off her more private assets with tight clothing?<br />If, as a bochur, the first things her husband asked about in a girl were her dress size and her bank account, is it any wonder that he might feel the need to show off his pretty wife in expensive, provocative clothing?<br />It seems to me that this is one problem we've created for ourselves.....<br /><br />7/19/2006 10:48 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />If, as a bochur, the first things her husband asked about in a were her dress size and her bank account, is it any wonder that he might feel the need to show off his pretty wife in expensive, provocative clothing?<br />OMG OUCH OUCH OUCH<br /><br />7/19/2006 11:18 AM <br /> thinking woman said... <br />Weary wife, I believe that this problem cuts across many frum circles, not only the "black hat" and learning communities. Walk down Central Avenue in the 5 Towns, or look at Teaneck or at Flatbush & see how the women present themselves. Frum women everywhere (and secular women, too)are sacrificing their personal dignity for the cheap thrill of turning heads. Shidduchim based on bank account size and dress size are not the norm there & most of these women don't fit the "Bais Yaakov" mold you described, but the problem is the same. The message that tznius = self respect is lost today. Read Wendy Shalit's book "A Return to Modesty". She writes from a secular perspective & observes that women cheat themselves out of meaningful relationships and positive self-images when they throw modesty out the window. Another good book is Gila Manolson's "Outside/Inside". It should be required reading for every frum woman. The saddest thing of all is that women don't even realize that they are the losers in all this. If you want to be treated as an intelligent person of value, dressing like a bimbo is counter-productive!<br /><br />7/19/2006 2:33 PM <br /> wearywife said... <br />Thinking Woman, my comment was geared specifiaclly towards the black hat community, however this problem does exist elsewhere as well.<br />See, the thing is most of todays young women(and some older ones as well) have no concept of personal dignity. It's not like they consciously choose to be trendy over retaining their personal dignity. Most people nowadays dont have much of a concept of personal dignity. A couple of years ago this goy wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal about this very issue. He said alot of people dress like overgrown children and worse nowadays. I personally have noticed children dressing like grownups. It's as if we have somehow lost not only our personal dignity but our sense of appropriateness as well. We in the frum community are not as immune as we think we are to the social trends of the outside world. We just give them our own unique flavor.<br />And yes, I've heard of the books you mentioned and highly reccommend them.<br />Limey,your comment is cute but are you good looking? Are you a 34 waist or less? Do you have a good figure? As a man can you imagine a world in which people are more interested in your suit size, waist size and handsomeness than your thoughts and ideas? Don't think, dear, just look in the mirror and comb your hair. Brush your teeth and make yourself look nice.<br /><br />7/19/2006 4:30 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Gosh, so much to comment on, and so little time....<br /><br />BD, I must admit, you make some strong points. A few people e-mailed me saying they agreed with you. (I guess they are shy to comment about it.) Your first story is like so true today and I really should do a separate post on it. The second story is more like about what I posted about.<br /><br />Let me clarify one thing like I think maybe I wasn't clear about before. I am not saying guys like force or make their wives dress badly. I admit usually it's the ladies who enjoy it as much as the guys. I think the whole thing is like a certain immaturity. I admit I can get immature too sometimes, but like we should have a certain degree of self-respect and a line we don't cross.<br /><br />So my issue is not about ladies being forced to dress a way they don't want, but about guys looking at us like objects to show off and some guys even told me that is normal and what is wrong with it. I think it is just a wrong and demeaning thing. Of course we should dress nice and it would be embarrassing to have a wife who looks terrible, but like not because you want to show us off. Just because we should not embarrass you or ourselves. <br /><br />So I am not talking tznius here. That is like a different issue, and I should really do a post on it. I mean like the issue of a guy enjoying showing his wife off and not having that line, that even if he has hormones and guy stuff etc. a wife should be a line not to cross maybe.<br /><br />sf, thanx for your compliments and sorry about the lack of updates. I guess I have to be happy that I can post the little I can... and you do wonders for my self-esteem...<br /><br />You make some good points. I don't know why you think it is like an ultra-yeshivish thing to want your wife to look good for your parents/in-laws. It is natural. A lot of people spoke about this. I think at the bottom of this, the line has to be that of course we should look good, but not because a guy wants to show us off. That's my feeling. And yes, it is a fine line, but I guess if you are honest, and depending on why you are dressing, you will like get into the right way.<br /><br />Like if you are doing it just to be always presentable and even look fashionable, but you and your husband both understand that you are too precious to be shown off, automatically you will like not go too far even if you want to to look good or fashinable.<br /><br />But if you are like doing it cause the immature, horny, or whatever part wants to show off or be shown off, then it will be way more than just not embarrassing your husband, it will be like the way BD says it, and that is like demeaning and mean for the single guys and even the married ones.<br /><br />WW - You wrote two different things and I have like comments on both of them. About the selfish thing. I am totally not putting anyone down, but you say "It's about ones stress level." Okay, so can't you stress yourself a bit to please a spouse? That's my whole point. If my husband asks me to wear something I am uncomfortable in, yes, I am the one wearing it, but he is my husband. And like besides that it is not smart for him not to be happy even for selfish reasons, cause like an unhappy husband cannot be good even for yourself in your marriage, but besides that, can't we give a drop to our husbands? So that is my whole point. Of course there are limits and I agree, but the attitude that I can't be bothered at all and just will not get stressed and will please myself, is just not my way. You have to maintain your sanity, sure, and you can't like lose yourself and get totally stressed out, but a little stress will not kill you if it is for a greater good. And making someone happy, is a greater good. Okay, I am sounding preachy, so I will stop. It is just how I feel, but sure I know that in real life it is like way harder...<br /><br />Limey, your comments are always great. I think I agree with you mostly. You have to just get the right line.<br /><br />HNC, you wrote "we actualy teach our kids that the only way to be attractive is to be not-tznius, it's so not true." That is much truer than you think, and we have to deal with it before it gets like way out of hand. And I will add that sometimes talking 'tznius' to your kids all day, also has the opposite effect and tells them you have to be a neb but too bad. That is so not true, and the kid will just not listen. Trust me, lol.<br /><br />both anons, you are right...<br /><br />Prag, I already said, you ppl got it right. We just have to get the right line.<br /><br />HNC, we do fool ourselves, you are so right. And a husband can help us see things right, unless he has this thing that he likes that we fool oursleves cause he is proud to have his friends see us as a trophy or whatever...<br /><br />thinking w. - so well put. Why didn't my teachers speak like this? I should get to know you...<br /><br />WW - I have to agree with Thinking W. on this. You seem to be just like pushing an agenda that other blogs like to push. I totally do not think this has anything to do with yeshivish/frum/ whatever. It is in all circles. People who value their cars and homes and all things material to an extreme will look at their wives, and girls at themselves, the same way. Of course we all have to work on ourselves in that respect, but like I said, there is like a limit. But the ones who do, are found in all circles, maybe even more than in ours. Trust me, in some modern circles I know well, the wives openly flirt with the husbands and the guys are quite happy about it, it's scary. It is the same immaturity all over.<br /><br />And the whole stereotype is so not true. I have like so many problems with our school-system, but the typical anti-kollel, anti-yeshiva ones are so made up. We think like way too much, we are not told to be followers or anything of the sort. Girls grow up to be like so many different types. There are problems, like you bet, but not the ones the anti-kollel ppl wish there were.<br /><br />Thinking W. I have read the books and they are truly like on the mark. Can I ask what age bracket you are in? You really have a rare understanding I admire<br /><br />I am way too long, Shalom<br /><br />7/19/2006 4:51 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />ww, sorry I posted before I saw your last comment. It was very well said, besides the last part, as I said. I was in the market and have friends still like in it. They ask just as much about marks, brains, sem, and stuff that between me and you have like so little to do with us as wives and mothers. They should ask more about middos. But looks is actually not the major part. Money is a way bigger issue, but even that is not all. The asking about marks and tests and how good of a student she was is just as crazy...<br /><br />7/19/2006 4:54 PM <br /> wearywife said... <br />Eilsheva, What's wrong with wanting a girl who achieves in school? They're probably asking about her school career to see if she can get a good job and command a good salary. Don't worry, they're not interested in her intellectual development.<br />Once again this isn't about selfishness. I'm saying so many people have an opinion about what we should wear. Our parents(no Elisheva, mom will never stop trying to tell us what to wear), friends,co-workers, spouses, sales people.....Even my 12 y/o daughter has an opinion! She wants me to be as cool as her friends mom! Everyone is a fashion critic!!!<br />So, I dont always listen to my mom's fashion advice....does that make me a bad daughter? So I'm not a femme fatale......does that make me a bad wife? So I'm not as cool as my daughter's friend's mom...does that make me a bad mother? No to all of the above. The fact is you will never, ever please everyone.It's just not possible, so the prudent thing to do is to be open to suggestions but to use your own judgement.<br /><br />7/19/2006 7:27 PM <br /> Chana said... <br />WW... Duh...<br /><br />And here I thought, it was about pleasing your husband, if you have<br />one.. Silly me...<br /><br />Elisheva, excellent post and great comments. Keep up the good work..<br /><br />7/19/2006 9:16 PM <br /> thinking woman said... <br />Elisheva, your blog is one of the very few out there where intelligent, honest, respectful discussion is consistently maintained. I lurk on many frum-oriented blogs but rarely comment. Since you asked, I am in my thirties. I am married and have a bunch of kids. I find the issue of tznius very complex & put a lot of thought into it on a regular basis. Keep up with your excellent blogging!<br /><br />7/19/2006 9:32 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />What BD says rings true- girls have 2 ways of dressing <br />1. In front of people they fear will think negatively about them (read: adults) and<br />2. In front of their friends<br />I went with my husband to our friends house one Shabbos and her "special shabbos outfit" bared so much cleavage I thought he wouldn't be interested in me when we got home- Jamie<br /><br />7/20/2006 1:00 AM <br /> bachur in the know said... <br />and let's not forget the latest 'heimish' version of swinging. The two couples eating together Friday night - both wives showing every drop of cleavage and curve of their asses. The guys eye each other, okay the checking out of their mates - the wives are giggly and 'bumping into' and playing footsie with the friend's husband - and then, after open talk about "oh you can't imagine what she does to me, she's wild", and "oh my husband is so good at that, pity he can't show you..." - then while no one would dream the couple who 'ate at their friends' did it, they switch partners and go to different rooms, "just for the good of their marriages", to teach the spouse some good techniches.<br /><br />right.....<br /><br />7/20/2006 9:26 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />Bocher in the know...... and then you woke up<br /><br />7/20/2006 10:44 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Chana, hi. Thanx.<br /><br />Thinking W. - Thanx. I do try. It shows that you thought about this stuff, and you did a good job. Would you e-mail me? I'd love to talk stuff with such a normal person...<br /><br />Bachur ITK - Like what BD described is sadly all too true. What you write on the other hand, like maybe, maybe it happened, but it is not exactly a major problem in our society. Don't believe every crazy rumor you hear. Some horny guy prob wanted it to happen more than it ever did...<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />7/20/2006 3:20 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />(advance appologies to elisheva if she considers me presumptuous for saying this.)<br /><br />do we really have to use such vulgar language on this thread? harsh words make a person's heart harsh y'know.<br /><br />tznius is speach aplies to both men and women, and it includes things like using harsh language or directly mentioning unclean things you know. (as well as more vulgar word choices)<br />(again, i hope i'm not being presumptuous)<br /><br />7/20/2006 3:32 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />You are being great HNC! Thanx, I hate having to do it, but you are right. It is way better to say stuff in a subtle way.<br /><br />7/20/2006 3:52 PM <br /> ThinkingJew said... <br />I think Bachur ITK is saying that even if it hasn't happened yet, why will it not get there? If BD is right and it is so out of hand, which seems to be people's sentiments, then look at the broader world, and this is the next step. Let's not fool ourselves to think we can flaunt the rules so far and then stop. Once you go down, who is to stop it from going more?<br /><br />7/20/2006 3:54 PM <br /> Gavi said... <br />'Tis very simple. People have a lot of trouble understanding and practicing tznius, because it is so much more than necklines or skirt lengths. It is about how one carries oneself, presents oneself, and acts in general. Clothing (for both men and women) is just one small indicator. Rav Hershel Schechter writes about this at great length in many essays found on torahweb.org.<br /><br />7/20/2006 8:18 PM <br /> Bracha said... <br />I think generally the couples or women who will act like this are more immature and do this only because now after they are married they feel they "can". <br /><br />They are married now and can do grown up things and think they can dress how they like since they have to "look good".<br /><br />But in reality, they would have dressed like this and sometimes do dress like this even before being married. <br /><br />Bracha<br /><br />7/20/2006 11:41 PM <br /> kollel mama said... <br />Wow. Great post. Lots to comment on. As bracha said, I think girls would dress they do once their married, but don't since parents don't let them. It's not unusual for a girl who is 22 to be told by her mother to change. It's pathetic but I've seen it.Anyway, the fact that a husband wants his wife to look good, isn't such a big deal. Don't you want your husband to look good and put together? And as someone had mentioned, your kids? You want them to look nice, for other people as much as for you. You want to look like a put together couple. There is nothing wrong, with a husband wanting his wife to look pretty, even if it's for other people, as well as himself.<br /><br />Are we women being used, as we often are, or is this the way of the world? <br /><br />Um, maybe the way of the world is, women are sometimes used ;) (just a side point!)<br /><br />or is it sick and weird, and a bad hashpa’ah from the world we live in that a husband does not think of his wife as special for him, and has no problem showing her off?<br /><br />The way I see it is, that he sees the wife as special, and that's the very reason he wants to show her off! I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I don't necessarily think it's a stira.<br /><br />As far as your friend, who purposely flaunts what she has-- that is sick. Her reasoning is absolutely skewed.<br /><br />Women do enjoy looking good, for themselves, for their husbands and for everyone else. The attention feels nice. And there's nothing wrong with dressing nice,as long as it is not done, to attract NEGATIVE attention. If someone compliments you on a sheitel or a nice outfit, I think that is okay. When you are wearing a tight robe Friday night with guys over, that is NOT okay. Some women do really need to feel good about themselves, and do dress for themselves. I know that when I wake up in the morning after a night of not too much sleep (thanks to my beautiful baby)and I wonder who that face in the mirror staring back at me is, I need the makeup, and fast. As soon as I put my makeup on I already feel better. I look like a human.<br /><br />As far as "dressing to the nines for supper"-what the heck is the point? Do you think your husband really cares if you've got a full face of makeup and heels on at the end of the day? Maybe yours does, but I think most are very understanding, and don't really care. As long as supper is on the table, that's what matters! <br /><br />Sorry this is lots of uncohesive bits of rambling, but last night was "one of those nights". :)<br /><br />7/23/2006 5:00 AM <br /> kollel mama said... <br />Wow. Great post. Lots to comment on. As bracha said, I think girls would dress they do once their married, but don't since parents don't let them. It's not unusual for a girl who is 22 to be told by her mother to change. It's pathetic but I've seen it.Anyway, the fact that a husband wants his wife to look good, isn't such a big deal. Don't you want your husband to look good and put together? And as someone had mentioned, your kids? You want them to look nice, for other people as much as for you. You want to look like a put together couple. There is nothing wrong, with a husband wanting his wife to look pretty, even if it's for other people, as well as himself.<br /><br />Are we women being used, as we often are, or is this the way of the world? <br /><br />Um, maybe the way of the world is, women are sometimes used ;) (just a side point!)<br /><br />or is it sick and weird, and a bad hashpa’ah from the world we live in that a husband does not think of his wife as special for him, and has no problem showing her off?<br /><br />The way I see it is, that he sees the wife as special, and that's the very reason he wants to show her off! I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I don't necessarily think it's a stira.<br /><br />As far as your friend, who purposely flaunts what she has-- that is sick. Her reasoning is absolutely skewed.<br /><br />Women do enjoy looking good, for themselves, for their husbands and for everyone else. The attention feels nice. And there's nothing wrong with dressing nice,as long as it is not done, to attract NEGATIVE attention. If someone compliments you on a sheitel or a nice outfit, I think that is okay. When you are wearing a tight robe Friday night with guys over, that is NOT okay. Some women do really need to feel good about themselves, and do dress for themselves. I know that when I wake up in the morning after a night of not too much sleep (thanks to my beautiful baby)and I wonder who that face in the mirror staring back at me is, I need the makeup, and fast. As soon as I put my makeup on I already feel better. I look like a human.<br /><br />As far as "dressing to the nines for supper"-what the heck is the point? Do you think your husband really cares if you've got a full face of makeup and heels on at the end of the day? Maybe yours does, but I think most are very understanding, and don't really care. As long as supper is on the table, that's what matters! <br /><br />Sorry this is lots of uncohesive bits of rambling, but last night was "one of those nights". :)<br /><br />7/23/2006 5:00 AM <br /> FrumGirl said... <br />Woah... I didnt read any other comments I got here late for the debate so I will just write what I think. <br /><br />Too much thought is being put into what you think the guys are doing. You can only be used if you think you are being used. What does it ultimately matter if there is some loserish competition among the guys. Let that be their issue.... And yes womoen enjoy dressing for themselves too not just for the guys. I know that I dont dress for hubby. there are many times I will try new styles that he isnt into and dislikes but I always tell him he will get used to it, and usually does and ends up liking it. We are not an extention of men unless we make ourselves that way. Ladies, get your confidence from within not from some guy be it hubby or whomever. And let the losers who compete with their wives to contend with only themselves too.<br /><br />7/23/2006 1:44 PM <br /> michal said... <br />I think kollelmama has a good point - a lot of girls are expected to dress like little girls all their lives... their mothers and BY and seminary decide and dictate exactly what they're allowed to wear... and it's not only not very sexy, it's not very grown-up either. Because "society" tells them it's not aidel. When they get married, and can now choose to dress like women and not girls, some can go overboard. But it's a double standard to say that they can't dress sexily when they're not married, because they're not married -- and they can't dress sexily when they are married, because they are. <br /><br />There's a difference between dressing alluringly because you want to attract the attention of men who aren't your husband, which is obviously a problem, and wanting to look like a beautiful wife when he comes home, so he'll look forward to coming home to you. A good husband will always understand and appreciate the difference.<br /><br />7/23/2006 1:55 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Hi, <br /><br />TJ - That is a scary thoguht. I have to agree with some of it. We do have to wonder where our little things can lead us to...<br /><br />Gavi, I don't think the issue here is a tznius one.<br /><br />Bracha - HI! Very good point. I think this is for both the guys and ladies. The girls want to dress in a way as if it is suddenly okay because now we are "ladies". And for the guys it is suddenly a kosher way of showing off about girls, cause it's their wife and a wife is kosher.<br /><br />KM - I don't think you got the point here. We are totally not talking abut looking good. I am not exactly going around looking like a neb. Far from it. I think if I would be on a higher madrega there are things I wear I probably should not. The issue here clearly was one of flaunting your body specifically for guys and husbands wanting us to do just that. That is a totally different issue.<br /><br />And you say "The way I see it is, that he sees the wife as special, and that's the very reason he wants to show her off! I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I don't necessarily think it's a stira." Then you say the lady who wears a tight robe Friday night is sick. Why? She just thinks she is special, like showing off her pearls, which is for sure normal, so she also like shows off her boobs.<br /><br />You will have to agree that there are different types of special. And there is a special that if you are mature, should be above your outfit and jewlery, and like maybe private-special. But maybe that is a nebby old-fashioned concept which I somehow picked up. Gosh, my mother would love that, lol!<br /><br />And a husband doesn't care if his wife looks good for supper, ever? I know sometimes it just doesn't happen and sometimes he is too hungry and tired, but if he cares outside, why not at home? Like to me it seems a guy really can get aroused from a wife dressed not just to the nines, but more to the point, to show that she wants him to see her and notice how she looks.<br /><br />FG - That is a very good point about not being used unless you let yourself. I like it.<br /><br />Michal, I don't know about us not dressing maturely. I think we dress too mature too young. I know I did it too, and my mother begged me not to, but like I agree I did and we all did and it was silly.<br /><br />The second paragraph of your comment I could not agree more with. I await more of your comments.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />7/24/2006 4:53 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />i don't know if i'd call it "dressing mature".<br /><br />somehow it seems like dressing immaturely. It's like a mature person should know that they don't have to show off their bodies to every one shouldn't they? when we call this dressing like an adult i think we're sending a not so subtle message here.<br /><br />proper adults should have more respect for each other.<br /><br />lets just call this mode of dress what it is, dressing anti-tznius.<br /><br />7/24/2006 5:25 PM <br /> kollel mama said... <br />please-showing off in a tight robe with a lace bra when they are having guys over is something totally different, than dressing to kill outside. I also know, that some husbands aren't into makeup and jewelry. Believe it or not. So dressing for supper won't make much of a difference. Naturally, it's not nice for him to come home and she's shlepping around in Abercrombie pajama pants-but dressed, normally in a skirt and shirt, even a t-shirt,is fine for most husbands. Besides, once you're out of shana rishona and iy''H you have kids (or whichever comes first ;))you'll just be pleased that you actually got supper on the table.<br /><br />7/25/2006 4:19 AM <br /> SKIBUM said... <br />"but more to the point, to show that she wants him to see her and notice how she looks."<br />Eli7- right on, that comment shows you are muture beyond your years<br />SHE WANTS TO BE NOTICED BY HER HUSBAND!!!<br />and the immature one want to be noticed by other "husbands"<br /><br />7/25/2006 1:36 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />HNC - I don't think you realize what i am talking aobut. I guess it's girl-talk. Dressing mature totally does not have to mean anti-tznius or whatever you call it. A girl can dress in a way that would be totally appropriate and tznius for a twenty year old, but like totally not on a fourteen year old.<br /><br />KM - Dressing to kill outside may be a bit different than a lace bra under a tight robe, but in truth, like is it okay? It may be better, but still not okay. There is like a bigger difference between dressing to please and look good and even stylish outside and dressing to kill.<br /><br />ANd I never said dressing to the nines means make-up or jewlery only. It can be whatever your husbnad would like. Every guy likes his wofe in cewrtain things or look sand there is no reason that when you can (of course that gets less and less with time, but for us young newlies and for the older ones I guess when you can...) you should not drsss in a way that pleases, and even arouses him, just for a plain supper. maybe the kalla stuff is fresh in my mind and this sounds nebby to older couples, but maybe some stuff is good to be reminded about and like rekindle stuff. it sure is better than the pathetic guys online all saying howe little their wives care how they look unless they are dressing to go out. Sorry if I sound preachy. I can get that way, lol...<br /><br />Skibum, thanx, and you put it pretty nicely yourself!<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />7/25/2006 3:18 PM <br /> Yakov said... <br />Ok after reading the posts here, I must say I am one of those guys who encourages his wife to dress nicely. In my case it is crucial for “shlom bayit”. When my wife dresses nicely I feel proud walking around with her and my attention is kept towards her. When she decides to dress simple I will notice her less and notice other woman more. So for woman who are married to guys like me, it is important to dress nicely in order to keep their husbands focused on them. Ok stop screaming you are a perv that terrible…. right or not, this is most guys nature they will notice other woman, and if their wife is looking and dressing nicely, they will keep their focus on their wives as opposed to noticing other woman. <br />In your case Elisheva your husband doesn’t seem to be the wandering eyes type, which is great and therefore you don’t need to dress up. In most cases guys do have wandering eyes so the wives should try to look good and trust me this does a lot of good for the marriage.<br />As far as other men looking I don’t really mind, I do the same when a good looking girl passes by so hey why shouldn’t they look as well….<br /><br />7/25/2006 5:47 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Yakov, like are there any people left, especially yeshiva guys, who know how to read English??<br /><br />This post is NOT about wives dressing nice. Do you know what "flaunt" means? Do you know what "flirty" means? The question was about guys liking it when their wives flaunt and dress flirty for other guys and look at it like some kind of one-up over their friends, and some kind of competition.<br /><br />Did anybody get that?<br /><br />And when you sau you do it so you have no problem when guys do it to your wife, how far would you take that? All the way? Like most guys admit they would check out a lady dressed provocaively too. So because you have a nisayon and are human and would do it, so like therefor you would have no problem with a guy checking out your wife's intimate parts and underwear? Like if we take things this far, it can get weird. maybe we have to say, I admit I am human and do it, and if another guy does it, it is human, but I sure would rather it was not on my wife's intimate parts.<br /><br />Guess I am still pretty naive.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />7/25/2006 7:01 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Are there like any like people left, especially like seminary girls, who like write English without writing the world like so much?<br /><br />7/26/2006 8:27 AM <br /> yakov said... <br />Yakov, like are there any people left, especially yeshiva guys, who know how to read English??<br /><br />This post is NOT about wives dressing nice. Do you know what "flaunt" means? Do you know what "flirty" means? The question was about guys liking it when their wives flaunt and dress flirty for other guys and look at it like some kind of one-up over their friends, and some kind of competition.<br /><br />Elisheva,<br />I’m glad that in your English the difference between dressing nice and dressing flirty is so well cut. Sorry to break it to you, what might seem as flaunt to some might be nice dressing to others. <br /><br />Its very naïve of you to think that men tell their wives, please dress provocative so other men will look. If you decided that the way these woman dress is flaunt, it does not necessarily mean that others view it that way as well. This post has a lot to do with woman dressing nice or flirty or flaunty whatever you like calling it...<br /><br />7/26/2006 9:32 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Yakov, first of all it was out of place where I wrote about yeshiva guys not knowing English. I guess I am human. It is true of some guys, but I have seen that others do know it. In general some people just don't know how to read things and just like respond to the issue in their heads, like their agenda, and not the issue they just read about.<br /><br />About what you wrote, I think this is like a classic example of fooling yourself. I know how it works, trust me. I've been there, and maybe I still am there. But deep down we know the truth and flaunting is like definitely NOT dressing nice and it is totally two different things.<br /><br />A husband might not say straight out dress provocatively for my friends, but when he is pushing her to dress in a certain way which is way over the top and way more then looking good and he is immature and gets a kick out of his friends seeing her, he is only fooling himself when he says, to me this is only dressing nice.<br /><br />Like I am totally human and fall many times and dress too far. But at least I know deep down it is wrong and I really should grow up and get a hold of myself. The problem is when we start saying, oh it is not too bad, it is only dressing nice...<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />7/26/2006 3:16 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />it's good of you to admit that elisheva, although honestly i think it's more a sign of age than anything else, so you come by it fairly, and i suspect are much better than most even.<br /><br />there are basicaly two kinds of "adult" dress. there is the kind that is flaunting(and yes some people of your age, boys and girls both confuse it for nice), and there is dignified.<br /><br />flaunting ranges from the obvious to the very subtle. red lipstick is one of the most "classic" examples of extreemely subtle flaunting dress, and i think an excelent thing to wear at home for your husband. There are varying forms of this, and really i think we are taught to avoid all of these in public (whether your single or married really).<br /><br />but i think there is another kind of "adult" dress. Dressing in a dignified way, a way that respects your self as a person and tries to present you in a manner that doesn't demean you in any way (and i think that's essentialy what tznius is, because the truth is boys will do their thing after seing a girl whether or not she's not-tznius). I really cant give examples of such dress (mostly because you see so little of it nowdays). such dressing can also be called nice, and even beautifull, but not for base reasons.<br /><br />I think that we're supposed to work on our selves, so that we do not try to resort to using our bodies to sell our selves to other people. I really think that hashem wants us to have the self esteem necessary to be our best, and i think such an attitude is what will make us healthiest.<br /><br />elisheva, i understand full good and well all the implications of the "girl talk" expression "looking nice" or "adult". I've had to many friends who where girls and listened to them talk about such things as friends to often not to know.<br /><br />however that said, hashem makes us in a way that we have a desire to. . . do things like that, and mastering it is one of the most difficult things a human being can do. i think that as long as you are doing better that you did before and are workuing on your self that your ok and doing well. Remember what perkei avos tells us about neither desisting from the work, nor must we complete it. <br /><br />and i think that men and womens desires play off each other here, while it may not be something i relate to (at all.)i can certainly see, now that its been presented to me, just how people tell themselves these things are ok. we tell our selves that "really we're doing it for our husbands" but honestly, do they wear such or more in their houses? most husbands properly trained will only have eyes for their wives, even in the public place (and i myself have a number of women to credit for properly training me) when we tell our selves that "their eyes will naturaly wander anyway" we are basicaly making an excuse to compete with the other women, instead of holding me culpable for their behavior. <br /><br />will they possibly desire to look? i would worry if they didn't. However hashem gave each of us a yeitzer tov, and under normal everyday conditions we are guranteed that we are able to overcome it. part of the law is that we are forbiden to look in that not-ok way at members of the opposite sex, and scince men cannot really control the manner of dress in the women they inevidably come around, the reality is that they will come around, and hashem has prepared us to deal with it. (although for time to time it may be a major struggle)<br /><br />(sorry for this whole tangential thing)<br /><br />7/26/2006 6:30 PM <br /> sara said... <br />just for a different perspective- I've been married for close to 2 years now. I have to say that the way I chose to dress has definitely changed. And no, it is not because my husband encourages me to 'dress' in any certian way. simple: my husband boosted my confidance in myself and the way I look. That with time changed the way I carried myself. <br />When you are single it is very easy to feel like your looking like 'crap' when you are constantly attending l'chaims, weddings etc... where every 'eligible' girl is dressed to kill, skinny as a toothpick, and wearing seven layers of makeup. So the right pple would check them out etc... I always hated the scene- and never took part of the whole concept of looking amazing so people will see you and set you up etc....<br />But I definitely felt self conscious plently of times. Thankfully, I married a wonderful guy, and its the opposite of what you are all saying. My husband loves me and makes me feel gorgeous. I feel great and I always want to look good even in daily jean skirt :) I don't feel the need to compete with other woman or girls or for other men's attention. My husband does not know styles and he loves me in whatever I chose to wear as long as I am comfortable in it.<br /><br />Whereas before I got married I felt like a piece of 'meat'. People describing me as "she's really pretty, on the shorter side, very cute" etc... selling me off... after I got married that all changed. <br /><br />The situation swings both ways:<br /><br />We were once out with some other couples eating pizza. and this one girl remarked that she can't believe her hubby eats 'five' slices of pizza. she was freaking out that her hubby eats waay too much. she's like you eat one slice. so i told her, "what do u mean, I could probably eat a few slices but i try to eat one or two so I don't turn into a cow" so she's says "so what will happen if you gain some weight" so my husband jokingly says "what do u mean I don't let her gain weight" so she's replies "how sick". This coming from a wife who was dictating her hubby how many slices of pizza to eat cuz he's too overweight and telling him to tuck in his shirt!!!<br />I never tell my hubby about his weight etc... I only compliment him when he looks good and I let him know that I appreciate him working out and being fit etc....<br />Women & Men alike appreciate when their spouse is put together and looks mentshlich. But in my circle of friends & acquaintances if someone dresses provacitively people wonder how the husband does mind that his wife is auctioning her goods....<br />okay this got kind of long....adios<br /><br />7/26/2006 8:26 PM <br /> Elisheva's Husbad (yeshiva guy) said... <br />Elisheva,<br />I accept your apologies for insulting yeshiva guys.<br /><br />7/28/2006 9:34 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />what is a husbad .. Is there a husgood<br /><br />7/28/2006 4:47 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Seems like most of you missed the boat a long time ago, and it would take a lot more than some discussions on a blog to explain.<br /><br />7/30/2006 7:56 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />elisheva i misunderstood the point of post, (it seems so have others) i thought u were trying to figure out is it true that the wifes r regarded by huubys as "trophies", that i belive the majorty of "guys" said no to,(that explains y i said ultra yeshivish as dont know in other circles may or may not be diff.),<br />now i relize your question was directed to the women around here, & was introspective about "why" they dress the way they do, obviously its up to the girls to awnser, but i do have a thought on the matter as to y girls will dress more provctivly after getting marreid, i think its quiet simple, most frum girls do not relate to themselvs as physicly attractive, & dont dress to show off there attributes, being its not realy "nogea", they r (at least not officaly)not being lookd at by boys, so naturly they will dress tastefully & thats all, but once marreid & they r very aware about there physical attraction, & it becomes quiet importent to them, & therfore dress acordingly, <br />(btw did anybody hear from ms shtark, shes not been around latly i hope for good reason)<br /><br />7/31/2006 4:02 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />ms shtark went to israel for 6 weeks.. She should be back around Aug. 12. I miss her so much..<br /><br />7/31/2006 4:10 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />thanx sg for the info. i hope all is well with here there, & yes she is missd i must say she adds alot to the blog thank u again<br /><br />7/31/2006 9:47 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />I think that men who want their wives/girlfriends to dress provocatively are not saying anything regarding their views of women, but rather are making a statement about their own self esteem. They need their friends/co-workers/strangers to acknowledge that the seemingly average Joe is not so average after all if he could get such a such a woman to be with him.<br /><br />8/01/2006 2:35 PM <br /> David said... <br />I've never commented here before and live in a different community than you, but I think that this issue is not community-limited. I've been married for 5 years now and have talked with my wife many times about dress, etc.<br /><br />I believe that many women like the attention that they get from random people - they like when guys think of them as pretty, "hot" and desirable. I think that the focus on desirable is really behind all of this. Women, I believe all women, want to feel desired - there are just different ways of going about it. A husband can entirely fill this role, so that his wife does not feel any need to feel desirable by other men.<br /><br />I think that the problem of secular culture that you mentioned is that the husbands promote such behavior because of the notion of a trophy wife. They do not actually need to tell their wives anything, but when another guy looks at his wife and he smiles approvingly (as in "yeah, I know") that is enough encouragement - that is promoting her dressing behavior.<br /><br />There is an additional element of women and girls wanting to look good in front of their peers, colleagues and adults - I believe that this refers only to women. Women usually feel the need to look good in front of other women - this is not because of desirability - I am not sure that I understand entirely why. I don't think a women needs to dress provacatively (and yes, cleavage is provacative) to garner this group's "approval" that they seek. They just need to be put together and present themselves nicely (I think that this part is the most important but will leave it to other women to discuss). In my neighborhood there are sometimes Women Friday Night Onegs - if you have any by you - see what the women wear there - it is very different that their "tight robes."<br /><br />Elisheva, I think you write about issues after a lot of thought - I appreciate that. Thanks.<br /><br />8/02/2006 1:55 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />i think to answer davids question as to why is that women in general respond to any kind of "competition" differently than men. men confron it directly, women on the other hand are known to go in a round about way doing things like denigrating the way someone dresses, directly to the person or people they are competing "for"<br /><br />i think that in a very real way this is a veriation of this theme. the women, afraid that someone may appear "better" than them selves respond by attempting to out do the "competition", and they do it for their own self esteem. i just think the problem is how they are competing. Essentialy these girls are trying to compensate for what ever they feel they lack by showing something they believe to be of value, and unfortunately they seem to place this value on their bodies instead of their minds, character and demeanor.<br /><br />i think i'm rembling so i'll cut short here<br /><br />8/02/2006 5:22 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />elisheva,<br />this hatred toward yeshiva guys is stange considering its' coming from a "lakewood girl". totaly uncalled for .... Your apology not withstanding, i suspect this was the quintessential freudian slip.<br /><br />8/03/2006 8:39 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />elisheva,<br />this hatred toward yeshiva guys is stange considering its' coming from a "lakewood girl". totaly uncalled for .... Your apology not withstanding, i suspect this was the proverbial freudian slip.<br /><br />8/03/2006 8:40 AM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />"unfortunately they seem to place this value on their bodies instead of their minds, character and demeanor. "<br /><br />Spot on...HNC<br /><br />8/04/2006 1:08 AM <br /> David said... <br />IMHO I think that, at least with regard to men, it is really a question of feeling desired. This is a quick and easy method to feel that way.<br /><br />8/04/2006 9:23 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />semgirl, do you think ms. shtark wanted you to post her travel arrangements?<br />you wouldn't want someone to post yours... (of course yours wouldn't be "real time")<br /><br />8/08/2006 11:16 AM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />wow, quite the loaded topic. being that i have no patience to read thru all 73 comments, i'll just add my 2 cents anyways.<br /><br />although, i am still single, i still have my opinion about this. i could be wrong but i understand why a husband would want to show off his wife and what he's got all to himself (hopefully). it's like showing off your new infiniti or lincoln town car, a rolex or any other thing that you own..... but it still is tasteless. This for sure affects the whole wide world but also in the yeshivish world, i have this theory... most newlyweds can't afford that many material possessions but they do have a wife and for lack of anything else, they may want to show off even more what they have. I am not condoning this but it's fact because we are such a materialistically competitive and desirous generation- Sometimes, I think that we (men and ladies) never really grow up - we're still doing show and tell - in more subtle but even more harmful ways. Instead of your pet frog, now it's bigger and better stuff (hopefully not bigger than size 4, tho right guys? LOL - sorry couldn't resist) A wife is more than a possession to show off, rather she is someone to keep to yourself and cherish. and what is beautiful you cover up properly and you are not desperate for the whole world to see. Gila Manolson talks about this in her book called "outside/inside" - i reccomend it to all! <br /><br />Shevs, it sounds like you got a great husband because he values you and doesn't want to share you with the rest of the world. Any woman who flaunts her body knowing she is receiving all this attention truly needs a self esteem boost. I have met plenty of girls like this. <br /><br />But on with it..... Although we shouldn't be walking around with see thru or too tight or too short clothing showing off all our assets or lack of them, doesn't mean we have the right (yes the right) to go around like harried shlumps in baggy clothing. A ba'alas teshuva once told me that you don't realize how much the rest of the world, esp irreligious ppl are checking u out - not to sound too sappy - she told me that we are like walking sifrei torah. Is the mantel of a sefer torah a shlumpy too large black jersey with a too long frumpy black pleated skirt or a two week out of the cleaners greying shirt worn every day, with pants that you can see your reflection in? no way! Therefore, we have to dress accordingly. There is nothing wrong with dressing with it and trendy as long as you don't go overboard. you can wear what is in style in a tasteful and aidel way. it's funny because i myself like to dress trendy but i don't either like to call too much unwanted attention so you have to just make sure that the whole overall look "shtims" - i have a friend who told me that i would buy a funky necklace and make it look aidel and she buys the same thing and it looks bummy - it's just that the shirt is too tight or something like that. yes, we are far from perfect and we always have to improve in the areas of modesty but we also have to always look appropriate because we are on show for the world. and yes, on a more individual level, you have to also look presentable so your husband/wife feels pride when they are around you - that you look good and put together - not to make yourself into a slut (pardon my french) but that shows that you want to dress well for your husband cuz you want to look good for him. (added bonus - shvuger will be proud too) And even more so, it's so imp to do this more in the home than outside. I have a teacher who has drilled into us that when we i'yh get married, we should take 5 min right before your husband comes home to make yourself attractive and presentable - it shows you care!<br />i don't know, maybe my views are a little warped and this is just an excuse for me to be a shopaholic and buy fun clothes but if it is with taste then gezuntaheit!! <br /><br />ohh and one more thing.......... why do so many girls walk the "bais yaakov shlump"? hold your head high, straighten your posture and already that will make a world of difference!<br />sorry for rambling!<br /><br />8/09/2006 1:51 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />ms shtark welcom back<br /><br />8/11/2006 1:54 PM <br /> nakedbochur said... <br />Eli: amazing as usual, keep them coming!!!<br /><br />8/11/2006 3:00 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Shevs - YOU may be a trophy, but the very thought that any person (man or woman) is valued for their looks alone is problematic. Obviously, as others noted, there is a difference between put together and stylish on one hand, and revealing and enticing on the other. A women can be beautiful without flaunting it, to men or women. <br /><br />I would certainly be suspicious of a spouse's motives in encouraging such superficial behavior. It's probably just pushing the limits, but it's important that a couple recognize their motivations and not just unwittingly further degeration of values in the frum world.<br /><br />Unfortunately, even in the frum world, the spirit of the law is often lost. People think that wearing a skirt and a shaitel is enough in Gd's eyes, and the rest of the decisions are up to their whims. <br /><br />Eli, thanks for reminding us that we need to constantly be on the look out for what our real motivations are. Even if we aren't perfect, we can at least be aware of whether we are acting in a frum way or not.<br /><br />8/14/2006 9:47 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />looks like "somone" is on honey moon, hope u havin a great time see u after bein hazmanim lol<br /><br />8/17/2006 2:35 PM <br /> David_on_the_Lake said... <br />I'm a little late to the party...<br />I'm not quite sure what the issue is here..to be honest with you. I think it's wonderful that people are proud of their spouses. I'm proud of my wifes beauty and talents and she's proud to show off mine. Do we feel used..?? God forbid.<br />Someone who feels the need for his wife to dress provoctavely sounds like to me like a far deeper issue.<br /><br />8/20/2006 6:54 PM <br /> Der Roov said... <br />It seems like some people have no clue what the word Tznius means. Like the ones who like to write they dress "Tznius but stylish." Tznius is not a sleeve length. It's an attitude. If your arms are covered to your palms with a bright red, skin tight, leather bodice, and your legs with a floor length, but very tight dress of the same color, you may be covered, but you're not tznius by any means. There was never a levaya of a Yerushalmi old timer where the maspid said she was: "eesha chashuva shelavsha tznuah". Either she was an Eesha Tznua or she wasn't. The woman herself was a "Tznua", not her mode of dress. If she was covered head to toe in the typical moslem garb, while talking loudly on a cell phone, taking a short cut through the parking lot past the front door of the bais mederesh, it fails the tznius test. Anything a woman does to attract attention to herself in the presence of men shows a lack of tznius. If any of the women need further explanations, ask any 14 or 15 year old girl in Williamsburgh, Viznitz, Kiryas Yoel, or New Square to explain it to you.<br /><br />8/20/2006 7:02 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />as i see tznius appaulingly reduced to the "women must not be seen by men" insanity.<br /><br />sickening.<br /><br />8/20/2006 9:59 PM <br /> Gavi said... <br />der roov has understood why I brought up the issue of tznius.<br /><br />8/21/2006 12:21 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />I think the roov is such a freakin gaylord<br /><br />8/21/2006 2:46 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />anon, from what i know of elisheva she really would not apriciate you putting such mean spirited and derogatory comments toward someone on her blog. <br /><br />speak respectfully please.<br /><br />(and elisheva, again please excuse my forwardness in saying this instead of waiting for you to say it)<br /><br />8/23/2006 9:08 PM <br /> trixies86 said... <br />before we worry about weather we are trophies to our husbands maybe we should think wheather deep down we want to be trophies to them, wheather they are trophies to us, and wheather we are trophies to ourselves (do we show ourselves off).<br /><br />8/26/2006 11:56 PM <br /> MeabedAtzmo said... <br />Actually SEm you make great points and raise very valid questions. Guys whos wives are currently not much to look at are nicshal in looking at other guys wives all the time, although this is exactly what the aseres hadibros speaks about(as forbidden I may add). Are there any easy answers? I don't think so. iTs a personal war with the yetzer that we have to deal with and if a guy succeeds in shmiras Aynayim he is like a tzaddik ,if not his life is hell no matter which way you slice it. If you look you just want more of what you cant have, and if you act on it in any variety of ways, you have hell in this world and the next. So whats the eytzah? therapy? counseling? Divorce???? no easy way out and no easy answers .... Damned whatever you do..<br />oh well thats life hehehhe<br /><br />8/30/2006 12:03 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />i'm kinda worried about elisheva, hope she comes back soon. I think everyone misses her.<br /><br />9/11/2006 10:51 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Keshiva v'chsima tova to one and all.<br /><br />9/18/2006 1:02 PM<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-6859869812566737608?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-87054010870818484932008-09-24T23:11:00.000-07:002008-09-24T23:13:57.207-07:00175 Comments:<br /> Anonymous said... <br />Wow, I'm first!<br />Mazel Tov again.<br /><br />2/08/2006 8:38 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Elisheva, that was so personal, it was touching. Well, at least as personal as you can be while remaining anonymous! You writing described the feelings that confront a Kallah very well. You're aware of everbody around you, and of your own thoughts and needs, and your honesty in everything is inspiring. I am glad that we will continue to benefit from your insights into growing into the religious responsibilities that we all face. <br /><br />I look forward to sharing in all your future Mazel!<br /><br />2/08/2006 9:13 PM <br /> Chillin in The Lake said... <br />Elisheva, Im so happy for you. Very well said. Hope to hear more from you...<br /><br />2/08/2006 10:42 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />tx tons for your sharing your feelings & simcha with us, i m a guy but ill admit to having tears in my eyes while reading, (it seems u did not aprecate the idea of a "shower" from us) also being i figured u r smart enough do handle this on your own i havent commentad on the issue ifu shoud share your blog with hubby, but i did talk to a bachur in shiduchim now a realy fine yeshivish fellow, who knowsnothing about blogs etc i explaind it to him & askd how he would feel i was surprised but he said it would not mean to him that the girl is "kalye" ,so it seems guys r not so closed minded after all,<br /><br />2/08/2006 10:50 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />oy vey i smell the end of blog is near shevy if u r going to live in lakwood, the schools wont accept your children if u have internet acces,<br /><br />2/08/2006 10:53 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />very well written. i was esp. touched about what you wrote; not forgetting your single friends. you know it's funny - right out of seminary it is kind of a race to get engaged the first in the grade and then once the first 10 have gone, there is no race and then sadly you begin to really appreciate your friends and really feel simcha as you get to age 22 and 23. and wow that is not even old.... i am so happy for you. you sound so fresh and eager, just like a kallah should be. all the best!!!<br /><br />2/08/2006 11:04 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />congradulations are in order. i think you finaly made it a GIRLS ONLY blog. i can't think of anything you wrote thsat would interest any self-respecting guy. so mazal tov, good-bye, and i did enjoy the good parts of your blog while it lasted.<br /><br />2/08/2006 11:07 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Sorry, I didnt make the #1 spot, again. You did email me before posting and I really appreciate that. Unfortunately, I checked my email many times this afternoon, but went out to eat tonite and then attended a phenomenal lecture afterwards. Since I'm falling asleep as I am writing this I will have to continue tommorrow..<br /><br />2/08/2006 11:48 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Where is bmgb? I am shocked he didnt post first. Anyways Mazel tov again and good luck.<br /><br />2/09/2006 1:09 AM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />Thank you for writing so personal, interesting, witty, and LONG! I enjoyed reading it, and thanks for writing so sensitively to the singles! FOR ONCE WE GOT RECOGNITION! THANKS! It feels gr8!<br />Hatzlacha in everything! Keep us posted!<br />P.S.<br />I shared your feelings about the issue of telling him / sharing with him all your online stories like your blog etc. It's good that you told him a little background, but yet not EVERYTHING, like some people suggested here.<br /><br />2/09/2006 9:41 AM <br /> On The Derech said... <br />Elisheva, <br />Iy'h everything should continue smoothly and you should always be as happy as you are now! Are you going to have internet when you get married??<br /><br />2/09/2006 2:08 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Josh - As usual, such nice comments and you really are a dear to say such nice things about me. And is that your pic? I like it. You will make someone real lucky one day...<br /><br />Chillin, thanks. <br /><br />s.f. - Firsy of all the 'shower' idea was real cute. I just think it could really happen. But it was an idea... About the bachur you spoke to, I guess we are over stereotyped. Like I think people think all frum BY girls would not be like me, nor would my chosson be as tolerant as understanding as I think he is. Just goes to show. And heads up all you girs looking for a normal guy! Sounds like s.f. has one here...<br /><br />Ms. Shtark and Special - Thanx. It's weird that you say I am being okay about the singles issue. Like I so feel I am one of them. Just because I B"H got such a gift from Hashem does not make me a different person or change everything I felt and believed until now. Whatever i thought about singles until now, I still feel in me. I hope I always do.<br /><br />Geshmaker - I take that as a compliment!<br /><br />As far as internet in our home... It's under thought and discussion I guess.<br /><br />Last but not least, SemGirl - You can post whenever you want. It's what you say not what number comment it is. I hope you rested well. You deserve it. Can't wait to hear from you, ans yes, to get to my e-mailing...<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/09/2006 2:53 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />my darling elisheva, beautiful post, so so sweet.<br /><br />2/09/2006 3:22 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />you know who i am don't you?<br /><br />2/09/2006 3:25 PM <br /> Bracha said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />That was such a lovely post.... So heartwarming.. I can just imagine sitting next to you and hearing you say exactly what you wrote...It was from the bottom of your heart..<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />Bracha<br /><br />P.S. What about my email?<br /><br />2/09/2006 3:57 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />brachale, be so kind and send me an email, so that i too can have the honor of making a connection with you. shtaiger@gmail.com<br /><br />2/09/2006 4:14 PM <br /> Mata Hari said... <br />Eli - you have a gift for expressing yourself in writing. Everything you said rang true.<br />Thanks for sharing.<br /><br />2/09/2006 4:36 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />yes that was a compliment, i think your blog i finaly where you wanted it to be.<br /><br />shtaiger: are you who "I" think you are?!?!<br /><br />2/09/2006 5:46 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />hey geshmaker, thought you were done with this blog!! just couldn't stay away, huh???<br /><br />2/09/2006 6:12 PM <br /> Lvnsm27 said... <br />Beautiful post, thanks for sharing<br /><br />2/09/2006 7:46 PM <br /> Okee said... <br />your post was so real and true -i really enjoyed reading it. It sound as if you are really tuning into your heart, head and soul. Kudos-it's not always so easy to do that. mazel tov, and may you be as wise in all your future decisions.<br /><br />(I don't know about you, but decision making is the worst!)<br /><br />2/09/2006 7:57 PM <br /> eli said... <br />Elisheva, I have to take strong objection. You are by no means a "plain girl", why would you say that for. And I highly doubt that those girls "on a higher level", come up to your toenails in Chesed and sensitivity.<br /><br />2/09/2006 8:40 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Ivnsm - Thank you.<br /><br />Okee J - Welcome to our little blog family here. And thank you too for those comments.<br /><br />Seems like I was able to put some of my thoughts down properly. The truth is, when I try, it like doesn't work. It's when I'm all emotional and just want so badly to convey my thoughts and at the same time my enotions, and I just let it all out, that it works. B"H, I am glad, and I hope to be able to post about some of the issues I mentioned in the right way too.<br /><br />Eli - that is so sweet of you. Okay I will grant that I try to be a mentch and do chessed and stuff. But I totally admit there are girls who do that too and manage a level I envy.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/09/2006 10:02 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />did u mean to type it could"not" realy happen ? btw i m awed by the self control u & sg have as not to meet each other, do u ppl even know each others last name? & about the bachur i dont mind if there is somone here looking for a long term r"y future, i m quiet close with the guy, & know his fam. so let me know any of u lol<br /><br />2/09/2006 10:55 PM <br /> Pragmatician said... <br />Well written, keeping your anonymity yet giving away the details that matter without the necessity to identify anyone in particular.<br />I don't know about housework, I think it's combinable with a part time job, but if you plant to rent a huge house that might not be true.<br /><br />2/10/2006 10:41 AM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />This post has been removed by a blog administrator.<br /><br />2/10/2006 10:58 AM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />geshmaker, who do you think i am?<br /><br />2/10/2006 10:59 AM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />oy shtaiger - BEHAVE<br /><br />2/10/2006 11:07 AM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />whats your problem?<br /><br />2/10/2006 12:24 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />whats your problem?<br /><br />2/10/2006 12:24 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Please, I don't want to have to delete comments. I love everyone's input, but like in a nice way. It's best all around.<br /><br />Thanks prag, and no, we just plan on renting a basement, so I hope it won't be too much.<br /><br />Good Shabbos and Shalom<br /><br />2/10/2006 2:25 PM <br /> chanie said... <br />i don't know if i already said this or not, but mazel tov to you, and i hope you enjoy many long happy years together. you sound very happy...good luck with your shaitel (i have the same problem as you...i dread wearing one!)<br /><br />2/11/2006 8:57 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />i m sorry for posting as anon but i couldent get myself to say this any other way but u have got yourself aspot in my heart & since your engagmeant i have been saying a kapitel thilim evrey day for your future succes, (i generaly do this for a fam. member )being i wont know the day of marreige i guess ill say the whole thing, best whises & may the 2 of u always find favor in each others eyes,& have many children, with the wealth to sustain them,& lots of nachs & good health, & all your hearts desires for ruchniyus & gasmyus should be fulfilld<br /><br />2/11/2006 10:16 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Chanie, you're so welcome! And at least I am not alone in the sheitel thing...<br /><br />Anon, gosh, that was sooo touching. I have no way to thank you. This is like something that can never be repayed. It may sound funny, but I also have a lot of people that I know from the blogs in mind in my tefillos. Even though i don't know names or like exact details, I feel thier emotion and daven for things to work out by them.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/12/2006 12:00 AM <br /> chanie said... <br />what do you mean, 'ur so welcome', just out of curiosity...<br /><br />2/12/2006 12:55 AM <br /> The Real Neo said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />Mazel tov, mazel tov! I haven't been to your blog in a long time. The content early on was not shayach for me to see (not a judgement). <br /><br />I read this post about your enggement, thoughts on your chosson, IM"Y your marriage, frumkite, this blog....and I just want to tell you your entry is inspiring in its sincerity. The love and respect and hope you show for yourself, others and the world are truly fantastic and not much seen in such a synical world.<br /><br />It is also quite amazing how your sincerity and pureness of emotion and description of experience such as trying on your gown can reach even male readers who can experience nothing like it yet feel true joy for you.<br /><br />I had hoped this comment to be more elegant but alas, not so. I want to thank you for showing that such qualities do indeed exist in this world. I want ot thank you for being a shining example of what a frum jew should be in terms of being a lght and being able to have people of all levels, genders and hashkafas relate to you and most importantly, well, at least importantly, thanks for reminding a synical old fella like myself that i can still be truly happy for someone else.<br /><br />you should merit to have a lovig, fulfilling and always growing marriage towards echother, towards your fellow jews and of course, Hashem.<br /><br />2/12/2006 8:27 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Chanie, it was just like for your Mazel Tov wishes and your words on my blog. Maybe it was the wrong term. Like they say, whatever, lol...<br /><br />Tailor, you left me speechless. Maybe I should just stop at that. I feel humbled because I don't see myself the way it sounds here, but it is so nice to know if I am doing the right thing and making a kiddush Hashem. I won't deny it is a very good feeling.<br /><br />As far as some of the qualities you describe, some say today it isn't too good because you can get hurt that way. I try not to be naive but to still keep like upbeat. It isn't easy and for that I have to thank a few role models, who I can't name here, but they would shocked to know how their attitudes have affecting me, even though they probably wouldn't dream that like anybody took notice of the way they are.<br /><br />Okay, I have to go. Snowman building time again! This time it looks like good potential...<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/12/2006 9:55 AM <br /> Eshet Chayil said... <br />I haven't had tome to post on other people's blogs, but I wanted to tell you (since I'm snowed in) that this was an amazing post. Hoep you're doing well, and stay always as sweet as you are.<br /><br />2/12/2006 11:18 AM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Dont worry, I haven't forgot.. working on it right now..<br /><br />2/12/2006 11:25 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Wow this post is really drawing out all the mushy comments. On a side note maybe Semgirl and Elisheva should get together for a snowball fight today. Maybe you can even invite some of the other female bloggers to participate.<br /><br />2/12/2006 3:49 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />great idea, where will we meet?<br /><br />2/12/2006 4:44 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Why is everything so quiet today.. Did you have a snow day today, Shev..<br /><br />2/13/2006 3:41 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />This post has been removed by a blog administrator.<br /><br />2/13/2006 4:02 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />hey chanie, can you please send me an email at shtaiger@gmail.com. you dont give your email address in your profile just that funny website, so if you email me ill get it thanks.<br /><br />2/13/2006 4:05 PM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />so shtaiger - who actually ARE you?<br /><br />2/13/2006 4:11 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />No, they had yeshiva today where I work, just no transportation and it was like a nightmare all the cropping off and everything. At least, i leave before pick up.<br /><br />The snowman didn't work out too well yesterday. The snow was too light and not sticky. A blog snowball fight would have been fun. I guess we'll do it after the shower idea...<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/13/2006 7:08 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />went tubing today - you should try that instead of a snowball fight!<br />so elisheva is there gonna be a single's table at your wedding? lol<br /><br />2/13/2006 7:22 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />anyone out there now im feeling lonely.<br /><br />2/13/2006 8:44 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />shtaiger are you someone else that we should know about<br /><br />2/13/2006 9:42 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Shtaiger, I do appreciate all kinds of thoughts and comments, but this is not a chat room. Okay?<br /><br />Ms. Shtark, tubing sounds like great fun! Only here with not too much privacy outdoors, I can't exactly even go sleding in the snow. Too many guys around to start like waiting for the one moment your skirt by mistake... you know. So until we make it a big trip, it will have to be more plain stuff.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/13/2006 10:52 PM <br /> Me said... <br />Hi Elisheva - I just wanted to wish you a BIG mazal tov!<br /><br />It's obvious that you and your chosson are communicating openly, which is the most important thing for a wonderful life together. And your comment about not needing to know every little irrelevant thing about your chosson (and vicec versa) is spot on. <br /><br />Keep your mind and eyes on the big picture - marriage and a happy Jewish life together - and the little annoying things, like sheitels and wedding seating plans won't aggravate or stress you too much.<br /><br />Live your lives for each other, Torah and Hashem - everything else is really irrelevant...<br /><br />2/14/2006 1:03 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Shtaiger why don't you get a life?<br /><br />2/14/2006 1:24 AM <br /> skibum said... <br />"can't exactly even go sleding in the snow. Too many guys around to start like waiting for the one moment your skirt by mistake... you know."<br />Your kidding.......!?<br />Ever hear of pants under your skirt... <br />Besides normally when you are tubing its sooooo cold you need three layers so everything is covered all the time<br />PS guys don't go to the ski slope to pick up s, thats done after in the bar<br /><br />2/14/2006 11:04 AM <br /> skibum said... <br />should be read as<br />PS guys don't go to the ski slope to pick up girls, thats done after in the bar<br /><br />2/14/2006 11:05 AM <br /> BZMGBIG said... <br />where did bmg-bochur dissapear to?<br />do you think he really gave up blogging?<br />or is he really....................you-know-who?<br /><br />2/14/2006 1:31 PM <br /> chaya goldie said... <br />So elisheve works for a yeshiva office.I don't understand how she can continue this blog with her chossen learning im BMG.All yungerleit must have premission to have internet from one of the four yeshiva poskim and I can't imagine them giving permission for the sake of this blog unless elisheve turns it into a mussar blog.I miss her already.<br /><br />2/14/2006 2:24 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />uh yeah, if your skirt flies up while tubing or skiing, i should hope it wouldn't be too attractive - like you should be wearing snow pants or sweatpants at the least! you get covered in snow cuz it blows all over you!! soory, i don't go to a bar after. but could use a really hot coffee or hot cocoa. whew, it was cold yesterday!!!!<br /><br />2/14/2006 2:26 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Elisheva, I really miss hearing from you. Hope all is well.<br /><br />2/14/2006 3:16 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />ms. shtark, you should definitely know of me. anyway, youre the one with a hidden profile.<br />elisheva, i didnt expect such sharp words from you. especially since you know who i really am.<br />any of you female skiers out there, please let me know when and where maybe we can arrange something.<br />love you all.<br /><br />2/14/2006 3:57 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />shtaiger - I have no clue who you are. Either you are trying to pull my leg and fool everyone reading here, or I am slow to pick up someone changing an identity. Either way, no I don't know you, and I'm sorry, but like this is still not a chat room. No offense. I just don't want it getting to silly and offensive remarks.<br /><br />Ms. Shtark and SkiBum - My parents say it is lo silbash to wear pants even for skiing. Maybe my chosson will let after we are married, but for now, that is out. And let me tell you, I once was skiing down a little hill here a little out, like by a side place, whatever, like a few years back, and I was wearing wool leg-warmers, and thick tights and then thick thigh-hi's on top, topped by socks under my boots, and I fell like pretty embarrassingly and my brother is like, "Elisheva! There are boys here!" I was like, so?<br /><br />So I learned to never take anything for granted. But maybe I am too suspicious. That would be a nice thought.<br /><br />SemGirl, I was busy and whatever. Hope to get to writing soon.<br /><br />Chaya Goldie (do I know you? guess you wouldn't know...) - hi. I don't have kids yet so like not in any schools. And besides no one exactly knows about my going online besides my chosson. If we decide we'll keep it, then no one will know, and like there are hundreds of people like that in Lakewood, we all know that, with or without the takanos. And if we decide no, then that will be that for now.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/14/2006 4:12 PM <br /> skibum said... <br />My parents say it is lo silbash to wear pants even for skiing.....?????????<br />You're joking! <br />Now I get it, like the woman in Trim Gym that doesnt own a pair of sweat pants, hot pants or even leggings and jogs on the treadmill in p-hose........ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww<br />Seriously you dont even have sweat pants for pj's?<br /><br />2/14/2006 5:44 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />Yes I have left blog world, but I'm returning to wish elisheva mazel tov, and also to mention that I am not shtaiger- ok geshmaker!<br /><br />2/14/2006 8:24 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />uh elisheva, do you wear pants to sleep at least?<br /><br />2/14/2006 8:28 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />shtaiger, don't know who you are - if you are geshmaker that is pretty sad and i don't care to know either. just be normal.<br /><br />2/14/2006 10:35 PM <br /> s.f said... <br />about having net at home after chasuna, imho, get out of here, no doubht we will miss u, but for your own selfish benefit it just aint worth it, but specificly keep in mind if u have it hubby to be will "chap" a gesmhak in it & u dont know where it can lead, it has a reputation of runing the best guys if u need refrences i can get them for u, its a danger for perfectly normal ppl the decison of course is yours (btw as a shalom bayis tip never tell hubby now or in future u r carfull for "his" ruchnyis guys dont take well to that<br /><br />2/14/2006 11:07 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Bmg bochur<br />what do you mean you came back to wish elisheva Mazel tov as i recall you already did that on her previous post. Unless you think you have a weekly obligation to wish her so again. Also if you left blogland how would you know what is being commented on the blogs? Something smells fishy.<br /><br />2/15/2006 6:32 AM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />i know i said i was leaving this blog, but i do check it out every now and then to see if it gets interesting.<br />so far not much. although "shtaiger" does seem like the frontrunner to try and fill the void left by BMGB's alleged reformation.<br /><br />above anon: what the heck are you doing up at 6:32 AM?!?! <br />unless you were up all night online ;) !!<br />and please don't tell me "some people get up early to learn" because i would hope someone who does that has more of a life then to be checking blogs at that hour of the day.<br />all that aside, good point!<br /><br />one more thing- how did a relatively innocent post about gowns and sheitels end up with guys looking up skirts on the slopes, and picking up girls at "the bar". <br />and elisheva, i would hope that even the most bored and desperate guy in world has something better to do then wait around in the snow, freezing his butt off waiting for the tiny chance he might get a long-distance,nano-second peek at your knees :).<br /><br />with that thought, maybe it's time i get back involved over here.<br /><br />2/15/2006 12:29 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />geshmaker, why is it time for you to get back involved, to put everyone in their place - so you can show everyone the light? that was of course not the main thread - i think i happened to mention that i went tubing so elisheva said that it can't be done in lakewood - not that you would be doing it on your front lawn anyways. but yeah, i agree with you it is quite pathetic if guys want to freeze to do that. very sad. like i only went down twice because it was so cold, i thought my toes and fingers would crack off.<br /><br />2/15/2006 1:20 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />hey people get a load of this one:www.shtaiger.blogspot.com!<br /><br />2/15/2006 3:10 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />i would like to publicly apoligize to BMG-Bochur for even hinting that he might be shtaiger. now that shtaiger has started his own blog, it is obvious that they are not the same person, and i would like to say I'M SORRY.<br /><br />i will not attack shtaiger on this blog as this is not the place for that.<br /><br />2/15/2006 3:44 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />wow geshmaker i am finally really impressed. if there is anyone who should be attacked it is shtaiger. come on, let me see you dish it out!<br /><br />2/15/2006 7:36 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />ms shtark, i'm surprised you fell for geshmaker's good-boy show. please don't mess around with me.<br /><br />2/15/2006 9:48 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />can't believe nobody visited my blog.<br /><br />2/15/2006 9:49 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Shtaiger its because your a sicko. Your blog is plain out sick.<br /><br />2/15/2006 10:37 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />shtaiger you piece of crap, i already "messed" with you about 6 hours ago but you apparently chose to "moderate" my comment and leave them off your blog. i can't say that this bothers me too much, as sure that everything i wrote was going through the mind of any normal person who read the pathetic perverted opening post of your very sad blog.<br />elisheva:<br />i'm sorry that i am bringing this to your blog, as that was not my intention originaly, but if shtaiger is going to moderate comments on that blog and only put in the ones that fit his/her agenda, i have to defend my reputation and let people know that i DID try to dish it out.<br /><br />2/15/2006 10:46 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />oh and one more thing...<br />i'm shocked that someone who has access to the internet can still be this desperate. GET A LIFE. and put up my earlier comment.<br /><br />2/15/2006 10:48 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />so elisheva are you getting married in bais faiga - or are there any other places to get married in lakewood?<br /><br />2/15/2006 11:31 PM <br /> kishkhed said... <br />rav miller has all the answers!<br />and me too of course<br />mazal tov<br /><br />2/16/2006 2:19 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Elisheva, married women are allowed to think for themselves. If hubby says he doesn't like what I am wearing or he objects to the sweatsuit I wear around the house, I tell him he doesn't have to wear it. I wear what is comfortable and practical for me to wear. As the one who is wearing it, only I know what that is.<br />In the long run, guys get bored with ladys who cant or wont think for themselves.<br /><br />2/16/2006 2:16 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Whew,anonmous you sound like a real "isha keshara haoshe rotzen baaloh".Please don't corrupt elisheve or any of us others out there.P.S. Can't you find a nicer way to let your husband know how much you want to wear it without being so abrasive?<br /><br />2/16/2006 2:43 PM <br /> chaya goldie said... <br />It is sad how women act as if their husbands don't have feelings.In general I think society berates men and particulary yeshiva bochrim and gives them so little credit for what they do.Imagine what would be said about a man who just sits around in pajamas all day and talks to his wife like anonamous talks to her husband.(while I'm sure there are men who do they wouldn't boast it)I would like like to make a long posting about we should apreciate and respect yeshiva bochrim (with all faults included) but don't want to hijack elisheves blog.<br /><br />2/16/2006 3:25 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />actually just want to give my opinion here. i am not married so i can't be a rebbetzin or anything but if you have an understanding relationship, and you respect each other, you would both be able to give in and state your opinions like adults (as you are). if he doesn't like you to wear hot pink, and you don't like a few of his ties, i think in a healthy relationship you would give in and follow each other's wishes. compromise is the word!! also, how on earth did we get to this topic anyways?<br /><br />2/16/2006 4:39 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />thanks for the support,chaya goldeleh, you're a great masculinist!!<br /><br />2/16/2006 5:07 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />I'm not abrasive with my husband at all. We are equals and partners. We respect each other greatly.Telling a kalla that she can think for herself and not be subservient to her husband is not corrupting her.<br />I have no desire to tell my husband what to wear. When I am forced to point out that his shirt is less than spotless, it really bothers me. If a person is old enough to get married, they are old enough to decide for themselves what to wear.<br /><br />Ms. Shtark, we got on this topic when Elisheva said she hopes her chossen lets her wear pants under her skirt for winter sports. If she's old enough to get married, she's old enough to dress herself. IYH, when you get married,you'll see that there's compromise and then there times where you just have to agree to disagree(which is also a form of compromise)<br />Chaya Goldie, in my experience,it's usually the opposite. It's the men who treat their wives like servants and expect to be served hand and foot. In some circles so many women work like dogs both in and out of the home just so he can learn. She serves him with Moonie-like devotion and he takes her for granted. Are you sure you're not really a man?<br />Lastly, anyone(man or woman) who doesn't think for themselves and have their own opinions is boring. A man who is secure within himself doesn't want a subservient wife who always agrees with him.<br /><br />2/16/2006 5:30 PM <br /> Flatbushyid said... <br />Anon above me<br /><br />I will just ask you what the torah meant when it says "vho yimshol bach" I am a married man and its nice for womwn to think we want real go getter wifes full of their own opinions, however I don't think that is a natural trait of women and don't think that helps the marriage. Of course their should be dialogue on both sides but certain final decisions should be the mans domain and certain ones the ladies. It sounds to me you don't agree to that statement. <br /><br />Gesh <br /><br />Did you see this apikorus, ben avaus's blog? <br /><br />ms stark<br /><br />How is everything?<br /><br />Elisheva<br /><br />I sent you an e mail mazal tov, now here is a public one, mazal tov, all the brechaos people wished you should be mekuim.<br /><br />2/16/2006 5:47 PM <br /> Chillin in The Lake said... <br />I am married and I can say some guys like very independant girls and some guys like a girl more dependant on him. <br />Anyway we all know that marriage is compromise but there can not be 2 kings in one castle the final word has to be someones. There will never be 2 people who agree on everything let alone a guy and girl. But there are issues (in each situation different ones) that there needs to be a final word. In halacha issues a wife can not tell a husband if you dont like it dont do it.<br /><br />2/16/2006 6:17 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />anon above flatbushyid, first of all i don't mean to say this in a rude way, but if you really do have your own opinion, why don't you sign a name? I know that screen names are also anonymous but once you blog a bit and sign with a certain name, you get yourself an identity and ppl get to recognize a bit of your personality. so just wondering why you don't sign (i am not saying this in an offensive way) <br /><br />i agree with you that sometimes you can agree to disagree but it should not be often. <br />also, i think it's ok to let your husband know if he spilled some coffee on his shirt. he is human and may not have noticed. <br />"in some circles so many women work like dogs both in and out of the home just so he can learn"<br /><br />you say "just" so he can learn like that's all he is doing with his time and he is wasting his time(i'd understand if he's drinking coffee the whole time). i know this will sound very idealistic but i mean it. Starting off a home learning is a plus and for the first years - it can only build a stronger foundation for a Jewish home, i would feel honoured to work (if i am able of course)so we can have a Torah atmosphere. And the men do a lot to help at home - a lot of them make suppers and help clean the house - you cannot generalize like that that women are slaves. yes it is a big sacrifice and it's not easy to work and then come home to kids and laundry but it's for a good purpose. of course when the time comes, if there are a few kids, and the wife can't work then i think it's time for the husband to go to work. <br />and yes, some things are in the men's domain and some for women. <br />fy, same old. everything is going great.<br /><br />2/16/2006 6:25 PM <br /> chaya goldie said... <br />to mrs. anon;perhaps if I was a man I would think differantly but I have heard too many women say they are doing things their husbands don't like (one is to many...).I don't think telling your husband that you don't have to wear it is the most gentle way to disagree with him,particularly if the issue is halacha (pants).While I obviosly don't speak for men I think human nature is that a husband does not want his wife to be dependent on him in some areas but doesn't want his authority challenged in others particullarly halacha.Since most men and women do try to be good spouses I regret starting this thread which will only cause problems and I will comment no further on it.<br /><br />2/16/2006 6:43 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Wow, MS.. I sincerely wish you get what you describe, with all my heart. But you really do need to live in Lakewood for a while and take off your rose-colored glasses.<br /><br />2/16/2006 6:49 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />In terms of pants and halacha there are valid opinions that allow for it and I only wear it around the house or in the gym.<br />And no, chillin, there cant be 2 kings in a castle. Thats why men and women are different. That doesn't mean that the king and queen cant rule together. If we disagree on an issue involving halacha, we call a rov. He can tell us if there is a valid halachic opinion that allows for something. If I need medical advice i call a Dr. If i need legal advice I call a lawyer. Thus couples always have whom to consult.<br />Chaya Goldie, this isn't the shtetel. Today's women are educated and often have their own careers. And, yes, alot of us want to learn more too. In the heim alot of women were illiterate. There was no such thing as wives working as programmers or accts. to support the husband or just to make ends meet. In todays society women and men are alot more equal. To ask a woman to go back 100 years when she goes home simply is not realistic.<br />Fltbushyid, some of us really are independent in personality and thought. Depending on whether a woman was encouraged to think for herself or not, it is indeed our nature.<br /><br />2/16/2006 7:40 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Okay, sorry for my long absence. Sometimes you accomplish things and sometimes you don't. I guess this was a hishtadlus week. Like tried on stuff, checked out stuff, and got very little. Oh well. I guess there is always tomorrow.<br /><br />About all the issues - First of all I'd like to give my opinion. I have e-mailed with shtaiger a little (I didn't realize it was him), and I think he is basically a nice guy and means well. I just think he doesn't know how to come across the right way. (sorry shtaiger, I just feel you will need to learn a little, no harm meant). So I do think his comments here were a little off, but let's hope he will limit it here to just comments on the issues. Obviously private e-mails are different where different things can be discussed that aren't apropriate in public.<br /><br />About the anonymous advice about the pants issue. First of all, like I agree with Ms. Shtark, it is so much easier if you use a name.<br /><br />Also, I think people so mix up being subservient and being a mentch and knowing your place. Chillin put it best I think and also Ms. Shtark. I am a pretty independent minded person I think and I think most readers of my blog will agree with that. But that does not mean I think that if I listen to what Hashem tells me then I am a subservient dog. <br /><br />I guess this needs like a post of its own. What I am saying is that I don't take just anyone's word for what it is Hashem wants of me. I look into stuff and ask questions and maybe the teachers here in the girl's high-schools don't like that. But I do.<br /><br />But you have to decide who you will trust and who's minhag or ideals you will follow and then listen even if you disagree! Like do I think I can pasken halacha? No I do not. Maybe I know what to ask, but I don't know how to pasken. So there can be no such thing as "I won't take such a p'sak." Once you ask the people you trust you have to listen, not because you are subservient, but like because it is my own ideal and I feel I should do that now.<br /><br />I know this is probably not halacha, the pants thing (or maybe it is? See how little I know...) But still, it is a way of living that you choose to live and a it is a feeling in yiddishkeit. And chillin is right, I hope my chosson will listen to me in things having to do with like what I know, but I will listen to him in things having to do with halacha for sure and even yidishkeit. Could it be that I will sometimes disagree? I guess so. But I choose who I will marry and it is someone I trust will make desicions I will belive he means for our good and then after I choose that, I have to learn to live with that. Otherwise like it can be all chaos with each spouse doing their own thing.<br /><br />Maybe this sounds idealistic, I can't say I know yet, but this makes sense to me. Like girls hear the word subservient and they get all hysterical, but like telling your husband you could care less for what he believes, like I don't see how that can be good for the marriage. Good for you maybe, but not like for the marriage. (Does it sound like I've been reading marrige books? I have, lol!)<br /><br />Like if he would tell me what material outfit will be most comfortable to wear, then it would be normal for me to tell him, I am wearing it so let me. If he still would care, then that is not the type of guy I would marry. But if he says he thinks it is not tzniusdik or allowed in halacha, then even if I don't think so, I will go with him. Now, before we got engaged, we checked to see that we are basically compatible in our beliefs and where we are heading. And I don't think he will go with all the things my parents did. But if we disagree on some things, I will willingly go with his opinion. That is being smart, not subservient, I think.<br /><br />Okay, enough of that. Ms. Shtark, I so hope you get what you wish for. You deserve it. And with all due respect to my dear friend SemGirl, Lakewood has like all types. Yes there are those who make you feel so like disillusioned, but I have a family where my brothers are in Yeshiva and my brother-in-law. And I know others too, friends family etc. There are truly those who do it, mean it, and have lives I so envy. I only hope we can be like them and not like the ones who make us lose faith.<br /><br />And at the risk of being a total neb, no, in our house the girls don't wear pajama pants either, only under a nightgown or nightshirt. That doesn't even bother me, I think is is more feminine. In the cold, like when skiing, or if I could go bike riding (I wish...) I would love to be allowed to do that with pants on underneath<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/16/2006 7:46 PM <br /> anonlady said... <br />ok everyone, i have a screen name.<br />A woman is supposed to be subservient to Hashem alone.<br />Unlike other religions, we do not worship a man.<br />As long as something is within the realm of halacha, it is mutar. My husband and I also have similar minhagim, so we basically agree. If he wants to take on a chumra, that doesn't mean I have to. We agree on that as well.<br /><br />2/16/2006 7:59 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />about pants well it is a halacha shaila, many (minchas yiotzchok for exam. for the guys here lol ) rule its not allowed, i actuley know first hand of a rav in lkwd that rules that way, so shevi m wondering who your dad asks lol<br /><br />2/16/2006 10:25 PM <br /> Jewboy said... <br />I really mean no offense, but the last post got really hard to read with all the likes. Perhaps after writing a post you should go back and erase all the likes. That would like help me like read your post so much like better.<br /><br />2/16/2006 11:12 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />elisheva, well said. <br />s.f. - pants is a halacha shaila and everyone should follow their rav (or find a rav that will give them the answer they want!! lol)<br /><br />semgirl - i may sound idealistic - i know i do slightly, but there are guys out there like that. i have brothers who live like that. they have tremendous respect for their wives and they do a large part of the house work as well to help. no, they don't live glamorous lives but they have meaning to their lives. i see it first hand. i also work in the professional world with irrelgious and non - Jewish ppl and i see that wealth and glamor does not guarantee happiness - all the fancy dinners and cruises and newest ski equipment cannot give you a happy home - all that glitters is not gold. It's the ideals that a marriage is built on that counts. <br />yes, a home like that may seem to have less glamor (and i am finding that most learning boys may be less sophisticated because they are less out there in the world but it's healthy for a marriage for the guy to be less worldly. he will have less of a wandering eye and less to compare his wife to). <br />anonlady - thanks for giving yourself a "name". yes we are only subservient to Hashem to the highest extent. But you are answerable to your husband and he to you - part of the give and take relationship. <br />ok, i will stop my drasha. just my thoughts for the night.<br /><br />2/16/2006 11:12 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />check out this video:<br />http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3359871752807944339<br />its great- and watch it to the end, its about 60 seconds, about giving some time to your kids. its a great lesson.<br /><br />2/17/2006 1:02 AM <br /> Chillin in The Lake said... <br />Anonlady what is the realm of halacha???? Im sorry but there are many places where there are different ways to pasken and different Poskim have different psokim (a tounge twister). So by you as long as someone holds like you, you can go after that way, even if your husband would hold otherwise. Well, BH in most frum torah observing homes where there is Yiras Shomayim, you would follow a specific rav and the way the husband would hold (which should be the same), being there are many different ways to follow. Im not talking about chumros Im talking Halacha. (Besides who decides whats halacha and whats a chumra?) I dont want to be mean but Torah and Halacha is not a Dr. or Lawyer. If one is no good find another. Its not the cleaners, if one cant get the stain out take it to another. It does not work that way, you can be playing with fire.<br /><br />Elisheva, pants are a Halacha sheila disscused by many poskim. BH you seem to get it, that as in your parents home you followed whomever your father held was the proper way, so too in your future home with your husband it will be who he feels will be his Halachic authority. Good for you. There are so many more important things in life, you have a good attitude towards things that some people get all worked up over. Especially in Halacha issues, if your brought up with Yiras Shomayim you learn not to shop heterim or get upset when a psok is not the way you wanted. (BTW I allow my wife to wear pants under a skirt because thats how my Rav holds.) I also feel the same about girls who dont want to follow, in what their eyes looks to be more leinient. Halacha is one of the foundations of a jewish home. <br />Sorry I went long.<br /><br />2/17/2006 1:07 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Gosh, just got caught in the rain on the way home. Totally not prepared. Came outside, it was like sunny and a second later - pouring! Now that can get embarrassing...<br /><br />Anyway, I didn't have to go right in to the erev Shabbos preparations cause I had to come up to change, so I can steal a few minutes for my blog!<br /><br />AnonLady (and thanks for the name), I posted right after you did and didn't see your latest comment when I did. I don't think what I was referring to really was what you meant. I think you are coming from a very different outlook than a lot of us here on this blog and surely me.<br /><br />A lot of what you say is true, but like up to a point. I just don't see what all the today, society, and all that stuff has to do with anything. Again, I am not exactly the defender of frum yiddishkeit here, but I do belive in stuff even though I am maybe not the typical perfect girl. Still I think we have a way of life which can be beautiful. I stress can be, because trust me, I so know about the fakers here and the ones who do it just because it is an easy and lazy lifestyle for them. But the ones who take it seriously are not drinking coffee all day and are putting in hours and hours of mental exertion and then still helping loads at home with housework and I know a few younger ladies, some from my office and others like family, whose husbands stay up at night with the baby and they say that it is a lifesaver. Okay, so I am talking about those who are doing it for real.<br /><br />Getting back to my point, people say some things over and over and it is repeated like as if it means anything here. Like today is different. Women are educated. They are doctors and lawyers. Fine. So I am pretty smart too I think (and oh so humble, lol!) and got a pretty intensive education. Does that make me a posek? Does being the top doctor make a lady a posek? Or because she is a top lawyer? Like would a lawyer operate on himself because he is a top lawyer? I know this is an emotional issue, but let's put aside our feminine side and use some logic here. (It's hard, I admit, I am not too rational when I get all mushy about something. Ask any of my brothers, a whole day all I get is eye-rolling and "there she goes again. You're not thinking!")<br /><br />My point is you go to a doctor for medicine like regardless of how smart, emancipated or educated you are. So psak is for poskim and it is the husband's realm of things according to the Torah. I am almost positive (guys, mekoros please...) it says specifically that a woman should follow the husband's minhag. And isha k'sheira and all that. So where it is style or taste, okay, we can say this is me and why should he care (obviously not counting when we are dressing for him, let's say we are talking about when we are home alone doing housework). But if he says that the Rav he asks says it is not good in halacha, then telling him where he could go is having two kings in one castle and I can't see that it is a healthy attitude.<br /><br />Of course we marry a guy we trust will ask normal poskim and not follow every 'latest' chumra in yeshiva (my chosson has told me some real doozers!) And we should have dialogue and discuss our feelings so he understands why we are doing things and I guess the other way around too. But when it happens that there is a disagreement, what being educated or the shtetl has anything to do with this is like so beyond me.<br /><br />Okay, I should be changed by now and have to go pick some stuff up still for Shabbos. They are calling. Sorry about the 'likes'. I know it was very bad last time. I was writing in a hurry and it happens then. I meant to go it over, but had no time and figured better to just post.<br /><br />Shalom and Good Shabbos,<br /><br />2/17/2006 12:54 PM <br /> wannabe said... <br />from http://jdatersanonymous.blogspot.com/<br /><br />"Romancing the Bloggers... <br /><br />For many people, the question is, "would you date someone who has a blog?" The implication is that said person who has a blog will undoubtedly blog in some way about your relationship. But increasingly, for bloggers, the question is morphing and becomes "would you date someone who didn't have a blog?"<br /><br />Over at WebProNews, Ken Yarmosh talks about why he'd like to date women bloggers:<br /><br /><br />It may sound funny but blogging may actually help foster more successful dating relationships. Why? Well just take a look at their blog either before or after a date and you'll begin to get a pretty decent picture of their beliefs, ideology, and interests. If their blog exists in a social environment like MySpace or Xanga, you can also get a pretty good idea as to who they are "interacting" with on a regular basis - yeah, I'm probably going to stay away from the girl who has tons of comments from other guys, she may be a bit too flirty. Would I date someone who doesn't have a blog? Yes, I guess I would. But blogging is attractive. It means the wheels are turning upstairs. It shows that someone is observant, pensive, and engaged in their world. "<br /><br />2/17/2006 1:21 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />100!!!<br /><br />2/17/2006 1:23 PM <br /> chanie said... <br />where is everyone tonight??<br /><br />2/18/2006 10:14 PM <br /> skibum said... <br />"Of course we marry a guy we trust will ask normal poskim and not follow every 'latest' chumra in yeshiva (my chosson has told me some real doozers!)"<br /><br />The best is when men come home with chumras' just for their wives (stuff that dont effect them) and they themselves are maikel (like, you cant wear pants which doesn't effect him)<br /><br />2/19/2006 11:51 AM <br /> s.f. said... <br />ms shtark, were u just being agreeble or did i miss somthing?<br /><br />2/19/2006 10:30 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />s.f., sorry i am a bit confused. what are u referring to? do i detect a note of cynicism?<br /><br />2/20/2006 9:33 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />skibum-how would you react if your husband decided to wear a kilt from now on?<br /><br />2/20/2006 2:25 PM <br /> skibum said... <br />Anonymous said...<br />wtf? Is that a chumra? <br />A kilt to bed would be nice, as is pants to bed<br /><br />2/20/2006 6:37 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Check this one out :<br /><br />http://www.covermyhair.com/<br /><br />2/21/2006 3:04 PM <br /> Datingmaster, Jerusalem said... <br />we really love you and care about you and share your joy<br /><br />2/22/2006 2:58 AM <br /> s.f. said... <br />ms. shtark, well i did not relize what u added to what i wrote,(unless did it seem i was saying its defntly not allowed? it was not meant that way at all)u detect well btw,<br /><br />2/22/2006 10:56 PM <br /> s.f said... <br />elisheva, (if u r still reading & not in the middle of sheva brochos ) get ahold of r millers book a career of happines, its a great book about builing a jewish home, also if i may , my feeling is it would be of great benefit, for boy& girl getting marreid aside the regu. kallah class/ choson shmuss, for each of them to hear it from the other sides point if i m not mistaken there is a chsuve kollel fellow u feel close to if i were u i would ask him for a "talk" in prepairing for your future, g luck (i know u r prob. getting loads of advice from 1 & all, i had a freind a alter bachur when he finally got engaged, all his buddys were giving him sholom bayis tips, he told me i was so confused, what to do i had no idea but i sure know evreyones problems lol, but figured ill throw my 2 sence in anyhow)<br /><br />2/22/2006 11:03 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />This post has been removed by a blog administrator.<br /><br />2/22/2006 11:26 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />MS why did you delete your last comment you made a very salient point..<br /><br />2/23/2006 7:00 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />just wanted to omit something there. <br />sf, i was agreeing with you when u said that if u want 2 know what's right, then you have to ask a rav (but once you ask you gotta follow what he says:-)<br />i did not think you were saying that pants are defitely not allowed (certainly hope not).<br /><br />2/23/2006 7:39 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />To all my readers and e-mail friends. No, I am not in middle of sheva brachos, lol! Not until after Purim. I just had a very hectic week. B"H accomlished and learned a lot. I still hope to post again. I really hope I will have the time.<br /><br />I also hope to answer e-mails. They do mean so much to me and I learn a lot. I just can't always get online to respond and stuff.<br /><br />MS. Did you make a point that I missed? You have great things to say always. I so hope to write you soon. And SG soon too!<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/23/2006 7:40 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Oh, I am so happy to see you back here. I am very busy too, so much that they are making assumptions on my blog, lol.. But I am never too busy to hear from you..<br /><br />2/23/2006 9:07 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />check this out<br />http://yeshivasociety.blogspot.com/2006/02/power-to-decide.html<br /><br />2/24/2006 10:00 AM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Why is everything so quiet today ??<br /><br />2/26/2006 1:37 PM <br /> skibum said... <br />because you and le7 have gone off to bigger and better things<br /><br />2/26/2006 2:59 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />I need some help here... When asking shidduch info about a girl a friend of mine was told one of her "maylos" is she's a "muchna?" which i guess would mean obedient or submissive. Is that a quality ??? is that what we want our girls to be ?? why is that a mayla?!?<br /><br />2/26/2006 5:36 PM <br /> chaya goldie said... <br />It probaly depends on who you ask.Can't he decide on his own what type of girl he is looking for?<br /><br />2/26/2006 6:18 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Limey, it sounds like you may actually be one of the smarter boys out there.Unfortunately, many BMG "top boys" (SIC), feel that girls who aren't meek and docile are "tough girls" . <br /><br />That is, when these bochurim are 22, then 10-15 years later they are moaning and groaning, "my wife can't think for herself, I wish she could just make a lil decision in the grocery by herself, without asking me every lil thing" .<br /><br />I wish you and your friend all the best in choosing a Shidduch wisely.<br /><br />2/26/2006 9:24 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />SG the info came from another woman, why would a woman(rebitzen) think its a mayla??<br /><br />2/27/2006 10:15 AM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Please tell me you aren't serious. Every single Shadchan, I have ever spoken to said to me "You don't want to appear too aggressive or domineering". If anything the men occasionally, say it ok to have a mind of your own on some things.<br /><br />2/27/2006 10:28 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />I'm serious, <br />I was gonna go off on a tangent that, thats what the mechanchos want nowadays docile little baby making lambs with the "elites" running the show but i hope sincerely that this is an exception<br /><br />2/27/2006 2:34 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Have been so absent, but to jump into this fray...<br /><br />I think it really depends on the context of the word "muchna". It does sound pretty werid and frummy-frummy that way, and then SG is totally right.<br /><br />But perhaps the woman who said it is not good with words. because in a certain way, like were were discussing before with listening to your husband if he doesn't let you wear pants and that other woman said she's tell him where to go, so like there i would be "machnia" to my husband and she would not. But not becuase i am a docile little lamb with no mind of her own, but because I believe it is healthy for the marriage and the Jewish way.<br /><br />On the other hand I think her attitude was NEVER to be "muchna" and that can cause problems and friction. So like maybe you have to clarify. Did she mean she has no mind and will ask him before every thing she eats, "What's the bracha," and what should we buy and everything like that etc. Or does she mean that she knows when she must also listen to another opinion and not think the world revolves like just around her and what she thinks and feels.<br /><br />Hope to post again soon. (Really, lol)<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/27/2006 3:37 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />"because I believe it is healthy for the marriage and the Jewish way"<br />The Jewish way? do you mean not to question the chumra's? not to question a teacher. Check out what happened to this lass....<br />http://frustratedfrumchick.blogspot.com/<br />(btw I'm not talking about emunas chachomim)<br /><br />2/27/2006 6:24 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Why do you seem to have an agenda? Like I never said that. I said there are two sides. You seem to only see one dimension.<br /><br />Sure I can question my teachers and all the chumras. Like if you read my blog, I am not exactly against questioning. But like after I question, if I get an answer, even though I may not like it, I have the hachna'a to know that it is the right thing to listen. If there is no good answer, then of course that means it is someone's made up chumras and not for me or anyone. But if there is an answer (and yes, like sometimes there are, even if we are not on the mood for them), then listening and being humble is a good Jewish trait. Saying like I will tell him where to go, in such a case, is not.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/28/2006 12:04 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />The question is, if your teacher, husband, parent says you must do it because it says so in such and such sefer <br />(not a mainstream halacha sefer like the MB but like a neturei karta sefer and the like) would you listen because its the right thing to do or question its validity (every chumra has a mekor! (and if it doesn't i can make it up)<br />Are you gonna follow every chavas daas in hilchos niddah? or are you gonna say what does the Rov say.<br />My agenda is that unqualified teachers etc. quote halachos lechemura because they are ignorant and lack proper training to teach these halachos (or anything for that matter but thats a different subject) A story which comes to mind. My brother in law went to a yeshiva high school and the rebbe decided he's gonna teach the class what it means to have a rov (daas torah, emunas chachomim) with him as the Rov of course so he taught them hilchos shabbos with all types of chumras which made no sense, he obiviously had no shimush in that area at all. Now his father was in a pickle, he was of the mind that you never contradict a teacher but even when the guy spouts pure nonsense???<br />My other agenda is that so many people are writing halocho seforim that they seem to get a masochistic pleasure out making "gedarim". which brings to mind the famous story of the Netziv and the shoes.... Nowadays they are gonna ask these guys "where are the shoes"....<br />just remember one thing Ko'ach d'hetairah Adif!! it's not a "kuntz" to assur anything<br /><br />2/28/2006 10:30 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Gosh, you must be hurting, I so agree with you on all this. Like totally! But you are so upset, you are not thinking.<br /><br />WHen you got information on this girl, no one said (or at least that you posted here) that she is "muchna" to every crazy chumra or even normal ones but ones a normal Rav says we don't have to do. That's my point, that it just depends. A normal girl can be "muchna" to like you yourself said when they ask a normal Rav and he says this is a thing that should be done and is not some far-fetched chumra. So then there is also the thing of being "muchna" to the rav and not saying, let's say, "My father didn't do it, so I will tell you where to go." If it is a normal minhag and a normal Rav says it is, then a girl can be "muchna" in a very good way, which, yes, is definitley a plus I think.<br /><br />I totally agree if she is some nebby frummy and is muchna to every chumra someone might dig up, then it is a big chisaron. It just depends.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/28/2006 2:27 PM <br /> yehuda said... <br />From my experiance most people who make fun of chumros do so because they are either unfamilar with the kloley horah or simply don't care too much about halacha anyhow.Whether I follow it or not rarely have I seen a chumrah with widesread acceptance amongst any group of frum yidden that does not have merit and extreme care should be taken with how we talk about them.Since this is a girls blog it is inapropriate to elaborate on the above over here.<br /><br />2/28/2006 3:31 PM <br /> yehuda said... <br />I hope I didn't offend anyone with my last sentence.I just meant that a girls blog is not the place to elaborate on klloley horah.I apoligize if offended anyone.<br /><br />2/28/2006 3:35 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />Yehuda, i am not making fun of chumros just those who impose them on others, "klolley ho'raah" has nothing to do with this. I;m complaining about those who have never had shimush and wouldn't know a p'sak if they saw it in MB with english translation<br /><br />2/28/2006 3:57 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />k that was annoying just tried to post something and it didn't work so here goes again. <br />limey, did your friend go out with her? was she muchna in a postive way? was he even able to tell?<br />k, i know i am being nosy but i basically agree with elisheva here. u really have to find out in what context she is a "muchna".<br />Maybe ask for an example that would explain the term in context with the potential shidduch. Is she a muchna in her overall personality? is she muchna in her emunas chachamim - not that one has to follow every chumra but one should not try to be finding every single kulah out there either. is she muchna to her parents and behaves with appropriate kavod to them (of course once she is married, they would be following their husbands first but a girl with kibud av vaem is a mailah) is she muchna to others when in a disagreement and has nothing to lose by admitting the other person is right and being mevater to keep the peace? it is all in the context. what does being a muchna mean??!!<br /><br />2/28/2006 5:46 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Ms. Shtark, so well put. Exactly what i was trying to say, but said so much better. Thanx.<br /><br />Yehuda, the apology was cuter than the line you were refering to. It's okay, I get what you mean, but you are right. I can see some girls who's blood boils when then read such a sentence, and one is a girl who is a dear blog friend, SemGirl! (Just teasing!)<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/28/2006 5:58 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />limey: "Nowadays they are gonna ask these guys "where are the shoes"...."<br />ha'omer dovar b'shem omroh, meyvee g'eulah l'olam. <br />this is an old twist on the story with the netziv. it was not a "sharp line" made up by limey. legend has it that R' avrohom yehoshua S. (of brisk fame) said achar meah v'esrim when today's mechabrei s'forim show off their sfrorim they will be asked "un a'voo vennen a'yir shiech"!!<br /><br />2/28/2006 5:59 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />dont enjoy jumping in to the warzone but i do think that its brains for a girl to be "mahcnia" to her hubby in ares which he belong to him while she runs her life with her g-d given brain,in all other areas, its simply the need men have its calld male ego,girls let him live a chumra up or down is not worth , what respecting your hubby does for him, in all areas & u gain from it a loving hubby ,i may also add it makes for a better home envierment when the man& women feel there respectiv roles correctly,<br /><br />2/28/2006 10:34 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />Gesh, I didn't know r' AJ said it, and you're right i didn't make it up, wow you figured out that it was a twist on the story!!! good for you!<br /><br />3/01/2006 10:46 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />This post has been removed by a blog administrator.<br /><br />3/01/2006 10:49 AM <br /> chaya goldie said... <br />Given the chioce between risking being asked for a pair of shoes or risking being asked for my sefer I would rather risk the "shoe question" anyday.Thr main point of the many varaitions of the netziv story I heard was always meant to chide those who don't live their lives as productivly as they could not those who attempt to do something meaningfull and fail.Of course I know nothing about krummer seforim but the point remains.<br /><br />3/01/2006 2:53 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />lime, was that sarcasm or stupidity? with your usually eloquantly way of commenting i couldn't tell.<br /><br />3/01/2006 4:21 PM <br /> Mata Hari said... <br />geshmaker - that's eloquent<br /><br />3/01/2006 4:40 PM <br /> LakewoodWorkingGuy said... <br />Some people are no fun. Why can't they understand that sometimes a conversation invites a quick political jab at a present situation that is unfolding.<br /><br />3/02/2006 9:23 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Sorry, I had so little time for my blog lately. I really still do hope to post something soon.<br /><br />I deleted the last few comments. No offense LWG, I understand that it was meant as a pint, but I just would rather not go there. Especially now that I know something of what you guys are refering too, I just think this is not the place to discuss it. Thanx for understanding.<br /><br />About the shoe story, my chosson actually told me that line on a date! Isn't that a cute coincidence. He didn't say it in a way to critize chumros, but more to say that every person should use their full potential - and that isn't necessarily always in writing seforim or whatever. But maybe that's just the way I took it. <br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />3/02/2006 11:31 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />I was wondering when, we were to going to hear from you..<br /><br />3/03/2006 1:20 AM <br /> LakewoodWorkingGuy said... <br />Thats Ok, at least I vented a bit. It's out of my system now.<br /><br />3/03/2006 9:53 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />gesh-was facetious one of the choices?<br />ms. - i didn't bother following it up<br />le7- sorry, i forgot kalla's get wierd about it<br /><br />3/03/2006 12:13 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />LE7- I dont criticize chumros just those who enforce them on others.<br />I have a question for you, Hubby wants to be machmir and not carry in a "kosher" but allows his wife and children to carry....good so far? but then he wont carry the kicking screaming toddler who wont walk or push the double stroller that his 9 mo pregnant wife is pushing....<br />Whats better a)both should carry b)neither should carry c)the scene depicted is perfect d)none of the above?<br /><br />3/03/2006 1:12 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />e) Wait for some "bummy" girl to walk by, ask her to push the stroller and then look your nose down on her and talk about her behind her back, while she is still within earshot of you..<br /><br />3/03/2006 1:46 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />ROTFLMAO!<br /><br />3/03/2006 1:56 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />limey what does that mean? sorry i am ignorant.<br /><br />3/03/2006 3:09 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />http://www.e-consultancy.com/knowledge/glossary/969/rotflmao.html<br />LE7 DOESN'T LET NIVUL PEH ON HER BLOG<br /><br />3/03/2006 3:41 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Gosh, heating up again. Is it me?<br /><br />About your issue. I totally agree with you. Chumros can be very nice, but never when pushed on others. My brother-in-law always says, he heard from someone (I don't remember who) that you should worry about your own ruchnios and your friend's gashmius.<br /><br />About your question. It is silly I think. It is phrased in a way to make the answer only sound good one way. I am hardly a posek and know very little besides what I learned at home and in school, but "chumra" is a broad term. Like sometimes no chumra is more important than someone having a hard time. But some chumros are like more "Din" like this is the way that all the poskim in earlier generations went, so you can't just say well a baby is crying, so it is not important here. I guess you have to understand the psak, which I don't. I am just saying all chumros are not bad, what is bad is if you push it on others. If you happen to have a chumra that might make it hard on someone else, like your example where he is not pushing it but it makes it harder on her, then it really depends.<br /><br />Would you eat non-glatt kosher chicken because there are poor people out there and they can use the money? (I am not sure this is a chumra, sorry if I am wrong. I told you, I don't really know this stuff. I mean it as an example.)<br /><br />Good Shabbos and Shalom<br /><br />3/03/2006 3:44 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />thanks limey, semgirl e mailed me what it means. have a good shabbos<br /><br />3/03/2006 4:32 PM <br /> Datingmaster, Jerusalem said... <br />I wanted to know what is your highest number of comments on one post because I scored 487<br /><br />3/05/2006 4:36 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Congadulations but the ends don't justify the means...I do however share your pain for your current difficult situation you are going throgh.May hashem guide you on the proper path and may your future be one of unlimiteded naches for you and him.<br /><br />3/05/2006 2:13 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />LE7- I tried hard to make picking any side a tough choice. I am not for either side. It is my understanding that there is in halocho that "you should be form on yenem'schesbon". Your example is interesting though, you do find especially in hilchos shabbos or basar v'cholov that bemokom hefesed meruba its muter or lekovod shabbos(or erev shabbos) <br />how about taking certain medication on shabbos? if it hurts enough you can, different people are affected differently by pain. in the case of the baby crying maybe there would be a heiter to use certain kula's.....<br />just some ramblings.....<br />so yes maybe i would eat a not glatt chicken to save MYSELF a buck... ;}<br /><br />3/06/2006 12:07 PM <br /> LakewoodWorkingGuy said... <br />RASHI in mesechta Betza 2b says that a person who is mekil is better off because he understands the kulah and has an understanding of the sugya but many a time the machmir is only machmir because he doesnt understand the sugya and its halachos.<br /><br />3/06/2006 2:49 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />While I won't question the motives of the rabbis who are known to be "hetterim speacilists"I question the motives of those who flock to them.<br /><br />3/06/2006 3:06 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />"glatt chicken to save MYSELF"<br /><br />There is no such thing as GLATT by poultry.. Even I know that. Glatt means the cow's lung is smooth of adhesions. And Askenazim follow the Rema.. that allows removing them.. <br /><br />LWG..back to the books..<br /><br />3/06/2006 3:14 PM <br /> Jewboy said... <br />koach deheteira adef<br /><br />3/06/2006 4:11 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />SG- touche, it was a joke after all<br />What i meant was i would eat a chicken for shabbos that had a shaila on it and was "mattered" by hefsed meruba<br />The gemara in chulin (and other places i believe) bring from the Navi Yechezkel (navi we can do on this website, no?) that he didn't ever eat something that a shayla was asked! even if it was 100% mutar... (no, i'm not gonna ask if he made his wife throw out the whole meal that she slaved over.....)<br /><br />3/06/2006 4:51 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Anon before SG, I liked that comment. It reflected my thoughts very well.<br /><br />How this became a whole thing on chumros, I don't know, but maybe I should do a post on it. (WHEN I get around to it...)<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />3/06/2006 8:47 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />speaking of getting around to things...when am I going to hear from you...<br /><br />3/06/2006 11:31 PM <br /> LakewoodWorkingGuy said... <br />SG - <br />Without the books, what do we have?<br /><br />3/07/2006 9:36 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />LE7- How 'bout during sheva brochos when you are bored<br /><br />3/07/2006 11:23 AM <br /> Okee said... <br />Um, this is probably a stupid question, but what is the story with the shoes and the Netziv?<br />I'm missing something here...<br /><br />3/07/2006 3:31 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />http://www.ou.org/chagim/roshhashannah/article/article64.htm<br /><br />The Netziv, Rav Naftali Tzvi Yehuda Berlin (1817-1893), the great Rosh Yeshiva of Volozhin, made a special seudah (festive meal) when he completed his magnus opus, the Haamek She'eila. At that occasion, he explained why this milestone was so significant for him. As a young boy, he did not show much interest in his Torah studies. One night, young Naftali overheard his father bemoaning his lack of progress. With tears in his eyes, his father told his mother it was time for their young son, Hirsh Leib (his nickname), to leave the yeshiva and become an apprentice to a local craftsman, so that he might learn a meaningful trade. Naftali was deeply moved by his parents’ distress, and he rushed to them and promised to apply himself to his Torah learning. From that day on, Naftali grew to become one of the great Torah giants of the 19th century.<br /><br />The Netziv displayed the Haamek She-eila and said with much emotion, "Had I become a shoemaker or tailor, I never would have written these volumes. After 120 years, I would have appeared before Hakodesh Baruch Hu, and He would have demanded, ‘Why didn't you write the Haamek She-eilah?’ No doubt I would have responded in disbelief. ‘What, I am only a simple shoemaker. How could I have written this magnificent sefer?’ ‘No’, G-d would have insisted, ‘you were capable of authoring this profound work,’ and of course that would have been the case. Imagine, for eternity I would have endured the anguish, pain and disgrace of not having authored the Haamek She-eilah."<br /><br />3/07/2006 3:58 PM <br /> Okee said... <br />Thanks limey! I actually have heard that story, but wayyy back in high school, so I forgive my memory this time.<br /><br />Side note: That story, for me, affected me more than I realized those years ago in high school. For the last year or two, I grappled (seriously, grappled) with the decision of whether to become a Judaic studies teacher. I knew I probably could've been a good teacher, etc., but I just didn't want to do it. But I was terrified and at a stand-still because I thought that when I go up to shamayim Hashem will ask me something like, where are all those yiddishe neshamas you could have brought closer to me? No joke, I ook that issue into consideration. Well, now I'm a teacher. But it took seven months of waiting, indecision, worry and pain to get to this point. Am I worried that I wasted seven months of not influencing/teaching eager souls? Not really, because without all that grappling, I wouldn't have gotten here.<br /><br />Sorry to go on and on, I should just post this all on my site, but the story triggered it. <br /><br />Oh, and the whole grappling/glad for the grappling issue falls under the guilt versus regret issue. (Never feel guilt when you can feel honest regret and change.)<br />Okay, I'll stop now. Goodnight!<br /><br />3/07/2006 10:51 PM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />eli<br />i have an important question for you on my blog<br />TIA<br /><br />3/08/2006 7:42 AM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />okee, u don't have to be a full time teacher... you can do 2 things and enjoy both of them in mod.<br /><br />3/08/2006 2:20 PM <br /> devorah said... <br />I don't teach because I'm not cut out for it but it is a scary thought that soon all capeble girls will be busy persuing careers and noone qualified will be left to teach limudey kodosh.I aplaud you strongly okee for your decision.<br /><br />3/08/2006 3:05 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />devorah, I disagree. There are still lots of CAPABLE girls who are continuing to teach and go into teaching. I actually taught limudei kodesh in high school while I was in seminary and also the year after and I really enjoyed it. I just decided to choose something else which would make a bit more money and has less preparation at home and yes, also something that I enjoy. But i do miss the teaching and lately, I have been pursuing going back into it just for a few hours a week as I find it very stimulating. But definitely it is a loss if someone who is really talented in teaching decides to do something else.<br /><br />3/08/2006 8:11 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Don't get me started on girls (and guys) becoming teachers. Just because you want to make a difference in this world, doesn't mean you have to be a teacher. That requires certain skills that not everyone has. Every person has their own unique contribution to this world. The Netziv's was being the Netziv, but don't think that not being a teacher means you aren't following the story of the Netziv. The point of the story isn't that we should all spend our lives with Limudei Kodesh. It's that we all have our unique tachlis in this world. We should all be lucky enough to find out what that is, and excel at it!<br /><br />3/11/2006 10:55 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Rarely are we given the cleat choice between writing a sefer or being a shoemaker.It is a series of life decisions and a relentless effort to do that what is right that will lead to the outcome.After 120 years while perhaps we made major life mistakes we must be capable of saying they weren't made for selfish reasons.No clear expectation is made of us other the doing our best and that will lead those cut out for teaching to do so those who are not to persue shleimus in their best manner applicble to them.Only with major effort can we determine what is really our best and even then one can't be sure.<br /><br />3/12/2006 6:50 PM <br /> brianna said... <br />Is it just me or are you saying Baruch Hashem more often now that you're engaged?<br /><br />3/14/2006 8:50 PM <br />Post a Comment<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-8705401087081848493?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-10096853307903015262008-09-24T23:06:00.000-07:002008-09-24T23:11:06.701-07:0066 Comments:<br /> parshapotpourri said... <br />Beautifully written as usual. Touching, real, down-to-earth, alive. <br /><br />I enjoyed your blog while it lasted, but saw this coming and am surprised it lasted this long. As much as this blog meant to you, I think you're making the mature decision as you begin this next chapter and enter "real life" and respect you for it.<br /><br />Wishing you tremendous hatzlacha, simcha, and clarity (!) in everything life brings you, and thanks for your wonderful blog.<br /><br />I know you don't look at yourself this way, and will indeed blush at the comparison, but perhaps in some way everything you so eloquently wrote about what this yungerman has been for you, you have been for so many of your readers. Thanks again, and mazel tov!!<br /><br />3/16/2006 12:38 AM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Wow..it really pays to comment first and read later..My dear friend Elisheva emailed me before posting, but in the time it took to skim thru the post PP beat me to the #1 spot.. <br /><br />Be that as it may... whatever the future of this blog is is I will always love you very much, Elisheva as I would my very own sister..<br /><br />3/16/2006 12:47 AM <br /> Pragmatician said... <br />Touching post. <br />I appreciate so much you've linked to my blog when I was a newcomer and you had a wonderfully established post already.<br /><br />I think it's great you wrote your appreciation for that mysterious yingerman, gratitude doesn't always have to be directed do the person itself, the sentiment has a lot of value on it's own, one that will serve you well on many occasions as a wife.<br /><br />3/16/2006 4:28 AM <br /> chanie said... <br />wow, elisheva. i will really miss you, but i cant say i didnt see this coming, and i cant say that i disagree with your decision. at the beginning i was going to say welcome back, but i guess i cant anymore.....but i hope you have hatzlacha, and only simchas...mazel tov again.<br /><br />3/16/2006 5:02 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />wow that was like wow<br />We'll miss you and we're always here if you need us<br />Mazal Tov and like all the best<br /><br />3/16/2006 10:04 AM <br /> Bracha said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />I really cherish the time we were able to email each other and I am really happy for you and I know your Choson will appreciate what a wonderful girl he chose. <br /><br />I am happy to know that there are still mature, sensible girls around.<br /><br />Good luck in everything!!!<br /><br />Mazel tov!<br /><br />Bracha<br /><br />3/16/2006 12:08 PM <br /> Dave J. said... <br />Elisheva, good luck. I think no internet is a good decision and I hope you manage to keep up to it, but don’t think it will be easy to keep cus after you get married there could be pretty boring times, and sitting and talking with you hubby all day wont solve the boredom. In my opinion it is better to allow movies in your house and not allow internet, of course if you could it best not to have either one in your house. Anyway good luck hope you guys have lots of happiness together. <br />P.S. did you and semgirl ever end up meeting?<br /><br />3/16/2006 12:31 PM <br /> shtaiger said... <br />I hope everyone saw all the new posts on my blog, www.shtaiger.blogspot.com<br /><br />3/16/2006 4:17 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />Dear dear elisheva, I will really miss your blog. That comment was so sweet and I really think it touched everyone who read it, and those who have been following your blog. It certainly has touched me!<br /><br />So like yeah, now it is really like time to say goodbye and like you should totally enjoy a happy marriage with your husband. Like totally for sure. May you look at each other's bad habits like being a totally adorable cute thing and you shouldn't have any worries - whether it be in parnasah or children or just anything and may Hashem show you that everything that comes your way is for the best! I will like miss you!!!<br />p.s. don't have internet in your house. it's not healthy - if you really need it, you can always hope over to the library.<br />MAZEL TOV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i wish i could have been there. love me<br /><br />3/16/2006 6:31 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />I am so touched by your comments. I will try to comment until Shabbos.<br /><br />For starters, I actually thought I edited out the 'likes' this time! Just comes to show.... I'm hopeless.<br /><br />PP, I really don't think so, but that was so sweet of you to say. I am touched and thanx.<br /><br />SG, All my love and thanx for everything.<br /><br />Pragmatician - I really wish I could have been able to visit your great blog more often. I wish you and the blog all the best. And I felt the same way about expressing the gratitude. It's something that should be done as much for our own part as for the part of the other person.<br /><br />Chanie, thanx for understanding.<br /><br />Limey - Thanx and I really do hope to somehow at least keep in touch if not actually blog again.<br /><br />Bracha - That was so sweet of you to say about me. I will tell my chosson! I cherish the connection and advice as well. Wihing you all the best.<br /><br />MB - I don't know about the movies, but yes, the internet is definitely risky timewise. Will there be times of boredom that I will want to write in? Maybe. Maybe I will write then and find a way to post even if not on internet in our own home. <br /><br />My job technically has access, but I never used it for this until now so as not to leave any traces of this blog there. So there are possibilities. And then it won't be at home to streal time. Only when I have it. Is that a dream? I don't know. I hope not. We'll see.<br /><br />Shtaiger, hi. Hope all works out for you.<br /><br />Ms. Shtark - I will have to e-mail you privately. You are a special person and I will announce that here. No, I don't know you personally, but it comes through in everything.<br /><br />I really, really will miss dancing with you. Who knows... Maybe you're his cousin or something and will come anyway, lol!<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />3/16/2006 7:13 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />I spent all day trying to think of the perfect thing to say. But I couldn't. There is no way I could express what a special person you are. This post really summed up everything that demonstrated how special you are. You are thoughtful, honest, sincere, open-minded, loving, growth oriented, curious, and intelligent. And you put your heart into everything. Your Chosson is lucky to have found somebody who embodies all of these things, and so much more, and all your strengths as well as his should mesh together to create one unit that can truly realize your greatest joint potential and fill your lives with love and happiness.<br /><br />Although it looks like we won't have our Normalville- the warm, friendly, open-minded and seriously frum community that the frum blogosphere gave us a glimpse of- your home should be a mini Normalville, and spread that spark of an ideal Yiddishkeit to all who see it. Focusing your energy and time on this real effort definitely takes precedence over writing a blog. Thank you for letting us into your life over the last 9 months, and thank you for being part of mine. Whether or not you reappear on your blog, find your way to ours, or just keep the email address alive, I look forward to keeping the kesher active, and continuing to learn and grow (and share simchas) in the future.<br /><br />Josh<br /><br />3/16/2006 8:59 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />elisheva , mz"t & lots hatzlacha , we wont forget u very quickly<br /><br />3/16/2006 11:32 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Was it only nine months? Wow! It feels like so much longer than that.<br /><br />Josh, that was too much. You make me blush. But thanx. It is nice of you to say that and your best wishes are so appreciated. I really do hope at least to keep in touch if I can't do more.<br /><br />And I love your thought about making my own little Normalville in our home. I will tell my chosson that.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />3/16/2006 11:33 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />SF - Thanx, best wishes to you too.<br /><br />3/17/2006 12:10 AM <br /> David_on_the_Lake said... <br />Elisheva...<br />Mazel Tov. You've made Lakewood proud..<br />:-)<br /><br />3/17/2006 9:18 AM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />Elisheva - I can't believe you're actually going... Uh, actually, I guess I need to rephrase that. I can believe you're going, because the decision is a wise one, but it's hard to see you go. <br />Hatzlacha in everything, and thanks for till now...:)<br />OH - And HAPPINESS ALWAYS!<br /><br />3/17/2006 9:33 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />David - Awwww! I only just recently discovered your own blog and I liked it and it is a pity I hardly was able to visit. Hatzlacha on everything. And who know, I may be standing behind you in line in Bagle Nosh or somewhere with my chosson one day soon...<br /><br />Special - I'll soooo miss you. You really are special. And a HUGE heartfelt IY"H by you! Can't wait...<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />3/17/2006 1:09 PM <br /> X-LR8 said... <br />I really enjoyed your blog, very good read and writing style. Build a baiyis ne'eman b'yisroel and if you have time give me your thoughts on my new blog http://frumrambling.blogspot.com/<br /><br />3/17/2006 1:13 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />"we hate to see u go" but all i can say is iy"h by all of us, now for the rest of us staying around this was a great meating place , where do we go now maby shevi keep the blog up we can keep on comenting here lol, even without posts its a rare combination of nice normal ppl here, about you staying off during shana rishona imho it is a wise thing & to strengthen your decision may i add that during this time there may be things u may feel u want to descuss but r actuly better of not descussing, its a time emotions run high etc. a very persnl time keep it that way its the smart choice, & then again g luck will miss u ,<br /><br />3/17/2006 5:05 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Good Shabbos, Love you all, and Shalom.<br /><br />3/17/2006 5:38 PM <br /> David_on_the_Lake said... <br />Elisheva...<br />Thanks for visiting...you're always welcome to visit and comment..<br />If you're there with your Chosson..I doubt you'll even notice me<br />;-)<br /><br />3/18/2006 9:51 PM <br /> Michael said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />Please read my email. Not sure if you'll like it.<br /><br />3/18/2006 11:34 PM <br /> Lvnsm27 said... <br />Elisheva, may you and your chasson build a bayis neeman byisrael and live happily together.<br /><br />Lvnsm<br />live & smile<br /><br />3/19/2006 8:42 PM <br /> On The Derech said... <br />Elisheva -<br />B"HATZLACHA! <br />We'll miss you!<br />-OTD<br /><br />3/20/2006 9:26 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />so when and were is the wedding.<br />I want to dance<br /><br />3/21/2006 3:54 PM <br /> Boruch said... <br />I so badly want to tell you... but my lips are sworn to secrecy.....<br /><br />3/21/2006 4:01 PM <br /> Scraps said... <br />Tzeitech l'shalom. Mazal tov, and may Hashem bless you with happiness and shalom bayit.<br /><br />You will be missed.<br /><br />3/21/2006 4:39 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />The wedding was beautiful. We all had a ball. Mazel Tov and all the best<br /><br />3/22/2006 12:59 AM <br /> boruchb said... <br />anon you were obviously at a different Chasana..A sach Yiddishe Nachas oif ganz Clall Yisroel...<br /><br />3/22/2006 1:14 AM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />i bet you all eli will be back soon complaining about her husband<br />LMAO<br /><br />3/22/2006 11:48 AM <br /> Eshet Chayil said... <br />I'm way late as usual to comment but this was a beautiful post. I can't wait for the newly wed post. It might take awhile to get here, but I hope it does.<br /><br />3/23/2006 8:36 AM <br /> s.f. said... <br />so ppl were do we go from here to meet some nice & normal ppl<br /><br />3/23/2006 10:24 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />You can continue this blog even without new postings.Just write your thoughts on anything and responces are sure to follow.<br /><br />3/24/2006 12:33 PM <br /> FrumGirl said... <br />Mazel tov again. Whether it is goodbye or not, your blog was an a light inspiration to many girls who cant find the voice.<br /><br />3/24/2006 1:12 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />thanx anon but may as well open my own blog not for me but maby somone bring up a topic ? mrs shtark whats on your mind?<br /><br />3/24/2006 3:09 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />s.f., open up your own blog. why not? i am not mrs. shtark but ms. shtark. <br />hmmmmm what is on my mind? usually my family, work, my spirituality (sometimes going up and sometimes down) and who on earth am i going to end up marrying already... that is about as uncomplicated an explanation you are gonna get, although I usually do think about more things and have more stuff going on.<br />one topic i would find interesting i guess would be what ppl think are the differences between intown places like new york - brooklyn, five towns, lakewood and out of town like miami, toronto, chicago, atlanta. it would be interesting to hear opinions about it.<br /><br />3/26/2006 1:59 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />ms:<br />Funny to ask what the differences are.<br />It usually depends, if it is the girl or boy who is from out-of-town (oot)<br />Places like Florida, Toronto tend to be very chilled out while they are machshiv torah, (on the parents level) and the girls, are usually looking for a guy to sit and learn for a few years and after that go get a normal job.<br />However oot communities like Baltimore, tend to be a little more on the OOT’ish side in a different way, that is by being a bit more harry’ish (not that it’s bad).<br />Many times it depends on what seminary a girl went to. Even if she’s from FL and she went to a normal sem, then usually it’s a go go, because they are normal and just have the oot attitude that’s chilled.<br />While if you have a girl from OOT that went to gateshead, or the like (or bjj or hadar) you will usually know what type of OOT they are.<br /><br />3/26/2006 10:36 AM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />OK anonymous above, i get what you are saying but i just find it so funny how ppl base things on seminary - after all it is only one year in a girls life. a girl picks her sem based on who she is already (usually). yes, they are going to 'grow' but they are also going to have a good time with friends and the like. also a girl or boy usually but not always is like his/her family - plays a big part. i think one thing that is different definitely about oot is that yes they are more chilled out and they dont totally care what everyone else thinks - they are not always out to impress each other. what is nice about in town is that there are so many jews around you. again that is a good thing and a bad thing..... me personally coming from oot - i find 'in town' very different.<br /><br />3/26/2006 1:58 PM <br /> eshter said... <br />When I was in sem I felt like I was the odd one out for being from boro park.I don't mean to criticze or acuse anyone but let me just say when other girls used to make fun of boro park (and me by extension)IT HURT! Please don't start a fight about this issue but we have to very careful about portraying someone elses hometown in a negitive light.Now back to subject at hand..<br /><br />3/26/2006 2:16 PM <br /> CE said... <br />I know what you mean..One lady we know grew up in Denver, and went to BJJ. Can you spell overcompensate.. Another lady is married to a really cool Toronto guy, but she is from Minneapolis and went to Hadar.. So she has to out-Lakewood all the native Lakewooders. Its an old story. Then you have Chicago people that come from real Torahdiker homes and have nothing to prove, so they are comfortable in their own skin..<br /><br />3/26/2006 9:06 PM <br /> s.f said... <br />lol thnk ms shtark (i stand corrected) for starting us up, to your ? well as ppl pointed out it there r deffrent out of towners i would focus on the frum out of towner, meaning if pareants r lets say in chinuch etc b/c thse r the ones i know i would say they dont have all the built in "frumkiet attitudes" that being in town gives but they r way more thinking ppl generaly speaking, & therfore often have lots of "pnimius" (btw obviously i m from in town lol)<br /><br />3/26/2006 10:00 PM <br /> s.f said... <br />oh & about my own blog its to time consuming, among other reasons, also ill admit not sure i have that much to say to keep ppl intrested lol<br /><br />3/26/2006 10:02 PM <br /> b4 its too late said... <br />elisheva<br />i would suggest you delete this blog before your husband looks at your first few posts were you say that you were invloved with some lesbians<br /><br />3/27/2006 9:06 AM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />eshter, I think I know what you mean but if you are your own person, then what's the biggie?<br /><br />ce, minneapolis + hadar + toronto? interesting mix makes interesting results. I think that the real oot of town places like phoenix or san diego or columbus would be real cool places to live. that is even more oot then toronto or florida and chicago. I think the problem then is education for your kids because you end up sending your kids to school where there are a big mix. However, I think that is also good because it opens up your children's eyes that there are different types out there and leads to great kiruv opportunities.<br /><br />sf, what do you mean when you say the frumkeit attitudes that being intown brings? what are they?<br /><br />3/27/2006 9:41 AM <br /> chaya goldie said... <br />Ms. shtark: Do you REALY get to do more kiruv out of town?somehow I feel once you get there you get too bogged down by daily life for being involved any more in kiruv then once a week partners in torah that you could do in lakewood as well.(I do)When I got engaged it was with the understanding that we would move out of town for kiruv if we could find any realistic opportunity.To our sorrow we didn't.May you fare better.<br /><br />3/27/2006 3:46 PM <br /> Frum Sem Kid said... <br />B4: You are obviously a guy. Girls playing around a drop and experimenting in sem has NOTHING to do with being lesbian. Girls are different than guys. We change in front of each other and are more into our bodies and figures. This can be another topic to discuss here. Pity Elisheva never got to it. We all end up marrying boys and that's what we want.<br /><br />3/27/2006 9:35 PM <br /> suzan said... <br />elisheva, mazel tov<br /><br />3/28/2006 11:15 AM <br /> skibum said... <br />chaya goldie, kiruv seems to be the ultimate "chick magnet" for lack of a better description, it sounnds exotic and spiritual and when a boy says he wants to do it the falls head over heels......then reality hits, "no opportunity" (no $50k a year job)... I hope you aren't feeling cheated<br /><br />3/28/2006 1:16 PM <br /> chaya goldie said... <br />skibum:we realized then that it was at best a 50% chance we would find anything but at least we tried.Thanks for the concern.<br /><br />3/28/2006 1:58 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />A sach mazal un nachas.. Im so excited for you..<br /><br />3/29/2006 9:39 AM <br /> skibum said... <br />uh SG: like been there done that? or are you trying to tell us something?<br /><br />3/29/2006 9:48 AM <br /> s.f said... <br />ms. shtark what i meant is fort example denim, etc btw after i posted that i relized that while it may be true by girls by boys i dont see the oot having any gains from it<br /><br />3/29/2006 3:19 PM <br /> long time le7 admirer said... <br />Do you realize LE7 has hit over 30 thousand hits?! Shows how much we all love her. Hope she comes back soon. It's crazy, every cute looking yeshivish girl I pass now who looks like a fresh kalla, makes me wonder...<br />On a different track, besides out of town, do you guys think it is becoming pretty accepted even in yeshivish engaged couples to touch and bunp 'by mistake' and have conversations just bordering on racy, or is it my imagination?<br /><br />4/02/2006 12:29 AM <br /> michal said... <br />I don't know if you are married or not by now - if so, mazal tov!!! - but I only just found your blog recently and I read it beginning to end (and most of the comments, too!) I am so happy that you found your bashert and I hope that you find many long years of happiness together. <br /><br />I hope you both will decide that you will come back to blogging soon. Your voice and insights are important, and I think your thoughts about shana rishona (not the sex stuff, the growth stuff!) could be very valuable - especially to young girls who are still in the shidduch scene as you were not long ago.<br /><br />4/07/2006 2:07 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />7 - Just wanted to let you know that I'm still checking daily. A false hope, I know. But I'm sure at some point, you'll at least read this, so I want you to know that I'm still thinking about you and your Chosson, and hope everything is a fairytale. Even if you don't pick up the blog again, I can't say enough how much I valued your perspective. You should only have more Simcha in your life!<br /><br />4/27/2006 11:37 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />af al pe sh'yismamayeh im kol zeh achacka lo...but that of course is a referance to moshiach not elisheves blog.Lets not get carried away ch"v nonetheless I also check here in the hope she returns.<br /><br />4/28/2006 3:20 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />me too! hope everything is going great!<br /><br />4/30/2006 5:38 PM <br /> JBL the first said... <br />Kol Hakovod on the decision you made about internet. I hope you won't change it later on as it is a hard but worthy undertaking.<br /><br />5/01/2006 10:59 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />this blog is pure bullshit<br />was a guy who simply got bored acting girly<br /><br />5/01/2006 7:34 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />I highly doubt that, because we emailed and chatted for over 9 months and shared our most intimate thoughts..<br /><br />5/01/2006 8:37 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />WELL SEMGIRL, DOES ELI STILL TALK WITH YOU AT ALL ? GIVE US A HINT ABOUT WHATS GOING ON.<br /><br />5/02/2006 11:23 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />strange how semgirl can only doubt that<br /><br />5/02/2006 3:24 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />HELLO!<br /><br />Hi everyone. No, we did not get internet at home, and I think we will not be getting it. Thanks for the chizuk from all those who encouraged me to keep strong with that. I will be checking in through work though I think. I do hope to post something when I can.<br /><br />I was very touched seeing all the comments I missed before our wedding after I no longer checked the blog or my e-mail. You all are really so sweeet and wonderful. B"H things are very good. My chosson (okay, husband, I have to still get used to calling him that) started the zman so like I do seem to be having a drop more time now, something I didn't dream I would have a week ago.<br /><br />Josh, that last comment touched me as you always do. I really had you ALL in mind by my chuppah. Hi, Ms. Shtark, Hi Semgirl, Hi everyone else. Okay, I will have to go for now. I missed you all.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />P.S. I hate deleting comments, but I think I do have to keep the blog a little more in order, especially now. Please, if you don't like anything or the blog, just don't visit or comment. Thanks.<br /><br />5/02/2006 3:36 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Yay! We haven't lost you forever! I'm so happy to hear all is going well. Things have been so quiet (both on the blog and off the blog for me). It sounds like you are balancing everything expertly. We're here if you ever need us.<br /><br />5/03/2006 11:20 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Like there is something called tact and mentchlichkeit.<br /><br />Posting soon...<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />5/24/2006 3:23 PM <br /> prof said... <br />hello<br />write to great personnalities!<br />i post your letter on jewisheritage.fr<br />shalom<br />marcel<br /><br />10/07/2007 11:41 AM<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-1009685330790301526?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-86947108039663870192008-09-24T23:04:00.000-07:002008-09-24T23:06:32.719-07:00<strong>Monday, September 18, 2006<br />Hi everyone.<br /><br />Sorry I was away so long. To be honest, my husband and I experienced a very personal crisis together, and I wasn't really in the mood for blogging and needed time to heal. B"H we are fine, and it is not marriage-related. The truth is though we both suffered, I broke down and he stood by me, so thanks to him. <br /><br />I just think it is time to at least be nice enough to explain my absence and wish everyone a very good and happy and healthy new year. Like I said many times before, you all meant a lot more to me than you might imagine.<br /><br />Here is wishing everyone all they desire and daven for that is good for them. may Hashem answer all your prayers for the best, and a Shana Tova uMesuka.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />posted by Elisheva @ 4:20 PM 35 comments</strong><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-8694710803966387019?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-29077569779202238072008-09-24T23:03:00.000-07:002008-09-24T23:04:55.169-07:00<strong>Monday, July 17, 2006<br /><br /><br />I will try to keep this post short. This is something that was on my mind recently, and came up in conversations with friends, co-workers, etc. Also, it relates to a general issue which I always wondered about. So while I have much to say, I will try (really, lol!) not to ramble.<br /><br />One of the rabbonim here spoke recently about hilchos tznius to the men in yeshiva. Now, I do not want to go into the whole speech and all that. I know people have loads to say about this and it is like an explosive issue. This is NOT what I want to discuss here. What did catch my interest was a comment the rav made which I then had a conversation with my husband about.<br /><br />The rav said that the reason he was speaking to the guys about tznius and not the wives, was because there are women who call him and tell him that their husband were really pushing them to dress way more provocatively than they want to. And we’re talking about outside, like in the street.<br /><br />Now maybe this is nothing new to the guys, but this was like a major conversation piece for lots of the wives who heard the tape or about what he said. It seems like a lot of guys look at their wives almost like trophies to show off or something. My husband’s chavrusa was saying how terrible it is when guys show their wives off, and my husband (who is a bit innocent in these things) insisted that no one in his right mind would do that. When my husband told me about his argument with his chavrusa, I was like, hello, he is right, loads of guys want to show off their wives. But my husband is like, no way. He thinks that the husbands whose wives called the rav are just not as makpid as the wives, but it’s not like they specifically want to show them off. I was like, but then, if the wives are more makpid and uncomfortable, why should the husband care? My husband thinks maybe they just don’t like their wives to be more frum than them (which I admit is a good point), but for sure no guy would want to show off his wife. A guy likes to have it all to himself.<br /><br />So who is right? The ladies in the offices I know about are all up in arms. Like is it really like that? Are we just trophies or things the guys use to compete with each other? Do they have like zero respect for us ourselves? A lot of girls admit their husbands like them to dress up nicely, and they always thought that the husbands just wanted them to look good. But now some are saying, does he want me to look good for him, or is it to like show off to his friends? Like, is that all I am to him?<br /><br />I recently had an e-mail exchange with a very smart man who understands things, so I do put weight in what he says. I was saying how my husband is pretty easy-going as far as what he lets me wear, but he has on occasion expressed his opinion that certain things were like maybe too much. I explained that basically my husband is not too into what styles I wear and stuff like that. He trusts me (like maybe even too much…) on styles, colors, designs. But if he thinks a certain top or blouse or whatever like shows my body too much (and for me this is a major problem), it does make him uncomfortable that I should wear it outside in public. It is really not so much a tznius thing. It’s more like I get the feeling that he just sort of likes to keep what he feels is my feminine part for himself. I admit that this does make me feel very good, and even though it is frustrating not to wear certain stuff I think really make me look good, I don’t feel as put out as I used to when my parents told me I can’t wear stuff, cause like I feel special to him that he likes me and thinks it is too special to show off and parade around.<br /><br />This person I was e-mailing also expressed the feeling that it is interesting my husband looks at it this way, because not all guys do. So this is basically what has been on my mind. What is going through the husband’s minds and what do you all feel about it? Is it normal? Are we women being used, as we often are, or is this the way of the world? Is there a reason a guy should not want to show off a pretty wife just like he’d show off a fancy tie or chosson watch, or is it sick and weird, and a bad hashpa’ah from the world we live in that a husband does not think of his wife as special for him, and has no problem showing her off? And not only has no problem, but wants it, and even pushes her to like, flaunt it, so his friends can see what he has?<br /><br />And is it right to his friends? What if they don’t have such a pretty wife? Or what if their wives are like busy with little kids or whatever? And what about single friends? A married girl I was talking to, not really a friend, but someone I know, tells me that she feels it is only right for her to dress as best as she can, even to flaunt what she has, because why should her husband not be proud of his wife and have to look at the other guy’s wives? She even admit that she knows his single friends really have a hard time when they eat by them on Shabbos (yes, we do notice those not-so-subtle stares…). But when I asked her, so like how can you do that, she said because as soon as they get married they will bring their wives over who will flaunt every last thing they have to my husband, so I have every right to do the same.<br /><br />So is this all about keeping our spouses happy? If the other one stops, would we too? Is it like just a vicious cycle? Or do we as women also enjoy flaunting and flirting and now we convince ourselves we are “doing it for our husbands”? So it’s both, the wives who feel it is right to do, and the husbands who want it. What do you think? Is it right? Is it a mitzvah even? Or would it be just as good, and better, for us to dress to the nines for supper at home, or whenever we can in private, but just not right for us to do it outside, and for guys to use their wives outside to show off with?<br /><br />What do you think?<br /><br />posted by Elisheva @ 4:30 PM 88 comments </strong><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-2907756977920223807?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-33892321350168587962008-09-24T23:00:00.000-07:002008-09-24T23:03:20.841-07:00<strong>Wednesday, May 24, 200<br /><br />Where do I start? Okay, so I guess I don’t, I should just dive right in to my topic. Cause like if not, I will never get to it. Okay, okay. I won’t just ignore everything and all your questions about my married life. I know many of you have really been sweet about everything and your best wishes always touched me, so I guess I do like owe you a decent hello before I get to my post.<br /><br />B”H. That’s really all I can say. (Oh gosh, Elisheva totally freaked out and is now walking around like this nebby B”H girl all day… I can just hear you gasping.) Um, so like do I assure you that no, I am the same girl I was a few months ago (Is it really just a few months? Yikes!), and that nothing really changed? I don’t think I can.<br /><br />Yes, things have changed. I always thought they wouldn’t. I was convinced I will always be the same cool person I always was (Cool, like as in calm and in control, not as in like a ‘cool’ girl. I don’t think I ever was that.). Like okay, I was getting married, all the adjusting, okay, we’ll really work hard on it. But why would I change like I see happens to so many girls who get married?<br /><br />So I have to confess. I changed. I am as shocked as anyone else. Will it stay like this? I don’t know, but like I so totally feel changed. What am I talking about? I don’t even know if I can describe it. Like I definitely did not become a tzaddekes overnight. I cannot say I worked on my ruchnios just because I got married. So what is it? Why when I wanted to speak about married life was I stuck on that ‘B”H’?<br /><br />I think it’s cause I was like so humbled by what happened to me. A girl can either grow and learn to see Hashem in everything. No, I cannot say I did that, though like I wish one day. Or, Hashem can just choose to show her what she has never seen before and sort of ‘wow’ her by it. Then she sees Hashem too, but not because she worked on it, but like because Hashem was kind to her. Gosh, I think I am sounding totally freaked out now, but I feel this now and this is my blog, so I will end this thought.<br /><br />For those who have followed my blog, I am a pretty regular BY kid, maybe too curious and too exposed. I try so hard to be good, I am even considered aidel by some, but I have that naughty side buried deep inside me (or not so deep?) which I have to admit, no, I never really did learn to control. So where was I headed? Who knows. I like definitely did not. Deep down I wanted to be good, and to use my urges, both good and bad, for good. But I can’t say I was doing that, nor deserved too much for my efforts.<br /><br />And yet Hashem saw my confusion, when it was the worst, when I was so torn, so hurting, when I thought He really didn’t see me at all. (Did I just write that? I know it’s not true, but it’s how I felt. Really.) Like to be honest I got my computer for a course and wasn’t supposed to be going online. I cannot say I didn’t go on to see stuff and read stuff I knew would only make matters worse. But I kept losing control, losing the battles. So did I deserve to marry a ben Torah? No. If I would find one, would he want me? No. Like should he have wanted me? No. Did I deserve to even get married if I was so confused? I don’t know.<br /><br />But Hashem sent me first some little things to calm me and reassure me. No, my life didn’t like change drastically, I didn’t become a better person, but I did feel validated and worthy by some people I met online and someone I met in real life. And then, after some majorly frustrating dates – like either ‘top’ learners who were totally not for me or me for them, or ‘cool’ guys who I thought were like way too shallow for me or just not heading where I deep down still wanted to head – I was introduced to my chosson.<br /><br />No, I will not start with like extolling his greatness. He is great for me as every chosson is for his kallah. That’s not the point. The point is that there was a person tailor-made for me that Hashem sent my way like way before I deserved it. I can think of loads of girls more deserving than me to meet their bashert who are still waiting. So yes, it is so humbling. I didn’t get this because of my teffilos (like how many times was I too lazy and missed), and not like because of my tznius (how many times did the teenage hormones get the better of me when I know other girls kept much stronger), and not because of anything I deserved. That’s for sure. I am not just acting humble. Hello! If you followed my blog, you know I am no saint. I know it as much as you.<br /><br />So that’s why I can only say B”H. I debated long and hard before writing this. I would like hate to cause any girl who is still waiting any pain. I’d hate to be perceived as like rubbing it in anyone’s face. Yes, I do know some of the pain and understand, but I cannot honestly say I totally feel what you do. I was not tested like that, and surely I would have flopped. I was already thinking Hashem somehow forgot about me and that was only at 19. But I can’t ignore where I am in life and I know as a single I hated when married girls ignored their status like as if it would make me feel better. It only made me feel like a bigger neb-case. The longing is there, I’m sure, but I would have wanted someone to be open with me, so I’m acting the same. Other girls are different, and even girls like me have bad days when we just don’t care to know about your married life.<br /><br />But I just felt I would say this much. I am humbled by how I was helped, and I know I owe Hashem and the world big time for it. Hope I don’t mess up. Like surely there are people who are feeling as bad and low as I did or even worse and are thinking, very nice, she got help, see everyone does besides me. I so understand that feeling. I can only say my thoughts and teffilos are with you. I am not going to go on about the standard hashkafa stuff, everyone has their own nisyonos, Hashem tests the stronger people, yadda, yadda, yadda. It’s all true, but surely you know it as much as I do and I know when I felt that way, all the hashkafa talks didn’t help. Maybe it is a weakness of mine. But for me, only empathy helped, and I didn’t always have that, and when it was private struggles and confusions, the loneliness killed. So I will save the preaching and just say, if you are reading this, I am with you. Heart and soul.<br /><br />Gosh, I knew this would happen! Now I have rambled on and where is my post? Still in my mind where it has been for weeks now, lol! I guess it will have to wait. What can I post now? I’ll try to do something without having thought about it before and see how that works and where it will head. A dear friend e-mailed me and asked me to post about something. I don’t even know if I am married long enough to qualify and have a real opinion on this, but the truth is it like also comes into play for single people too.<br /><br />I don’t think this is anything original, but I guess I can write my take on it. The question is should we be busy pleasing ourselves and our spouses, or our friends, neighbors, and imaginary critics? I say imaginary, cause I like really think most times we wonder like, “What will Chani say about this outfit?” or “What will Debby say when she realizes that my husband learns so much (or so little) extra time?” I think it is mostly in our minds. Like Chani is usually wondering what you think about her outfit, and the same for Debby. She is hoping you approve of her husband’s schedule.<br /><br />So does it pay? Will it make you happier? I am not going to deny the pressure is there. I do very often wonder what people think of how I am dressed or look. But I also try to tell myself that I will not be happy dressing how I think they would like or even if I know what it is they think is perfect for me, I still won’t be happy deep inside. I like to be me. I have that part to me. And if you don’t, I think you should try to get in touch with it. Like every person has an inner self somewhere, I think. Maybe you lost touch in this crazy race to try to please everyone else. But are you happy? Does it make you happy deep down if your spouse or you do something only because other people do it that way?<br /><br />I just thought of an example and then I think I will have to end this post. My husband did not buy me flowers each week. Horrors. Silly of me to be upset? Maybe, but I thought it was like a basic thing they told guys, like it showed you cared and were a mentch etc. My sister’s husband buys flowers every erev Shabbos, that much I picked up. I can’t promise for my friends, I am not such a yenta and not that many close friends are married, but I get the idea it is pretty universal. So when my chosson did not come home with flowers already on our second Friday, I was hurt. Okay, I said, be reasonable, not a baby. Maybe he forgot, you know the stories, grow up, it makes no difference. But then the next week he again didn’t buy any. Should I tell him? That’s silly. They’re not so important, the point is for him to buy them, not for me to ask.<br /><br />A few Fridays later, he came home with flowers. I was torn between too hurt by now to care and wanting to forget everything and like love him to pieces for buying them. I calmly asked him why he bought them (after telling him they were gorgeous of course, which they were…). He told me that his chavrusa asked him where he buys flowers for Shabbos and he said he didn’t and his chavrusa told him he better! He said he always thought guys bought them only on special occasions or weeks. The flowers were pretty, he got the message, I should have been happy, right? But I wasn’t. I found myself thinking on Shabbos, why should I be happy if he bought them cause his chavrusa said so? Then I told myself, you are being so silly. He learned and was so nice that he like right away acted on what he learned. Still, I guess having what everyone else has just doesn’t make you happy. I wasn’t.<br /><br />A little later, one regular night, my husband came home from second seder with flowers. I looked at him, like what’s this? He got like majorly flushed (okay, we still have some getting used to each other to do, lol.) and said that he was thinking on the way to second seder about me and about how happy he is and decided to buy something to thank me for being his wife. He was all apologetic like he really wanted to get a gift, but didn’t have time to really think of something nice, but meanwhile he just felt he wanted to buy me something. He had to go to the store before seder cause like it is closed after (I told him ShopRite has them too and they’re open late. He is not that worldly as I have said.), and he wrote something (just a little note, nothing even major) and put it away until after seder to bring it home. Oh gosh, I was going to write how I was crying, but now I am crying again and I have to leave to work soon. (I started writing this post last night and am continuing now so I can post it at work.)<br /><br />My point is that I was like touched more than I almost have ever been. There are no words to describe such a feeling, and again IY”H by every single one of my readers who are not married and for those who are, I imagine these things wear off. I so hope we can manage to keep it going, and for those who like find it fading, IY”H you should somehow manage to rekindle it. But that was not my point. My point was like that it hit me later (yes, while I was sitting like a total neb just staring at the flowers) that what made me happy, really happy, deep inside happy, not happy cause now he is doing ‘the right thing’, was when he did something that was from him for me. Not when he did something that I felt should have been done or he did it because he felt it was the right thing to do.<br /><br />Okay, I am not saying you should not buy flowers every erev Shabbos anyway. Yes guys, we love them and they mean a lot either way, really. I was open with him and told him how I felt and that I do like flowers also regularly and he asked if I’d like him to buy them every week and I said if we can afford them, sure, it’ll be beautiful on the Shabbos table (Major table, lol. The dinette table moved to the middle of the room for Shabbos, covered in white, but it is our Shabbos table and I love it, even if we don’t eat at home that Shabbos.). So he does buy them, but still I learned a major lesson. Like nothing can ever compare to something done either for you and not for your neighbor’s benefit, or by you for someone you love and not for someone you are trying to impress.<br /><br />This is also so much a part of a single person’s life. How we dress, act, even sometimes who we date, like can be influenced by what we think people are thinking or will say. So think about it. Okay, short-term it can totally be nice to get the approval you seek. But long-term, what will make you happy?<br /><br />Shalom</strong><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-3389232135016858796?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-52324918727718553492008-09-24T22:58:00.000-07:002008-09-24T23:00:15.842-07:00Thursday, March 16, 2006<br /><br />Gosh. Where do I start? I hadn’t thought I’d end (or pause) my blog this way. I really wanted to get in so much more stuff and discuss a lot more topics. B”H things didn’t work out that way and I just couldn’t get around to posting.<br /><br />First, the technical notes for now: We will be getting married IY”H sometimes between now and Pesach. Those who followed by blog until now, know that I value my privacy and it is that which allowed me to discuss things the way I did on the blog, which I think many people appreciated. The drawback is not having you all celebrate with me even online on the date, or even harder is that some of the very real sweet, nice, thoughtful, fun, and mentchlich people I met here, female and some males too, will not be coming in person to wish me Mazel Tov on a day I can say I really think I will be remembering them.<br /><br />No, I don’t plan on spending my wedding night thinking of my blog, but many of you did share in a lot of things with me, and I got loads of advice, some of which I did find useful, and more so, I will surely be davening for all those who need shidduchim, or any other things I was made aware of. So yes, I will be thinking of you, and I hope we can celebrate together at least in a heartfelt fashion, if we can’t in real life.<br /><br />So, getting back to the point, I am not giving out the date, so therefore I can’t stop right before, or it will be obvious. Besides I am having less and less time to blog anyway. So might as well stop (for now), when I can still write a decent note about it. That is why I decided to stop right after Purim.<br /><br />I can never write how much all the comments meant to me, or how much all your stories and situations touched me. I liked sharing my opinions and getting yours. It is a beautiful thing here I think. I will truly miss it, though hopefully I will not have that much time to dwell on it.<br /><br />Okay, about the future. Notice I am not saying, good bye, the blog is over. Maybe I should say it. Maybe it is. But I just can’t. So is it really over and I don’t have the guts to face it? I really don’t know. I know that for now, I just will not be able to. I don’t have internet openly in my home so it’s not like I can just do a quick comment any time.<br /><br />About after we are married, we still didn’t fully decide, but decided to wait until we are married to decide! Lol. Like I will be taking my computer with me. So technically it will remain possible. And my chosson is not technically against me posting and blogging. The question is about having the internet in our home. We both wouldn’t want our children IY”H to be going online so far, but that is way off in the future. For now, the issue is more whether it pays to do something we won’t be telling people. Like it really isn’t so comfortable doing something you know you wouldn’t want people knowing. Even though I don’t think the blogging in itself is bad, I will admit the internet is dangerous, and yes, I admit I too maybe saw stuff I shouldn’t have. Okay, not maybe. I did. So though the blogging here itself is pretty okay and the comments and exchange is great, we have to decide about the internet at all.<br /><br />Secondly is that someone pointed out (like I said, yes, I do take the advice and e-mails seriously and consider them) that this takes a lot of time and during Shana Rishona it may not be healthy to be pushing off spending time with my chosson cause I like want to ‘get in’ a post. I really thought a lot about this. And I spoke to my chosson about it.<br /><br />We are unsure about this too. Like I guess until it happens it is hard to gauge. Like will it really steal time and then it is bad, or maybe not. Maybe there will be times I already threw in a load, supper is simmering and I have an hour until he gets home and it would do wonders for me to be able to just sit and compose a thought. I love writing my thoughts, as you probably noticed, and then hearing from others about them.<br /><br />So this too we will have to see and then decide. But for now, I guess I will have to say, gosh, I have tears in my eyes now, really. I didn’t realize this will be so hard. Okay, so let me jump past the technical part and get to the emotional part. You all mean so much to me. I was touched in so many ways by so many of you. I so wish we can continue sharing and being mechazek each other. I really hope to somehow keep in touch. I do. This was a real part of me at this stage in my life and a part I liked, enjoyed and I think helped me grow. I hope some of you feel this way too.<br /><br />I will daven for all of you. Really. Hashem should only bless you all with the best in everything you need to lead lives of Torah and Yiddishkeit. Health, shidduchim, children, peace of mind, direction, and everything else.<br /><br />Okay, I am crying too much now. I can’t write any more, and I have nothing else to say now anyway. My point was good-bye for now and I will miss you all and thank you all so much for visiting and commenting and e-mailing, and most of all, caring and sharing.<br /><br />Hope you all understand.<br /><br />Elisheva<br /><br />P.S. I don’t know why I am writing this here, but I just feel that I have to somehow acknowledge the help I received from someone. I don’t think he will ever read this and surely he has no clue about my blog, but I just feel that for myself, personally it would not be right not to say something in public.<br /><br />Those who read a lot of my stuff know that there is a Kollel Yungerman whom I respect a lot and who took a personal interest in my life even though he owes me nothing and I don’t think he was very comfortable talking to a single young girl like me, whom his wife does not even know. I got to know him through a friend of mine, with whose family he is very close. I think the world of him. He embodies a person who yes, is yeshivish, yes he’s frum, yes, he’s learning, and yet he is a mentch, he is normal, he is understanding, he doesn’t judge, and to me he was a life-saver and I mean that more than he or anyone else will ever know. In my doubting, teen-age, hormone filled times, he was there when I had no one to reach out to. I think he was uncomfortable, but he realized how much it meant to me and he was there. And his advice was always on the mark and always worked.<br /><br />You will never see this, but thank you. I owe this much. I just feel a need to express it, and to publicize what a Kiddush shem shomayim I believe you did by showing me that there are still those who embody the Torah life the way it was meant to be. To be lived by humans with human failings and not just angels. That’s what you always told me.<br /><br />Thanx<br /><br />posted by Elisheva @ 12:23 AM<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-5232491872771855349?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-84049164794949968892008-09-24T22:55:00.000-07:002008-09-24T22:58:06.602-07:00Wednesday, February 08, 2006<br /><br />Let me start by first sincerely thanking each and every one of you individually for all your beautiful and heartfelt Mazel Tov wishes. It may be clichéd, but words can truly never describe the warm feelings that I felt upon receiving and reading each and every comment. Lots of them brought tears to my eyes, something that has been happening pretty often lately, lol. Like I have mentioned before, the warmth and camaraderie that we sometimes forge here is like amazing. My special friend <a href="http:\\www.semgirl.blogspot.com">Rochel</a> explained it very well on her amazing blog. There is less competitiveness and less jealousy and more acceptance here. Wouldn’t it be great to try to like inculcate these things in our real lives.<br /><br />It is hard to write a lot without giving away too much, and I must value our privacy at this point. Still, I will try to write some general things about my chosson and our engagement for all those who have been waiting ever so patiently for the details.<br /><br />Okay, so he learns here in BMG, which is the Lakewood yeshiva for the uninitiated. I will not say which building he dorms in, lol. He is a pretty regular kind of guy (besides all his special qualities, lol!), meaning his family, background, etc. He lives in the New York (until soon IY”H…), went to regular mesivta and then went to Eretz Yisroel to learn. He was in one of the places many BMG guys learn there. If this is like all not saying much, I guess he is a regular yeshiva guy in this aspect. Not like some of the out-of-town, small yeshiva, interesting family, guys I have dated. Not that some of those weren't real nice guys. I am just trying to describe the type of chosson I ended up finding B"H.<br /><br />As far as plans, we will be living IY”H right here in Lakewood. We do not have an apartment yet, but I just heard that he looked into someplace that sounds pretty good and I hope to go there soon with my mother to look at it. He will be continuing in the yeshiva and I will be continuing my job for now, but I will be looking for an afternoon job or maybe finally take the computer course I never ended up taking. Lots of friends say not to take too much as the housework gets like way more than you’d imagine, but I guess I still just can’t picture so much housework while it is just the two of us. Like I am so used to doing laundry and cooking for our pretty large family B”H, I hope I will manage with this. It almost seems like I will be going on vacation, and I think my mother is like trying to get in her last licks cause she is afraid of when she will lose my help, lol. I am sure my younger siblings will take over and do their fair share dutifully (right!).<br /><br />As far as myself, B”H we have found quite a lot of stuff so far, though it seems like we have hardly made a dent in ‘The To Do List’. I finally settled on a gown! Gosh, nothing can ever describe the feelings like when you are trying it on. Like I looked in the mirror and almost fainted! That was not me! I am this plain girl, not that glamorous kallah in white, satin, and lace looking back at me in the mirror. It took some time getting used to that. Then you just want to whirl and twirl in it but you feel too immature doing that. IY”H for all my friends the same feelings.<br /><br />What else? We got linen, housewares, stuff I never dreamed I would need, and stuff I had to convince my mother I can not live without. I have already some sheva brachos outfits (though I still hope to lose some more weight…), shoes, and get this – yes, a shaitel! Growing up regular yeshivish frum, you’d think it would be the most normal thing, like it’s something you know you will IY”H wear one day. No way. I could not get used to that I will actually be wearing that all day on my head! Ouch. I hope it eventually grows on me (no pun intended). Some friends and I used to have like this joke looking at new kallas and how they are almost ALWAYS adjusting their shaitel and tucking in their hair, etc. Well, now the joke’s on me. I will definitely be doing that all day. I hope I will manage not to get that in every sheva brachos picture.<br /><br />I could probably go on and on, but like it’s endless. I just wanted to share a little of the feel for all my readers who have been so kind to comment and visit my blog and share their opinions. I so feel like I am the same girl I always was and all this has to be someone else. I also know the feelings of yearning/happiness/frustration that can creep up on single girls reading this stuff. I was there too (although B”H I admit not for too long), and I hope never to lose my sensitivity to girls in any plight or just a down period of life. I wasn’t sure maybe just to not write anything and stick to issues, but I think that’s silly too. I hated being looked down on and when someone acted condescending to me. I know people are happy for you even though it may hurt. I am there with all of you, I really feel that. I don’t feel special or different in any way. And I have my heartfelt tefillos for every single one of my friends, like both in real life and on the blogosphere, for happiness always.<br /><br />I do wish to post about some issues. Husband in Kollel and me working. Girls being worldlier than I think the schools treat us as being. Making peace with your inner naughty self and the part of you that yearns for ruchnios and elevation (if I ever figure that one out myself!). These are some of the topics in my head. I don’t know if it’s a dream to write about them, because I hardly have time to properly post about anything and monitor my blog. But I do hope to try.<br /><br />One thing I will mention now. There was a big issue about my blog and how much I told my chosson and the whole thing made me give it a lot of thought. This is besides the LOTS of thought I already gave it before deciding how much to share as we were going out. So first of all let me share with everyone that besides that I think lots of people misunderstood me and I had told him a lot more than I think people realized, recently I told him about the blog too and stuff like that. So we are clean on that.<br /><br />Does that mean I told him EVERYTHING? No. And I don’t think he did either. I had already mentioned something that I once heard on a tape of Rabbi Avigdor Miller. He says that while communication and openness is vital, to tell your spouse every failing you have is plain stupid (his strong word, I think). So there is a fine line that I guess people have to think a lot about and if they are lucky, which I was not, to discuss it with someone they trust and respect. Like obviously some things if you keep a secret you will only break a trust and cause problems in the future. In my case I felt I couldn’t pretend to be the typical yeshivish, aidel BY girl who does not have internet. (I question if this is even true, like look at OnlySimchas for example, but okay, this is the stereotype for some reason.) So I told him that I have my open, worldly side, that I have read books, that I go online etc.<br /><br />Did I tell him that I have naughty fantasies about certain hot guys? No. Did he ever tell me that he had a yetzer hora and ended up looking at a girl? No he did not. But I think there is a difference. Like if had once hade a serious girl-friend (theoretically speaking, no he did not!) I would think I should know that. I’m not saying it disqualifies a guy or anything, but I think it is something I would feel I should have known. But does he have to tell me every time he couldn’t overcome a nisayon and if he ever flirted or something like that? I don’t even want to hear. Too much information. Okay, I admit I can’t picture him that way, and I wonder if he only pictures me as a sweet, innocent, aidel BY girl. Could be. But I know that I am human and I have spoken to him enough to tell, between the lines, that he is human too.<br /><br />I am not saying there are no bachurim who never look, think, flirt. I don’t know all bachurim. Maybe there are. But such a guy I admit is just not for me. I am not on such a high level. There are surely girls who, whether because they have worked harder than me, or their parents brought them up better, or they were less exposed than me, or they just don’t have such a curious, burning nature, but I know girls who are on a higher madrega than me. So let the tzadikim marry them. I want a good boy, a top boy even, I do think I have my good points and I try really hard, but I am no tzaddekes and I don’t imagine I am marrying a tzaddik. Do I want to get there with him IY”H? Sure. But right now I have to recognize where I am.<br /><br />I have gone slightly off topic here. Okay, this will have to do for now. Sorry if I went long. I finally had a chance to write. As always, I’d love to hear your thoughts on anything.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />posted by Elisheva @ 8:25 PM<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-8404916479494996889?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-63226762170161591702008-09-24T22:52:00.001-07:002008-09-24T22:53:11.040-07:00129 Comments:<br /> bmgbochur said... <br />I'm first for once.<br />wow<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:08 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />ok I just read your post.<br />MAZEL TOV,<br /><br />and for the only simchas post:<br />mazel tov, shevi and the lucky chosson, omg, I can't believe it, wow, your engaged, didn't I just see you yesterday, you should be zoche to build a bnb and be a source of nachas for your whole entire family, your chasunah should be at the right time, and you should live hapily ever after.<br /><br /><br />on a serious note, a big mazel tov to you, I think this is the biggest simcha ever on blogsphere. (just don't show your chosson the blog!)<br />it is so nice, and hopefully soon all you fellow blogsters will get engaged.<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:14 PM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />mazel tov indeed<br />lots of luck !<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:20 PM <br /> Mata Hari said... <br />Mazel Tov! Wonderful news.<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:24 PM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />also elisheva i think this blog will now take a huge turn as new issues will be your concern<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:26 PM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />one thing i noted that you seem to assume too much about your chossen you keep saying you think this and you think that <br />shouldnt you know for sure?<br />also not telling him about your blog is a step in the wrong direction as you will get used to hiding stuff from him<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:28 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />YY. Thanks for your concern. I say I think because my Bubby always says no one knows for sure until after 120. We do our best and trust we made the right decision. I don't mean I think as in a vague feeling. I mean it as in what I really believe from what I know.<br /><br />As far as the blog. Trust me, I thought about this long and hard. Like I said, I did tell him about going online and stuff. I don't think I have to go into specifics, but he knows what I think I should have told him. He didn't even know what a blog was when I mentioned them to him. But I understand your concern, it is a very valid concern I thought about and hope I made the right decision.<br /><br />I once heard a tape from R' Avigdor Miller where he says that while a couple shouldn't always keep secrect from each other, they are also stupid if they feel they have to tell each other of all their failings. So there is a fine line here.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:41 PM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />wow! thnx for the quick response<br />R' avigdor was a wise man indeed<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:51 PM <br /> s.f said... <br />mzt & u should build a bayis neeman byisraol<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:51 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />i was starting to wonder a bit, anyway all for the best. mazel tov!<br /><br />1/26/2006 4:00 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />its like OMG Mazal Tov!!!<br />May you build a BNB<br /><br />1/26/2006 4:14 PM <br /> typically frum said... <br />mazel tov. how were you able to hold it in all this time?<br /><br />1/26/2006 4:18 PM <br /> skeptic said... <br />She is NOT engaged just taking us all on for a ride.<br /><br />1/26/2006 4:26 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />I don't know if it is better not to call attention to it, or that I should. But I imagine sooner or later someone will discover it. <br /><br />I was told, and checked, that there is a Shevy from Lakewood who is on OnlySimchas from last week. NO, I am not her! I would never do that to her. And I wouldn't post it like this if I saw myself there.<br /><br />Mazel Tov to her as well!<br /><br />1/26/2006 4:27 PM <br /> typically frum said... <br />skeptic: you wish!!<br />anyway if its not true i get her first, lol!!!<br /><br />1/26/2006 4:34 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />mazel tov!!!!!!!!!! All the best, my heart is bursting with happiness for you and i am smiling so wide as I write this. everything should go smoothly. engagement is not easy. i was never engaged but i heard from alot of friends that alot of second guessing goes on so if you ever have some of it, just know that it's normal. i don't know why i told you that but i just want everything to go real nice and smooth. all the brachos in the world to you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />wow i am so happy!!<br /><br />1/26/2006 5:23 PM <br /> Scraps said... <br />Mazal tov! May you have lots of simcha, bracha, mazal, and shalom bayit, and may you be zocheh to build a bayit ne'eman b'Yisrael together.<br /><br />1/26/2006 5:28 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Ok, I already wished you Mazel Tov several times in private email.. But it would be wrong if I didnt so publicly here. I wish you all the Nachas in the world. May you be zocheh to build a bayis neeman b Yisroel and only experience happines bizt a hindrid in Tzvunsik.. <br /><br />And may we share many Simchas for many years to come..<br /><br />1/26/2006 5:30 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />I was waiting for you SG, especially. Your wishes mean so much to me. Thanks to everyone else too. All of you are so kind.<br /><br />Ms. Shtark, special thanks and also for the advice. I will take any I can get and hope I will make the best of all of it.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/26/2006 5:47 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />There were 2 shevy's from lakewood on only simchos<br /><br />1/26/2006 7:07 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />and two ruchy's saying OMG MT<br /><br />1/26/2006 7:09 PM <br /> Jewboy said... <br />Mazel Tov!!<br /><br />1/26/2006 7:24 PM <br /> Eshet Chayil said... <br />wow, I sure am late! Mazal tov eli. Keep us posted!<br /><br />1/26/2006 8:45 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Eli - A huge mazel tov! These are the kind of surprises we can appreciate. You and your chosson should build a Bayis Neeman B'Blogland (and B'Yisroel). Seriously, I hope you never lose your open mind. And I hope we don't lose you in blogland. When do we meet the Chosson? He can't hide from us forever! You guys should share the best life together, and bring nachas to all Klal Yisroel.<br /><br />1/26/2006 10:07 PM <br /> LIKE LIKE LIKE said... <br />LIKE mazel tov what happened to all the LIKES?<br /><br />1/26/2006 11:48 PM <br /> ClooJew said... <br />Mazel tov to you both!<br /><br />ALL the guys here are, lulei demistafina, SOOO jealous (but not me of course). I'm coming out of hibernation here just to wish you all the very best.<br /><br />Wonderful, wonderful news. May you build a bayis neeman beyisrael together.<br /><br />1/27/2006 12:29 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />CJ!!! I missed you, really. I hope you are hibernating for a good reason. I really appreciate your good wishes. That was so nice to come on. It means a lot to me.<br /><br />And I like edited my post cause like many people like e-mailed me about it and I figured I'd try harder. My chosson first like told me it was cute. Then after we got engaged we were talking once Shabbos afternoon and he is, "Elisheva, like please!" so I pouted and was like I thought you thought it was cute. And he is like when we started I did, and it still is, but this is a months more worth of likes! <br /><br />But really, he told me it doesn't bother him, and it is cute (at least he says so, maybe he's just being nice) but he thinks I should tone it down at least to sound a drop more grown up. He doesn't want people to think he is marrying a 10th grader!<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/27/2006 12:45 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />I think you should tell him about the blog even if he isn't familiar with blog-world, you can explain it to him... I apologize in advance if this advice hurts you in any way, but it is in my opinion as a married woman and one that's been in a wonderful relationship for a while now that you must be very open with him regarding such things and even if this is your private-diary-like-venting place, still you are in contact with people in some sort of a way and the point is that I know I wouldn't want my hubby to keep such a thing from me, I wouldn't mind if he blogged but I'd like ot be a part of it, to see it etc. think about it, wouldn't you?<br /><br />1/27/2006 6:41 AM <br /> On The Derech said... <br />Mazal Tov Elisheva!! May you be zoche to build a BNB full of clarity and happiness!<br /><br />1/27/2006 9:36 AM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />eli<br />5 "likes" left in your latest post and then its "like" free!<br /><br />1/27/2006 11:37 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />The engagement period is full of doubts the last thing you want to do is tell him when he might not be able to handle the truth and even if he can, his mother or any other person he would seek for advice may say something stupid, wait till you're married.<br />Then again if he does find it.......well if he isn't a man enough to understand or live with it he's not good enough for you <br />In my opinion there is a big difference between honest and open and drowning a fiancee in every sordid detail of your life like you mentioned before from Rabbi Miller (you can always refer him to this post if he CH"V finds out)<br /><br />1/27/2006 11:37 AM <br /> FrumSingleGuy said... <br />Mazel Tov Mazel Tov,<br />May you guys be zoche to build a beautiful loving relationship together and bezras hashem healthy and cute children. May you never forget the beautiful things that you find in eachother and may you always take a piece of the spark you have now- with you forever.<br />Elisheva, I look forward to reading more posts on your blog about your life now. And I proposition you to have your chosson become a guest blogger on your blog. What do you say guys? At least one post!<br /><br />1/27/2006 12:15 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Wow, CJ's back! Elisheva you really are special - It's like an idyllic Blogville Reunion. We share simchas!<br /><br />1/27/2006 12:27 PM <br /> Dave J. said... <br />This post has been removed by a blog administrator.<br /><br />1/27/2006 12:53 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Thank you everyone for all the beautiful brachos. They really brought tears to my eyes. (That is happening quite often lately...) It is so nice the achdus and that certain connection that we share here on the blogs. I wonder why that is? Maybe someone can do a post on that.<br /><br />About the blog and my chosson. I see that this is like becoming a thing and I totally undertsand. Like I said before and you can surely understand, I thought about this long and hard. I wish I could have asked advice, but that wasn't really feasable.<br /><br />I think some of you misunderstood. When I say I told him that I go online, I didn't mean in a general way. We had a talk. I waitied until we both knew this was like happening, and I trusted that he saw me for what I am. Believe me I would have rathered not saying a thing, and until the last second I kept thinking maybe I should, but I just couldn't go into this wondering what if he finds out and then...<br /><br />So I explained that I got a computer and he knew by then from lots of stuff we talked how i am like so curious about everything and not just satisfied with pat answers and like that. I told him I looked around online. He was like is it true what they all say? I told him that surely there are parts that are pretty scary and more than that. I said that obviously I myself didn't go to these terrible places (which is true)but like I can see what is out there and how bad it can get. I did admit that I did read and check out stuff that i probably should not have, and I understand why i would never want my child to have like free acess to go online, and maybe even myself at my age, curiousity (I didn't use the word horniness, I would die to tell him that) can get the better of me and I am not saying it was even good for me.<br /><br />But like I told him that this is what I am, like who he sees today is me so if there is anything negative that happened to me, then this is me, and if he thinks I am okay (he laughed at that) then it means that whatever I am it was after seeing and reading whatever I did.<br /><br />I don't know if I'm being clear. Sometimes these conversations are hard to put in writing. The thing is I told him that boys can e-mail you and also people you don't know. I told him how scary it is like if people who are not that strong would meet people from online, but I would never do that. And like the truth is I never did, and I know he trusts me on that. In a way it was so funny because I never dreamed I would have to explain the whole computer thing to a guy I was dating. He was the first guy I dated like that. I've dated more "yeshivish" guys than him who knew all about computers, internet and even blogs. I like gave him a crash course and I admit about the things that aren't good and I said it was a naughty part of me I guess that I just didn't comform and checked it out myself. But I hope i was mature enough to understand things and put them in the right context and not do anything stupid.<br /><br />Was I influenced by this? I probably was. So like I said, this is me, so what you see is what I am.<br /><br />The thing about R' Miller above, was that no, I didn't tell him details of what I saw, what was a nisayon for me, what made me horny and what I read that I shouldn't have. Like I said i think this a real fine line, and i thank Hashem that he understood and I guess likes me the way I am. I at times regretted going online just because I wonder if anyone would understand and maybe I really should not have ever started. Whatever, hashem was good to me and maybe because I was strong and like I am not saying I am any kind of saint, cause I totally thought things and flirted a drop and things like that, but I did control myself and didn't do anything stupid even though the hormones can like rage sometimes.<br /><br />So maybe I did a better job explaining this now. So, no, he doesn't specifically know I have my own blog (yes I do wonder what he'd think!), but he knows that I write to people and chat, and check things out and what I believe about it.<br /><br />Thanks again for all the wonderful brachos and best wishes and IY"H (if I can write that here, it is only from truly heart-felt feelings) by all of us!<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/27/2006 1:33 PM <br /> Halfnutcase said... <br />elisheva, i didn't forget to give you a mazeltov, its comment ten, but anyway mazeltov.<br /><br />i hope you have many happy years together, and that when ever you fight you should make heart felt appologies to each other.<br /><br />1/27/2006 2:19 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Shev... very nice comment .. Hope I am going to hear from you before Shabbos..<br /><br />1/27/2006 2:43 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />HNC - Sorry. Guess I missed it and I do think about you so I wanted to make sure. That was a very cute bracha and I guess realistic. IY"H it should always be mekuyam.<br /><br />SG - You did!<br /><br />Gut Shabbos all.<br /><br />1/27/2006 3:19 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Mazel tov. I am one of probably many people who have lurked on your Blog but never commented. However for such good news i felt it is only proper that i should wish you much Mazel and Hatzlocha.<br /><br />1/28/2006 8:17 PM <br /> Chillin in The Lake said... <br />I am soo happy for you Mazel Tov. Now I see why u did not write back... You know feel free.... Im so happy for you hope you enjoy every second of it now and cherish it later....<br /><br />1/28/2006 9:36 PM <br /> G Green said... <br />מזל טוב!<br /><br />I dont think you'd need to tell him everything you have seen or written online, just as you wouldent need to tell him everything you have ever done or said to anyone in person. (I am guessing u havent given him blog address.) I think going forward though, you need to be open about it.<br /><br />1/28/2006 9:56 PM <br /> Mata Hari said... <br />Eli - Are you going to continue blogging?<br /><br />1/28/2006 10:05 PM <br /> turquoiseblue said... <br />Elisheva - **MAZAL TOV** again! And I ditto all the wonderful wishes/berachaos blogcommenters sent your way...<br /><br />R'Miller is right... there is absolutely no need, to tell your chosson about your blog... especially if he doesn't really know what it is. It is enough that you gave him a general idea that you are internet savvy but know your limits etc etc... IMHO.<br /><br />Hope you'll continue to blog - but if not - at least it will be for a GREAT reason!<br /><br />1/29/2006 1:13 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Gut Voch everyone. It's like too late and I better go to bed fast. I just had to write a cute thing that happened with my chosson this Friday night.<br /><br />He ate by us the Friday night meal. And my brothers were talking about BMG (yeshiva) politics (does that like ever stop?) and they were saying how there are supposed to be blogs just about all this stuff and what they heard was on it. And I'm like edgy because of all the talk of blogs.<br /><br />So one of my brothers teases my chosson, like you don't have a clue about these things. So he says, "Elisheva is giving me an educaton." So my father says, it's really not good for you to know too much, Elisheva.<br /><br />And my chosson says, "Elisheva is such a good girl (and my siblings are all rolling their eyes, lol!) so she obviously can handle whatever she knows."<br /><br />Thought that was real neat and my father was like stumped for a minute. But I do think he was happy. (My mother on the other hand...) It's nice to have someone stick up for me, but more importantly, I think it means he 'gets' what I thought he did.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/29/2006 2:21 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Mazel tov. Cute story, but it can be a dead giveaway if anyone who knows the story from you or your chosson or your siblings happens to see it written here.(unless this is the only place you mention it and you dont think that anyone else would mention it.)<br /><br />1/29/2006 2:57 AM <br /> Michelle said... <br />Mazal Tov! All the best, kid.<br /><br />1/29/2006 12:52 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Thanks Michelle. And hope your blog wins!<br /><br />Anon, don't worry, I don't tell like hardly anyone in real life about my blogs or that I know about them, so like this isn't the type of stuff I tell my friends and the truth is my frummy friends wouldn't exactly think it is a good thing either.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/29/2006 6:38 PM <br /> Lvnsm27 said... <br />Oh my gosh! <br /><br />Mazal Tov! And hatzlacha :)<br /><br />1/29/2006 6:53 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Hello Elisheva ..happy surfing..<br /><br />http://yeshivasociety.blogspot.com/<br /><br />1/29/2006 11:14 PM <br /> AnonyOne said... <br />mazel tov!<br /><br />1/29/2006 11:21 PM <br /> Pragmatician said... <br />Terrific news, you can see how many bloggers are joining in your Simcha.<br />I don't think you have to tell him about your blog, unless you want to of course.<br /><br />1/30/2006 8:19 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Long time reader, first time poster.<br /><br />Big Mazal tov to you.<br /><br />Finaly you can share your frilly undergarments with someone. Does he know about the fetish for animal print?<br /><br />1/30/2006 9:14 AM <br /> Moochy said... <br />Congrats!!!!! <br /><br />Its fun to be happy for a stranger :)<br /><br />Mazel Tov!!!<br /><br />1/30/2006 10:44 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />MAZEL TOV!!!I feel like a friend got engaged.May your chossen only see the good side of you.So is yor chossen a dorm guy or an irv guy?<br /><br />1/30/2006 1:54 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />from the crazy house<br /><br />1/30/2006 2:19 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />That was really nice, last anonymous, lol! Or was that no pun intended?<br /><br />Pragmatician and Moochy and the others, thatks so much. it's really so nice and cool in a way all the anonymous sharing and well wishing. By all of you whatever you need.<br /><br />And gosh, i didn't realize a one time buy as a teen-ager classifies as a fetish! I don't think I'll live that one down here in blogville. I really was talking more lace than animal prints. And IY"H I do hope to try as best I can to do whatever it is I am supposed to do to make our life together purposefull, and fun too!<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/30/2006 2:56 PM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />Ok - My personal Mazal Tov!<br />Yes, I do sometimes post here on your blog, but with your so many commentors, I guess my small remarks get lost in the crowd! Mazal Tov Mazal Tov! I am so very happy for you. May you ALWAYS be lucky enough to be HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY! Thanks for your entertaining blog!<br /><br />1/30/2006 4:17 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />so dear y not tell y not tell us a bit about the lucky guy, his personlty, how old is he /is he a bmg guy/do u ppl have a chasuna date yet/ did we miss your shower or can we still participate/(i suggest we have our own i would participate)will u be living in lkwd/ey/elsewhear? is it long time learning/couple years then chinuch/work ? i m (as prob. all of us r )bursting with ? ,so elisheva share the details, also i m wondering if u will invite all the gf from blogworld ,sg,fg,ec.otd.& all the rest (for the guys well i m sure the lkwd guys have there guesses as to who u r so u never know they may pop in at katzad mrakdim lol)who will u go to for kalah clases egk/eh/(forgot the others lol)?<br /><br />1/30/2006 5:41 PM <br /> Elster said... <br />Mazal Tov. Wonderful news<br /><br />1/30/2006 5:47 PM <br /> FrumGirl said... <br />Mazel Tov! What wonderful news! May you build a BNB... and much hatzlacha!<br /><br />1/30/2006 6:00 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Whatever you do make sure you go to someone good for your kallah classes. You dont want some rebitzen to start stuffing chumras down your throat. Many of the kallah teachers make it sound shameful to be expressive of yourself. <br /><br />Most the chumras the kallah teachers tell you are really going to suprise your chosson<br /><br />1/30/2006 8:40 PM <br /> The Rabbi's Kid said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />It is wonderful to hear you have found your bechirat libech, the one who will walk through life's travails with you and be there for you whenever you need. I hope that you have many long years of happiness together, health, simcha, and only good times.<br /><br />TRK<br /><br />1/31/2006 2:51 AM <br /> Datingmaster, Jerusalem said... <br />mazaltov may you be happy together and also show a lot of understanding<br /><br />1/31/2006 8:47 AM <br /> A Frum Idealist said... <br />Mazal Tov. All the very best to you and your chosson<br /><br />1/31/2006 9:33 AM <br /> Elster said... <br />I know I posted a mazal tov but it seems to have disappeared. So...once again, Mazal Tov Elisheva - only health, happiness and (many) children with your new chosson.<br /><br />1/31/2006 10:01 AM <br /> Shevy said... <br />OMG!!!! MAZEL TOV Elisheva!!! I am sooo excitement for you and can't wait for your wedding. Looks like you and Chosson make a surprisingly gorgeous couple! U know we've been waiting for this day ever since Chol Hamoed St. Patricks Day. I remember that time in Israel when you got ur liver stuck in the door like it was yesterday. Oy, those were the dayz. May you two love-coffee be zoche to have a long, warm, and happy life together 4eva, and build a bayis ne'eman b'Lakewood!!!! Seeya at the Shmorg!!!! Love, Me(duh!!)<br /><br />Generated by the Only Simchas Comment Generator from bangitout.com.<br /><br />1/31/2006 10:26 AM <br /> Mata Hari said... <br />shevy - why a surprisingly gorgeous couple? what's surprising about it?<br /><br />now you've tantalized us with quasi-details. of course we want more.<br /><br />1/31/2006 12:29 PM <br /> David_on_the_Lake said... <br />Mazel Tov....<br />So nice to hear Good News..<br />Iy'h by all of you..Soon...<br /><br />1/31/2006 1:11 PM <br /> Elishava'a Choson said... <br />Well, all of you commentators know that Elisheva is not going to be blogging after we're married.<br /><br />1/31/2006 2:37 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Again, everybody, this is really overwhelming. It's like a whole other vort after the real one. I think it is so nice and all the wishes mean much to me and I so davcen for all of you for whatever you need.<br /><br />Specialx, sorry if it came out wrong. I did think I saw you here, but not too much. It is hard to remember with so many comemnts and so little time to read them and post. I meant I didn't think you visited here regularly. Thanks loads for the well wishes.<br /><br />s.f. I hope to post some details soon.<br /><br />Shevy, that was so cute and hysterical!<br /><br />Mati, she didn't mean anything real, so no little details. She was imitating the typical OnlySimchas posts.<br /><br />My "chosson", very cute. You wish! I just feel I have to clarify because of all the wacky e-mails I am getting with like theoties and stuff: No, this guy is not my chosson, and no one here knows me (I hope) so don't go crazy. Everything is in good humor (I hope). I love you all (okay maybe not all and maybe not love, but you get my feeling) but I just think for me as much as I'd love to share everything with everyone, I just think anonymity will work the best for me, otherwise my blog is over. So I hope to post soon with details so you can get the general feel, while protecting my future and that of this blog.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/31/2006 2:45 PM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />Thanks Elisheva!<br />We're waiting for the details eagerly!<br /><br />1/31/2006 2:52 PM <br /> Elishava'a Choson said... <br />Yes, I was just joking, you CAN continue your blogging.<br /><br />1/31/2006 2:55 PM <br /> Mata Hari said... <br />eli -<br />why don't you register at macy's under elisheva semstory and see how many gifts you get :)<br /><br />i love how you call me mati - you turned an international spy into a jewish name.<br /><br />1/31/2006 3:26 PM <br /> Bracha said... <br />Mazel Tov Elisheva! (Is that your real name) Only happiness and health and allgood things for your chosen and yourself. May you build a bayis neemon byisroel!<br /><br />Want to go lingerie shopping with me??? Best,<br /><br />Bracha<br /><br />1/31/2006 6:13 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Elisheva, you say that noone here knows you. I bet that half the girls on here are your real life frummy friends and you all think you are the only one of your group of friends blogging. Just joking but hey you never know.<br /><br />1/31/2006 6:20 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Anonymous, that is a very good observation, and I like wonder about that all the time. Like are my friends as out of the things as I think they are? or maybe not, cause like I'm sure lots of them think I am also a typical frummy aidel maidel just like them. Or maybe they think they are more worldly than me and are embarrassed to talk just as I am.<br /><br />But then again, I do think most of my good friends know that I am a little more worldly, not as party-line as them and lots of them ask me stuff when suddenly they need an opinion of like real life as opposed to how it's 'supposed' to be.<br /><br />Either way, even if half of you are my great friends (lol, what a thought!), we don't know that, and that's what I meant.<br /><br />Bracha, I'd honestly love to. Like I didn't start classes yet, but it doesn't seem like shopping wait till then. My mother already is making plans for all the shopping, and though she seems more flexible since I got engaged, I am not comfortable asking her stuff and she isn't really telling me things outright, just that now I can buy stuff more suitible for a kallah - whatever that means. <br /><br />So much as I think my gut femininity is good here, a little help from a married frum lady who understands me and where I am coming from would be great. Most of my friends are still single and either way, I never went lingerie shopping with them. My sem friends, who I have gone with, would be too immature about this, and though i admit I was immature with them too, at least now I would like to do thinks right and be a little grown up. Okay, just rambling, but I'll manage, like I hope IY"H I will figure everything out in the right way.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/31/2006 6:50 PM <br /> eli said... <br />Mazel Tov Elisheva.... I am extremely happy for you.. <br /><br />www.esefer.blogspot.com has a whole post on Lakewood blogs and you aren't even mentioned. Thats not right..<br /><br />1/31/2006 7:30 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />A word on Calla classes..be afraid, be very afraid. And take everything the lady says with a grain of salt..Then tell your husband to speak to the Rov of Forest Park.. It will save your Shalom Bayis..<br /><br />1/31/2006 7:56 PM <br /> FaigyP said... <br />See you in Saposh 2<br /><br />1/31/2006 7:58 PM <br /> nobody28 said... <br />Mazal Tov!!!<br /><br />I know you don't really know me, though I have commented on your blog a couple times, but I would be willing to be the "married frum lady" - anonymously of course, that could answer questions you have through email.... post here if your interested and I'll email you (you could ask semgirl about me if you're nervous...)<br /><br />2/01/2006 8:39 AM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />Nobody28 - May we all come to you for classes, or only Elisheva?<br /><br />2/01/2006 9:44 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />Go to Yuyu Freedman for kalla classes (stay away from the kotler s. JMHO)<br />Hey anon are you like crazy??? why should she be afraid??<br />Dont be afraid at all just if you have like a question, ASK! If you don't understand, ASK!<br />The main problem both boys and s have is they are afraid to ask.<br />WE took the JME course in Israel (but don't practice here in lakewood because ......better left unsaid or in a different blog) and they had a question and answer session with everyone passing their questions up on paper (to preserve Anonimity) you'd be surprised what was asked, given the opportunity. if you have any<br />questions we'd be happy to answer<br /><br />2/01/2006 10:28 AM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />MAZAL TOV!!!!!!!!!<br />i was out of the office for a few days so i did't hear the good news! may you be zoche to build a bayis ne'eman b'yisroel, l'shem u'lisif'eres.<br />no advice from me, i'm sure you'll figure it all out without my help.<br /><br />2/01/2006 10:42 AM <br /> nobody28 said... <br />specialx2 - lol - no classes, just someone to ask questions to if needed.....<br /><br />2/01/2006 11:01 AM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />nobody - whatever you call it, is the offer only for elisheva, or a public offer?<br /><br />2/01/2006 11:17 AM <br /> Bracha said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />I'm sure you will do just fine shopping on your own for lingerie.<br /><br />But understand that your husband probably won't appreciate at first at least the effort that you put in to buy and wear fine lingerie but wear it for yourself and he will come around hopefully.<br /><br />Again, if you have any questions, feel free to give me a shout at brachawein@gmail.com <br /><br />Bracha<br /><br />2/01/2006 11:19 AM <br /> Fotheringay-Phipps said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />My advise is to close this blog immediately. If you are what you portray yourself as and your choson is anything like you are portraying him, that is. I haven't read through everything you've written, but I've seen a lot of stuff you've written which would cause any serious yeshiva guy to rethink (rightly or wrongly) whether this is really someone he should be marrying.<br /><br />I obviously agree that you should not tell your choson anything about this blog. But I also think you are living very dangerously in your assumption that you can expect your identity to never be exposed. There are a lot of other people who have operated with this assumption and turned out to be wrong. IMHO, you really have to be prepared for the possibility that your choson will end up reading every word you've written here. Not a pleasant thought (again, if the guy is as yeshivish as you suggest).<br /><br />I don't expect that this opinion will be positively received on this blog, which contains people of divergent backgrounds, united mostly in their favorable opinion of blogs. And I don't really expect that you will give up this fun outlet either. But that's what I think, and as you seem like a decent person, I figured that opinion should be out there as well. Your call.<br /><br />2/01/2006 1:12 PM <br /> nobody28 said... <br />specialx2 - sure you can ask - but I don't want to post my email, and I see you don't have yours posted.... let me know how to get in touch with you...<br /><br />2/01/2006 1:47 PM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />See - Thats a problem, I can't post my email here either!<br /><br />2/01/2006 2:01 PM <br /> nobody28 said... <br />:) I guess we're both paranoid people!<br /><br />2/01/2006 2:01 PM <br /> limey said... <br />Nobody and special get gmail accounts! they are free, have auto forward and can be anon!<br /><br />2/01/2006 2:07 PM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />Limey - so can aim, yahoo, and aol accounts be....<br /><br />2/01/2006 2:43 PM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />Limey - so can aim, yahoo, and aol accounts be....<br /><br />2/01/2006 2:43 PM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />This post has been removed by a blog administrator.<br /><br />2/01/2006 2:43 PM <br /> limey said... <br />so post your email!<br /><br />2/01/2006 3:49 PM <br /> limey said... <br />or are you just a troll.........<br /><br />2/01/2006 3:50 PM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />a troll?<br /><br />2/01/2006 4:01 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Wow, lots of advice. My friend said the most advice you get is when you are pregnant, but I wonder if on the blogs maybe it's when you are engaged.<br /><br />About the classes, I realize it is a sensitive subject and people have stories. I have heard some (in general terms) as well. I don't think this has to be discussed here. Let's just say that I am not the typical just follow the crowd girl, so I am doing research, and yes, I will ask if I have to, if not the lady I am by, then I will find some one I am more comfortable with (I hope...) So let's leave that. I hope I'll be alright.<br /><br />F-P ( I can't figure out that name, but okay...) I see you mean your advice well. I do see your point. You may be right and I'm being silly and pushing the limits. But I did say that he is NOT your typical yeshivish guy, liek others I have dated who i have no boubt would dump me in a second if they knew, just as I wasn't interested in those kinds.<br /><br />He is frum, a ben torah, and not worldly, but not party line close-minded yeshivish. No, I can't picture him, reading my blog, like I can't picture talking to him about lots of things yet. But I do think we will get closer and I can't say that he would be necessarily upset about anything I posted here. Maybe shocked about stuff he doesn't know, or doesn't know I know, but not upset. And it wouldn't be a shock about a blog, because he does know a little. But Again, you have a good point, and either way, I have some topics I would like to post about and after that I just don't know what will be.<br /><br />Nobody, I always wondered why you were a regular on SGs and other blogs and not here. I thought you must have not gone for my style or whatever. I was always impressed with what you wrote. I would be glad to have a frum married normal person to e-mail, especially one that understands Lakewood.<br /><br />Bracha I will e-mail you too IY"H. <br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/01/2006 4:06 PM <br /> limey said... <br />Internet troll<br />From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia<br />Jump to: navigation, search<br />In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who posts rude or offensive messages on the Internet, such as on online discussion forums, to disrupt discussion or to upset its participants. "Troll" can also mean the message itself or be a verb meaning to post such messages. "Trolling" is also commonly used to describe the activity.<br /><br />2/01/2006 5:33 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />What would be realyy funny is if your chosson was "yeshivabochor"<br />http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=11998832&postID=113806216588177527<br /><br />2/01/2006 6:02 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />limey, I don't think anyone is trolling. Not everyone wants to post their e-mail or make up new ones. Everyone can do as they are like comfortable with.<br /><br /><br />Anon, Yeshiva Bachur is engaged to someone who I think is already known by now, as he is too. I am not 100% sure so I won't post it here, but i am almost positive that it is already public knowledge both him and his kallah.<br /><br />Mazel Tov to them.<br /><br />2/01/2006 6:49 PM <br /> Y.Y. said... <br />nobody28 and secialx2 are the same beware elisheva of this sick pervy guy<br /><br />2/02/2006 5:12 AM <br /> nobody28 said... <br />It's because of guys like YY that I won't even post my anonymous email address... I don't want anyone stalking or bothering me..<br /><br />2/02/2006 7:29 AM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />NOBODY - I agree!<br />Only the two of us can know the real truth as to how extremely offensive he is.<br />Last time I looked at myself, I was special, and NOT nobody!<br /><br />2/02/2006 9:38 AM <br /> nobody28 said... <br />lol - hmmm... how do we connect?<br /><br />2/02/2006 9:39 AM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />I'm thinking I'm thinking.<br /><br />2/02/2006 9:44 AM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />You think too, please.<br /><br />2/02/2006 9:44 AM <br /> nobody28 said... <br />email elisheva and she'll send me your address? I just emailed her and she has my address...<br /><br />2/02/2006 9:47 AM <br /> Josh said... <br />Nobody and Special - Why can't you just both email Elisheva and have her put you guys in touch?<br /><br />Elisheva - One of the things that I've always appreciated about you and your blog is that you represent Torah Judaism so unabashedly, yet aren't afraid to be exposed to other views. I'm sure that this is one of the things that your Chosson loves about you. <br /><br />As far as continuing your blog, I am of the opinion that you should continue it, but that your Chosson should know about it. Because blogging, and even the internet, is taboo in your community, it would be unfair to have this secret from him. Whether or not your identity is ever compromised, and regardless of the actual thoughts you share here, I just think that a husband and wife should be on the same page. While spouses don't need to know everything that the other one is doing (I don't think there would be anything wrong with maintaining a diary, or something like that), I think that you don't want to create a whole world online that your Chosson isn't a part of, or even aware of. While I admire SG for showing her current male friend (it should be for the best) her blog, you don't have to go that far, but I would at least make sure that he knows what blogging is and that he knows you have your own blog. I guess he could probably figure out which blog is yours pretty quickly, but since he probably doesn't have internet access nor show that much interest in things outside of Torah, he may never actually read it. That is just my opinion, and I'm sharing only because I care! I hope you'll make whatever decision you're comfortable with. I just want to keep hearing good news!<br /><br />2/02/2006 9:54 AM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />Nobody - I might<br /><br />2/02/2006 10:49 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />I would tend to agree with a previous poster here that your playing with fire by continuing to blog. Anybody who know yeshiva guys knows, that no matter how open minded they are, they have a rebbe/rosh yeshiva who they trust. I mean every last guy in the Irv or dorm, no matter how "breit", asks by somebody. Now, when your choson finds out (and he will) he will not make his own decision on this. I dont care how open minded he is. I was in the Irv and there are some guys who to call them "open minded" would be an understatement. Yet. when push came to shove, they all have someone they trust and ask by.<br />When your choson asks somebody (and i dont care how open minded he is) (even R' Gissinger, shlita), you are gonna have problems. I 'm not saying that theyll tel him to break it off, but I do think they are going to want to speak to you, read the blog, ect..) It aint goin to be pleasant.<br />I'll be honest, i like to call myself a pretty open minded guy, but if someone came to me asking the question, there is no way i would just say knee jerk, "yes, no problem, shes just worldly."<br />Elisheva, your plaing russian roullette and the stakes are pretty damn high!!!<br />Good Luck<br /><br />2/02/2006 1:51 PM <br /> Fotheringay-Phipps said... <br />Elisheva,<br /><br />I don't anticipate arguing the blog issue further, as it's your decision and your life. Best of luck, whatever you do.<br /><br />But I do want to make one point that has a more general application. It is a mistake to automatically equate disapproval of something, even strong disapproval, with "party line close-minded[ness]". These concepts are not necessarily correlated (although they may be related in a given instance). There are frequently genuine grounds for disapproval of a given activity, and even if you yourself disagree with someone else's disapproval, this may be a legitimate difference of opinion rather than an instance of close-mindedness on the part of the other.<br /><br />It's particularly striking in that you yourself seemed to concede that at least some of your activity here constituted a "failing" (that you therefore intended to keep secret). This seems to contradict your subsequently presenting potential unease with your activities as being necessarily the result of close-mindedness.<br /><br />(If you'll forgive my suggestion, I think sometimes people can be influenced by the atmosphere and society in subtle ways that they themselves may not be aware of. Sometimes this takes the form of adopting a terminology and frame of reference from other people, which can have a subtle and subconscious influence. This may have relevance here. Or not.)<br /><br />2/02/2006 3:05 PM <br /> Mata Hari said... <br />FP - you're a lawyer, correct?<br /><br />2/02/2006 7:54 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />lol.<br />i'm not going to agree or disagree with any sides in the duscussion at hand. however, there is one point i wuld like to make.<br />NOT EVERYONE has someone they can trust and talk to. it all depends on the yeshiva/yeshivos he went to BEFORE lakewood.<br /><br />2/02/2006 8:20 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Shev..we havent heard from you all day.. I miss you.<br /><br />2/02/2006 11:00 PM <br /> Chillin in The Lake said... <br />I dont remember who it was, but someone commented that you should buy lingerie for yourself and he will come around. Every one is different so that is a very not fair statement. There are plenty of frum, good, Yeshiva guys who will appreciate it very much. For many reasons, some because they want it, some cause they see the kallah understands what a guy needs and likes, even if hes frum etc... <br />About your blog, I think you write well and do it all in a very nice way.<br /><br />2/03/2006 9:53 AM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />enough about the lingerie. so elisheva, did you get a gown yet, sheva brachos suits? are u living in lw or somewhere else like israel? can't wait to here all the good details!!<br /><br />2/03/2006 10:52 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Geshmaker,<br />I'll agree its not everybody, nut its 95% of the guys. And you'll agree with me that if Elisheva's choson has somebody he asks, then he is going to go straight to whoever that is and ask him what to do.<br />And then the fit will hit the shan (wink wink)<br /><br />2/05/2006 8:09 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />why do i get the feeling like you're hoping something like this happens?<br />can you be such a big shmuck?!?!<br /><br />2/06/2006 3:08 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />I couldn't get online for a while. Everyone please let's discuss things politely. I don't even have a clue what "the fit will hit the shan" is supposed to mean. If it's a guy thing, this is a girl's blog, so please cool it.<br /><br />About my chosson and my blog. I don't know why people couldn't read when i wrote so many times that I DID tell him about my internet access. Anyway we had a longer discussion recently, about my blog and stuff. It wasn't what some of you might think, because it was the surprise some of you seem to think it would be. He DID know this kind of stuff not details. I would not have done it unless he did. Anyway, we spoke, we're okay. No, he does not know the name of my blog, (I guess if he'd go online, he'd find it pretty easily). He said he doesn't have to see it unless I feel comfortable showing it to him. This may sound a little dificult, but like real life is not always easy to describe online esecially if I'm trying to keep my anonimity. So whatever, we're cool. Hope that calms the concerned people. I really, really, do hope to post soon.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/06/2006 3:57 PM <br /> specialx2 said... <br />Hey Shev! It's good to hear from you!<br /><br />2/06/2006 4:09 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />elisheva do you know how to wurn around tords? (turn around words) he meant to say shit will hit the fan<br /><br />2/06/2006 5:35 PM <br /> ChanaR said... <br />Duh... anon, I dont think Elisheva is that clueless, she was just trying to say keep the coarse language off my blog in a polite way.<br /><br />Anon, since I am not as 'eidl' as her, I will just straight out say, "Hey, anon, YOU ARE A CREEP , go back to the dorm and entertain yourself ".<br /><br />2/06/2006 7:12 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />ENTERTAIN YOURSELF???<br /><br />Now what does that mean?? You were not joking when you said you werent "eidl"<br /><br />2/07/2006 12:27 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Okay, I really hope to post soon. I don't want a repeat of all the horrid comments and people getting upset like on last post. Please, if there is nothing more to say (which there probably isn't, lol) then just cool it until my next post. I really, hope later tonight.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />2/07/2006 8:52 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />chanar maybe you can come and entertain me :-)<br /><br />2/07/2006 8:55 PM <br /> brianna said... <br />Mazal Tov, Eli. Feel like we're all one big happy family these days. Sorry I'm so late...almost been too busy for me OWN blog lately.<br /><br />No advice from me. Enjoy everyone cooing over you during your engagement.<br /><br />2/07/2006 11:46 PM <br /> ChanaR said... <br />Anon, in your dreams, LOSER..<br /><br />2/08/2006 8:55 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />will the real anon please stand up please stand up please stand up<br /><br />2/08/2006 9:48 AM<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-6322676217016159170?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-39596983424296890122008-09-24T22:49:00.000-07:002008-09-24T22:51:50.748-07:00<strong>Thursday, January 26, 2006<br />MAZEL TOV!!! MAZEL TOV!!! <br /><br />Where do I start? Mazel Tov! Yes, I am B"H engaged!<br /><br />For all those who wondered about my long absences and sporadic online comments, I was kind of busy, lol. It actually happened sometime during the last month. I'm sure you all understand given my circumstances, that I had to wait a drop before making this official to all my blog friends and acquaintances. I have this blog as a place for me to vent and whatever, as we just discussed in the comments to the previous post, but I am not one of those girls who my friends or anyone I really know know about my blog or even that I go online that much. Then there are the many real scary people you get e-mail from. Let me say, thay are a minority, and I met like loads of real wonderful people here, people I wish I knew in real life. But you have to be aware of the other kinds of people and I decided on discretion winning out.<br /><br />So though I was back more regularly recently, it was hard to put together my thoughts too well. And for those who would love to post on my “OnlySimchas page”, your best wishes are so appreciated and you can post them here. The funniest thing is that I checked, and I am not even on OnlySimchas, because my friends and crowd is like so not that type, and most do not really go online that much or have computers. So this is my place, my little secret hideaway, my home away from home.<br /><br />As far as the rest. Okay, so he is B"H obviously what I hope is great for me, or I wouldn't be typing this now, right? He is most of all a mentch. He is normal. They say a serious learner (No I didn't farher him). Okay, this is real life, he is not like drop-dead-make-your-heart-race gorgeous, but he is handsome (and tall!), and has a grin that to me makes him look irresistible! He is not as worldly as I ever imagined my chosson being. I was told by a dear friend now that this is for the best because it is better for the girl to be worldly than the guy. We did talk a lot and I came to believe that he isn’t close-minded to stuff, just not as exposed and curious about stuff as I am. I ususaly have a way with words (I think), but I like couldn’t get in words what Josh (who I also just told recently) put so well, so I will use his words which I think so perfectly describe my feelings about this: “As far as your "quirks", even though your chosson seems very straight-laced, I'll bet he totally picked up on all your "naughtiness" and it's probably one of the things he likes most about you. Every Yeshiva Bochur wants a kallah with an "exciting" streak.” I don’t know if he picked up on all my naughtiness, but enough that makes me comfortable that there will be no shocks, and I do think he likes that. I know he mentioned that he likes that I am aidel and sweet without having “missed the boat.” So okay, we did it, and we’re davening for it to work out for the best!<br /><br />I also appreciate the nice thoughts and comments to my long comment on my last post. I read it again, and it really should have been its own post. I guess I just started typing and it just kept going. I do hope to also write about some more important issues that seem to be out there, but I guess also about the little things that make up our lives, or at least my life. I do not know if I will have the blog up to and after my wedding IY”H. We did not discuss that yet. Yes, he does know that I have access. I didn’t feel it right not to tell him anything. He doesn’t know the first thing about blogs, so I didn’t tell him about this. But we did have a general discussion, and he seems open that like people do have to use it, but it is also dangerous which I totally agree with.<br /><br />My thoughts are all muddled now, so I will just leave it at this. Just wanted to share the news with all of you. Thanks for all your input as always.<br /><br />Shalom.<br /><br />posted by Elisheva @ 3:07 PM </strong><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-3959698342429689012?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-83888103981254003702008-09-24T22:45:00.000-07:002008-09-24T22:49:01.012-07:00152 Comments:<br /> Semgirl said... <br />Just wanted to say.. hooray I am #1. Now I will read it..<br /><br />1/04/2006 8:37 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Unbelievable.. That is the best post or comment you ever wrote.You really hit the nail on the head on like so may points.<br /><br />And thanks for the compliment, I assure you its mutual..<br /><br />1/04/2006 9:11 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Wow, that's "like" brilliant! <br /><br />Basic hakaras hatov should not be trumped by a person's chumros of frumkeit.<br /><br />Great job!!! <br /><br />And now we know that SemGirl's name is Rochel!!!!<br /><br />1/04/2006 9:24 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Elisheva Your hatred for coming from a yeshivishe home and being a true blue lakewooder is realy driving you nuts you cant think straight. the germans were also very proper with etiquette,dont think that mentchlichkeit comes from the goyim no one is not saying thank you bcuz its goyish he just dosent have good middos,and must work on himself.<br /><br />1/04/2006 10:19 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />happy to hear from u again figured u were busy hope it works out for the best with a deserving boy, (was looking forward to hear your take on dealing with internet ) as to your post, the idea is true btw u will find it intresting that there r exact details spelld out in sha"s & sforim for xample r yakov emdin in his siddur discusses how a male should compliment the women of the house when he is a guest there for a meal, & there r many more xamples & not inall cases do they fit what me & u may consider right or wrong so details r hard to tell but the general idea is true as for taking it to far the chazon ish in his igros (leeters) xplains that youngsters generaly only see black & white therfore at many times there actions may be wrong but its better to err in this direction then the other (lol i better stop now as i can go on on this topic for a while) in anycase all the best to both u & sg<br /><br />1/04/2006 10:42 PM <br /> Eshet Chayil said... <br />Plenty of people still check your blog. Including me. I think you have an amazing way of expressing yourself, and we hope you find the time to keep us updated.<br /><br />1/04/2006 11:59 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Thanks so much SG, SF and EC! You are too kind.<br /><br />I'd hate to start off this with any negativity but I guess the second Mr. Anonymous sort of went negative.<br /><br />There is little to respond other to say that your problem isn't with hashkafa, you simply don't know how to read. Maybe like if you learned how, you wouldn't see things so negatively.<br /><br />My whole point was that mentchlichkeit is not goyish and does not come from the goyim as in the Germans yimach shmom. <br /><br />I love Lakewood, I love my yeshivish upbringing, and I'm sorry that it bothers you that that still does not make me too close-minded to see how silly it is to think that all mentchlichkeit is ettiquette and therefore goyish and therefore bad.<br /><br />What you were saying was my whole point, but I guess you were too busy thinking about me to concentrate on what I wrote. Hope we can agree on it now.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/05/2006 12:50 AM <br /> big mak said... <br />hi elisheva! great job bringing your point across. i agree with everything you wrote. great composition skills!! looking forward to hear more from you<br /><br />1/05/2006 2:07 AM <br /> big mak said... <br />first anonymous: well if you wanted to find out what semgirl's name was you could have just looked at her profile and press EMAIL, but anyway not everyone is so computer literate<br /><br />1/05/2006 2:09 AM <br /> The Chainik Hocker said... <br />Excellent post. <br /><br />If I may be dan lekaf zchus for a second...?<br /><br />Frum people often act nasty and hostile, it is true. That does not mean they ARE nasty or hostile. It just means that they are tough. Living in Brooklyn is difficult. Its dirty and dangerous and the traffic is horrific and gas is a gazillion dollars a t-spoon and you can never ever find a parking spot and you allways walk into Shomer Shabbos after borchu no matter what. There are too many fish in too small a pond trying to eat not enough plankton, or whatever it is fish eat, and only the strong survive. <br /><br />In order to survive in our ultacompetitive world, you have to be tough. You have to get there first and grab the most and get away the fastest, because if you don't some other fish is going to chap your parking spot or your the last space in the really good playgroup.<br /><br />Thats how people survive. Unfortunatly, people don't know how to turn that off when they need to.<br /><br />I grew up in Brooklyn, Flatbush to be precise, and now I work in Lakewood, even sleeping in Lakewood most of the week. <br /><br />My customers all say the same thing: "It's hard to beleive you're a 'Brooklyn guy'".<br />What do you mean? <br />"Well., you're too nice to be a real Brooklyn guy. Did you learn out of town for a few years? In Baltimore maybe?"<br /><br />Nope. I'm Brooklyn born and Brooklyn bred. I know who has the best pizza south of Avenue K and who has the cheapest shoes east of Coney Island Avenue and I can make it from the Battery Tunnel to Boro Park in the eighteen minutes before shkia. <br /><br />The difference is, I make a special effort to treat everyone with respect. Not to say I'm not as touh as everyone else- I don't let my guard down- but I treat people with repect. If that comes across as nice? <br />People aren't used to getting respect, I guess.<br /><br />Sorry for the superlong comment.<br /><br />PS I have begun blogging again. Check me out.<br /><br />1/05/2006 2:43 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Gotta run to work...<br /><br />BigMak, thanks for the comments, and that is the very reason I wrote her name. It is there in the open and not a secret.<br /><br />CH, so happy you are back. You bring a very valid point and also like you say it so well and humurously. We definitely need to be on the alert etc. but have to remember to shut it off when it is not needed.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/05/2006 8:52 AM <br /> dave said... <br />You fail to point out the differences between even the non-Jews in the big cities and the ones in the small towns. I suppose the same can be said. It's just the nature of people-the same people will act differently in different settings.<br /><br />1/05/2006 11:08 AM <br /> Josh said... <br />Anon (whichever one questioned Eli's motives) - I think you are way off...<br /><br />Back to the post - You had a lot of great points. One, I think there is definitely a difference in behavior in certain areas of New York relative to out of town. This is not an excuse - a frum person needs to rise above it. Two, I think anyone in a diverse environment is naturally more sensitive to how they are perceived by others. When you are out of your comfort zone, you tend to be more cautious in dealing with others, since you know they won't necessarily dismiss your behavior as unintended. Unfortunately, one of the side affects of a tight-knit frum community is we treat everyone like family, sometimes shortchanging them of the deference they deserve. Third, there is no excuse for guys/girls to withold due courtesy out of frumkeit, although the awkwardness is understandable (it's hard to say a simple thank you when you are four shades of purple). <br /><br />But the most searing point you brought across, Eli, was the simple admission, "I am in a very emotionally intense period of life". That one line said as much as your entire post.<br /><br />1/05/2006 11:46 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Jews are just as stupid, if not stupider, than non-Jews.<br /><br />End of story. Don't make excuses for them. Our system has failed, we're all a bunch of jerks.<br /><br />More Torah learning now than at any point in history, and we're failures. Either the system is broken, or we're really, really stupid.<br /><br />1/05/2006 12:40 PM <br /> The Chainik Hocker said... <br />Okay, fine, but you can't just say "We're stupid" and leave it at that. If you think the system is broken, you can't just hoplessly accept it.<br /><br />Get off the internet and fix the system.<br /><br />1/05/2006 1:00 PM <br /> flatbshyid said... <br />It always bothers me as I am driving on a freezing/rainy/snowy day and I see frum girls/women waiting for a bus what am I suppossed to do? I am married and I hope they would realize I just want to offer a ride should I or shoudn't I? Would you Elisheve accept I ride if it was offered? I have had eldery frum ladies ask for rides. I always ask boys or men and they always accept and most times are suprised that I even stopped to offer. Why don't more people do this?<br /><br />1/05/2006 1:40 PM <br /> The Chainik Hocker said... <br />Because we all learned b'feirush in the slasher films of the sixties and seventies that all hitchhikers are evil psychopathic lunatics who love nothing more than to murder random motorists. So if you see someone waiting for the B11 in the snow, and he's wearing a hockey mask and carrying a chainsaw, DO NOT stop to pick him up unless he is willing to chip in for gas. <br /><br />This public service announcement has been brought to you by the Frummie Blogger Association in conjunction with the BMG and this blog. The BMG reminds you that using the internet is assur and wil get you cheiremized. Visit R' Mattisyahu Solomon's blog for more details.<br /><br />1/05/2006 1:56 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />I am doing something about it. I dont live in those makomos hatumah that encourage people to act like jerks.<br /><br />flatbshyid, if you ever leave a girl stranded in the rain because you are too "frum," mark my words, you will burn in hell for eternity. On a sunny day, no big deal.<br /><br />1/05/2006 2:52 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />R. Solomon has a blog?<br /><br />1/05/2006 2:53 PM <br /> The Chainik Hocker said... <br />He should.<br /><br />I'll bet he could assur things twice as fast that way.<br /><br />Do really think he doesn't have internet access?<br /><br />1/05/2006 2:58 PM <br /> fltbshyid said... <br />To anon<br /><br />She is not stranded just waiting for the bus. Do you stop everytime you see a frum yid waiting for a bus? It seems yes so tell me when you always stop for a frum girl/women do they accept and come in ? <br /><br />Can we stop with this internet thing obviously everyone disagrees with the lakewood ban so enough of it, get a life and talk about the post.<br /><br />1/05/2006 3:08 PM <br /> The Chainik Hocker said... <br />Okay. Speaking of rudeness in the Jewish community, I think it was very rude of you to point out that jokes about the internet ban is old news.<br /><br />:P<br /><br />1/05/2006 3:17 PM <br /> eli said... <br />Ok, wonderful . This is definitely excellent award winning writing.. The last few posts were about subjects that precluded me from commenting, as it would be too awkward and possiblly ossur to join in the discussion..<br /><br />Without a doubt, there is a very fine line between flirting and inappropriate behavior and hostile antisocial behavior.<br /><br />Maybe I am just too sensitive. But quite often I will be walking in Lakewood on Shabbos. A lady passes me and I say Good Shabbos, because in Monsey and numerous other places I have been to everyone does. When she smiles and says Good Shabbos back it really picks me up. (I assure you there is nothing sensual about, ESPECIALLY IF ITS A MARRIED LADY). But often, not only dont they respond, but they look at you like you are a homeless guy on the subway. It is such a painful, dejecting feeling. You just feel like a worthless subhuman thing all day. Now, maybe , emphasis MAYBE a young single girl is protecting herself in some misguided way. But a married lady in her 30s with children, I refuse to believe that the Torah wants one Yid to hurt another Yid in such an insensitive way. <br />And if she sincerely is that in tune with Tznius, maybe she took take "Kol Ha Cvoda Shel Bas Melech" a lil more seriously and not be on the street in the first place. And I wont even mention that 90% of the time what they wearing may fulfill the barest requirements of Halacha, but absolutely, positively doesn't Pas for someone who is so attuned to Tznius that they need to hurt someone like that..<br /><br />The Gamarra discusses the case of the Chosid Shoteh who refuses to save a drowning lady because of Negia. I believe this case, you are not merely refraining from saving someone from drowning, you are throwing them in the water!!<br /><br />A number of years ago I discussed this very point with Reb Ahron Kreiser ZT"L, and he told me "Mit Frumkeit Mir Ken Horiv Machen Der Velt", (with frumkeit you can destroy the world).<br /><br />I hope you continue writing, Elisheva, as you are very talented and articulate..<br /><br />1/05/2006 3:31 PM <br /> Elster said... <br />One nitpick before I comment:<br /><br />Elisheva, you really need to cut the "slang" out of your post in your final read through. it's ok for comments, but it should come out of your final work. In fact, with the exception of your opening paragraph, you actually did a decent job of this.<br /><br />As for your post: The fact is, this isn't a Boro Park/Lakewood problem. You find jewish people everywhere in NY/NJ who show a lack of courtesy and middos in the way they act. BUT, the same can be said for New Yorkers in general who have a bad reputation as being gruff and impolite.<br /><br />As I often point out, this is not a jewish thing, its an upbringing thing. To say thank you or to say good shabbos is not about a level of frumkiet, that's patently absurd. Does anyone really think that from the generation which received the torah up until the shtetle developed in Europe, this kind of stuff went on? Being overfrum is a fairly new phenomenon, maybe 200 years. But decency and frumkeit shouold never be mutually exclusive. To have answered the guy on line in the store in BP would have been polite. Obviously flirting with him would have been, from certain points of view, incorrect. <br /><br />But the decency gene being defective is not a by product of the frum community - it is a by-product more of a successful and wealthy community who thinks it's better than everyone else. Who thinks they are more important. Believe me, it happens in the 5 town and Queens and Teaneck just as much.<br /><br />1/05/2006 3:45 PM <br /> flatbshyid said... <br />Eli<br /><br />R' Ahron Kreiser zt'l that was a yid I used to learn in the alumni minyan (the building next to the irvington, what it is now I have no idea) 18 years ago and speak to him every day. How I miss those days.<br /><br />1/05/2006 3:51 PM <br /> Gavi said... <br />I will reiterate what has been said before: just because many Jews do so, it may not necessarily be "frum." And conversely, just because many Jews, even religious ones, do not do something, does not mean that it is necessarily "goyish." I think that people often forget to check the Shulchan Aruch and later authorities, or ask a posek, to see what the halacha actually is in a given case. (Try it - I guarantee you that in many instances, you will be surprised how out of touch our communities can be with what is actually correct!)<br /><br />I remember in yeshiva the discussion of greeting members of the opposite gender came up, and our rebbi (Rav Avishai David) said that he once saw a boy in his community refuse to respond to a girl. He went over to the boy and asked him something along the lines of "Tell me, where in the Shulchan Aruch does it permit one to not display proper middos?"<br /><br />As well, cf. the story in the book "All for the Boss" where Mrs. Herman is telling Rav Boruch Ber Leibowitz about a disturbing dream that she had, and Rav Boruch Ber made it clear by his body language that he was paying attention to her every word...<br /><br />Finally - a belated response to an earlier post about "intimate discussions." Rav Shlomo Wolbe is pretty clear in his Ma'amarei Hadracha Lechatannim that such things should remain between husband and wife (pp. 13-14) - or at least that's the way I understand him.<br /><br />1/05/2006 5:20 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />ive been reading ur blog- and comments for a while- and love the way you blog.<br />about middos- ppl defintly have to learn how to act correctly- when in a store how not to be a jerk etc.. some ppl will cut in front of you- blurt out their order when ur by bagel nosh etc.. ppl have to learn to deal with other people- belive it or not. not everyguy in lakewood is a cave men. we learn, we party, and yes we do behave!!! when im driving i will go out of my way to give a hitch to a lakewood kollel guy shleping his 2 kids 10 blocks to the babysitter, even if its out of the way-- and many others would do the same also... and yes guys in lakewood DO end up getting normal jobs. some become accountants, others get into real estate, and some lakewooders become lawyers... and trust me with 10 yrs of learning under their belts they are good at it.<br />yes in lakewood they should stress midos, but they are busy with a milliion and one other things to be able to talk tachlis... they have to decide to cancel a auction cause its not al pe the ruach of the yeshiva etc....<br />but anyways- lakewood is a great place. and kudos for them, all jews are great...<br />and yes if you see someone say good shabbos even if its a girl or married lady, its a nice thing to do. <br />when i was in boro park for shabbos i said good shabbos to evryone and almost had the shomrim running after me- but if you do what your gut feelings tells u to do- u are right- no questions there.<br /><br />good shabbos everyone- and iyh all the bloggers and everyone else should find their right shiduchim asap... (it'll help the shidduch crissis, lol)<br /><br />1/05/2006 11:27 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Wow! Like where do I start? I am not as organized as SemGirl in the way she responds to so many comments, so here are my thoughts at random.<br /><br />Elster, I am like so glad you noticed! Cause first I was like almost in tears about what you wrote after I tried so hard this time to do just what you said in my final read through. I also I guess have that other voice telling me, this is you, and it's how you write and besides some guys say it's cute (I will admit it is a big nisayon for me when people will say I am cute to tune that out. I am human.). But I did try to take out most of my teen-talk from the more serious parts.<br /><br />A few of you brought up that this is a city thing and not a frum thing. I mentioned that I also thought of that in my post. But even though it might be because we are city people (I guess lakewood is becoming a city, besides half the crowd here grew up in Brooklyn) and out-of-towners don't act this way regardless of religion or frumkeit, still the problem is that we, as frum people, should work to overcome it, and instead we are excusing it that goyish things are silly anyway, or who cares for silly out-of-town ettiquette. My point was that that is wrong, and when it's midos or common sense we should care.<br /><br />Josh, great points as usual, especially about being close-knit makes it like family which tends to have a downside too. I was hoping you'd see that I posted even though you said something about turning something off, I wasn't sure what you meant. I always value your opinions. And I guess you are so right about revealing lots in that sentence, though I hope the rest of my post was worthy on its own.<br /><br />FY and Eli brought up the whole giving-a-ride-saying-Gut-Shabbos thing. Okay, so for a girl's perspective. It really depends alot on the particular circumstances. Like on Moochy's post about pointing out to a girl that her slip is showing. From some guys it can be a real off comment, but like if he is obviously older, or detached, or like a fatherly type like he would feel for his daughter in this situation, it is different.<br /><br />Personally, as a single girl, I probably would turn down a ride on an average case from a guy. Again, certain cases would be different. But like still there is nothing wrong with offering. At worse I'll smile, say thanks, it's alright. I would never ignore the guy, unless he is leering at me, you know what I mean.<br /><br />As far as Gut Shabbos I don't say it to boys and I don't expect it from them. But if a guy said it to me, like he is not the typical BP/Lakewood/heimish guy and says Good Shabbos, I would totally smile back and say Gut Shabbos. People have to learn the difference between like being normal frum where you don't initiate things for no reason with the opposite sex and being mentchlich that if someone greeted you, or gave you something, or asked you something, you answer like a mentch. Again, all this is unless he seems to try to be flirting. (Then it depends if he is hot and if I am in a weak moment, but ideally I would ignore him then, lol.)<br /><br />BTW Eli about your married lady comment, it doesn't seem from reading loads of comments on blogs that guys have their hots turned off just because a lady is married. And I can tell you I see guys staring when I am with married freinds too.<br /><br />Gavi, I agree with some of your points alot, but like disagree with some. I don't think everything has to be just halacha. There is that whole Ramban about being a naval birshus haTorah. There is a spirit of Yiddishkeit which is healthy especially in today's crazy world. But again obviously we can't go overboard and must know the limits. I think that like everyone these days just go to all the extremes. Like either believe all guys and girls should always greet each other cause just doing that is not assur, or like you just totally ignore the opposite sex.<br /><br />It's funny you mention Rabbi David. I know some girls from his sem, and even met his daughter-in-law. She is so nice and he sounds like a real talmid chochom but normal. I like what he said, and also about that story in All For The Boss.<br /><br />BMG B, was that you in Bagle Nosh? I didn't mean to cut ahead of you. Lol! Seriously, you have a cute attitide.<br /><br />Hope this covered everyone. I have to go now, but will reread the comments later.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/06/2006 12:36 AM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />elisheva:<br />thanks for the compliment- I knew it was a out of towner that cut before me :) jk.<br />anyways there should be shiurim in lkwd teaching everyone the proper etiquite (did I spell it right?) how to drive down clifton and forest, speaking on a cell phone while passing a bottle to ur baby and not hitting all the guys walking to yeshiva. its so sad when I see an ambulance on the corner of 7th and forest working on someone on the floor... it doesn't have to be like that..<br />on to another note "cute" that's usually something that is written about a 5 yr old boy or a girl till she gets married. I am a 'guy' and I'm 23 so cute doesn't really describe me, if u want a full description of me ill some how get it over to u. just give a shout out that u want it... y would u want it anyways, ur dating now.<br />but yeh midos midos midos... We all have to practice and do it right...<br />everyone remember to say thanks to the cashier by the grocery store, tell her she does a great job, and watch her smile, its free so why not (we are all jewish and would do anything that free, isn't that right)<br />gtg so have a good one everyone, and rember smile, u can make the world a good and better place.<br /><br />1/06/2006 1:55 AM <br /> Elster said... <br />Sorry if I upset you, though. it was meant as constructive criticism, not an attack. And as I have bwritten many times in many comments, it's really your work and you should write however you so choose, regardless of what idiots like me think.<br />Have a good shabbos./<br /><br />1/06/2006 9:46 AM <br /> serene said... <br />I recently found your blog and started reading it... Finally someone who is my age, and frum. Wow I love the way you are so open with your feelings...Thanks.<br /><br />1/06/2006 9:57 AM <br /> aaron said... <br />Hey, Anonymous, where do you live in your mokom kadosh, so all of us who live in mokom tumos can come make aliyah 3 times a year to bow down to you? What an attitude you have.<br /><br />1/06/2006 1:13 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />aaron:<br />whats your problem exactly?<br /><br />1/06/2006 1:42 PM <br /> eli said... <br />BMG bochur, you sound like a nice guy. In some of youyr earlier posts, I thought O, no another troll. So I owe you an apology.<br /><br />Elisheva, Ok I will admit that I am not a moloch. Of course if a married lady is very attractive I will look at her, hopefully not in an obviously improper way. <br /><br />But, I am not going to flirt with her, especially in front of small children, Cmon..<br /><br />You just more more Znus, when you overly obsess about these matters. In Baltimore, everyone says G Shabbos to each other, and quite often there is mixed seating by a Kiddush or Simcha. Yet, I can tell you from firsthand experience that you don't anywhere the amt of stories of bad stuff going on, like you do in Monroe, Skver , Willy and other deep woods places. <br /><br />Lakewood really should be going in the direction of being normal, that was R Ahron's mehalach, rather then trying to compete with the "lunatics have taken over the asylum" model of some communities..<br /><br />1/06/2006 2:20 PM <br /> eli said... <br />BMG bochur, you sound like a nice guy. In some of youyr earlier posts, I thought O, no another troll. So I owe you an apology.<br /><br />Elisheva, Ok I will admit that I am not a moloch. Of course if a married lady is very attractive I will look at her, hopefully not in an obviously improper way. <br /><br />But, I am not going to flirt with her, especially in front of small children, Cmon..<br /><br />You just encourage more Znus, when you overly obsess about these matters. In Baltimore, everyone says G Shabbos to each other, and quite often there is mixed seating by a Kiddush or Simcha. Yet, I can tell you from firsthand experience that you don't anywhere the amt of stories of bad stuff going on, like you do in Monroe, Skver , Willy and other deep woods places. <br /><br />Lakewood really should be going in the direction of being normal, that was R Ahron's mehalach, rather then trying to compete with the "lunatics have taken over the asylum" model of some communities..<br /><br />1/06/2006 2:22 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Elster don't worry. I totally didn't take it the wrong way. I wouldn't think you would mean anything in a bad way. I meant that I was frustrated that all my work which i did do to go over my post was wasted, but then I saw that you did notice. Thanx.<br /><br />BMG B, I said you attitude was cute, not you. I would never chas veshalom say that to a 23 year-old guy to his face (though actually some boys are really cute and we girls secretly like that). Just the way you expressed stuff. <br /><br />Eli, good points. We do need to try to be more normal.<br /><br />Serene, hi!<br /><br />Gut Shabbos everyone.<br /><br />1/06/2006 3:07 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />elisheva (girlz first, lol) ok i understood taht i was just playing on ur words-- but thanks<br /><br />eli:<br />u never insulted me dont worry:)<br /><br />gotta go<br />good shabbos<br /><br />1/06/2006 4:35 PM <br /> David_on_the_Lake said... <br />Welcome back...<br />I think that it's a cultural thing..<br />Someone already pointed out that our lack of ettiquette usually runs along the fualt lines of the non-Jewish population. Anyone from Iowa will tell you that people from New York and New Jersey are pushy and rude...<br />Second the more frum a community the less they relate to "America" and its ettiquette. They simply have not left the ship.. <br />It'll take a few generations for us to internalize the whole "American" way of thinking and acting....from holding the door open for someone behind us..to not pushng in front of a line..to waiting patiently with a goofy smile on our face from now until eternity if we are told to do so..<br />Until then..we all have to worry about ourselves and those in our sphere of influence and not try to change the world..<br />BTW Rabbi Reisman has an excellent tape on his topic..analyzing why we don't conform to local ettiquette...it's interesting to hear..<br />(I can lend it to you..if you'd like)<br /><br />Gut Voch<br /><br />1/07/2006 9:23 PM <br /> typically frum said... <br />elisheva stunning as usual. you really practice what you preach. your sesitivity and aidelkeit is obvious in every word you write. im happy to see there are some sensible frummies out there, and in lakewood no less. lots of luck with finding your spouse make sure it's someone who really deserves you!<br /><br />1/08/2006 2:13 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />My pet peeve of Lakewood too. <br />Great Piece Eli7!<br />Its all part of the rush rush rush rat race syndrome. <br />If you had to say GS to every new yorker you'd be there all day.<br />Definitely as Dave said too cultural but not the never left ship thing... for crying out load thats willy and new square, In lakewood they are just transplanted NYers acting like NYers to the dismay of us "out of towners"<br /><br />1/08/2006 5:26 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />it may take a whole day to which everyone in brooklyn a good shabbos. but it defnitly would make the world a better place (and more freindly)<br />maybe they should speak about this at the next chofetz chaim tisah bav event. (im serius)<br />and btw where ever I am I try to wish gs to everyone. in israel I walked doen malchai yisroel wishing gs to everyone. they looked at me like I was crazy and didn't answer (oh some crazy american) but I did what I think is right so who cares about them?<br />the only ppl I will not wish gs to is girls that are unmarried (im not a pervert) and from the ages of about 15 yrs old till my age, unless they are there with their parents, otherwise they think that yippie, a guys intrested in them. <br />sometimes if the girls are modern, like teaneck or 5 towns type I will say gs, cause they expect it, and don't take it like I'm trying to flirt with them, only like I'm being a nice gent.<br /><br />gs everyone!<br />ok have a great day.<br /><br />I can't log in now. but I'm BMGBOCHUR<br /><br />1/08/2006 8:15 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />David,<br />Which Rabbi Reisman shiur (ie which tape #) are you talking about?<br /><br />1/09/2006 7:17 PM <br /> David_on_the_Lake said... <br />anon..<br />It's entitled<br />"Common courtesy & the religious jew"<br />Melachim I 2:20 Tape #15<br /><br />1/09/2006 10:20 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />Don't have that one but I'll be sure to check it out, thanks!<br /><br />1/09/2006 10:33 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />wowee, elisheva! Great post, I have been out of the picture a while and I came back to a very well written composition.<br />I agree with you about most of the things you have written. But keep in mind that people really want to be mentchen, but you never know what is going on in their day. I can't really talk because I don't live in Lakewood or even the N.Y. area. I am an "out-of-towner" but even here, not everyone says good shabbos but I really think it is done out of tzniyus. I just have a little funny thing about that - My mom and I were walking somewhere on Shabbos and we walked by a man. My mother called out good shabbos and he just walked past. I told my mom - turn around, i bet you he is taking a look and lo and behold! What do you know? He was staring right back.<br />Ok, i am not trying to make fun of this man. we all have our taivos and he passed the nisayon of not looking at us directly but his yetzer horo got the best of him at the last moment. <br />I do think though, that manners and etiquette do need to be worked on by the greater frum and yeshivish population but the basics are there. <br />What also is a big problem these days is the lack of derech eretz that young kids in schools have these days. Goyim are treated like trash - i know that this is to safeguard their precious neshamos but i mean - my niece asked me why i work in an office with other goyim and if i am going to become a goy too - puhh leese<br />i never would take a ride from a man unless it was a relative or my friend's father or someone i knew well enough. I would not either offer rides to guys. However, on occasions when my brother or my mom were with me, i have offered rides to bochurim standing in a rain or snow storm and they have greatfully accepted. don't worry,, i will give the occasional female a ride too:-). I feel honored when someone accepts a ride from me. I feel like i am passing on the favour that has been done for me numerous times.<br />one more thing, let us not forget all the chesed organizations and the gemachs that are operating in lakewood. I have heard so many amazing stories! When i hear about the chair gemach and the crib gemach and this and that one, i personally feel honored to be part of am yisroel. <br />sorry for boring y'all, have a good night<br /><br />1/10/2006 10:12 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />ms. shtark:<br />u didn't bore us at all. its a good insight on the matter.<br />I do hear where u are comming from, what really gets weird is when you are in the mall, and see a girl, pretty, cute, whatever and u look at her, not stare a fast glance after u pass each other (going oppisite directions) don't say anything cause its not proper and then both of us turn around- kinda like a second peek- it gets weird, both blush for a second, and then move on.... I think the same way a guy is curious about a girl, the girl is curious about the same, but obviusly not as much, as guys go more for looks, then does a girl go for a guys look.<br /><br />am I wrong? maybe... I wanna hear back.P<br /><br />1/10/2006 11:50 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />TF, thanx for the nice words. And Limey, you too.<br /><br />Ms. Stark, I am so glad you commented. You raise alot of very good points. Perhaps I didn't stress all the chessed and stuff that we all take so much for granted. Thank you for reminding us all.<br /><br />I do think that this like makes my point stronger. Because it shows that a lot of things are not a lack of feeling for chessed because we are city ppl or whatever, because look at all the chessed we do that other city people don't dream of. So it seems that sometimes we don't act right out of a misplaced sense that it is not "yeshivish" to act so "American". And what I am saying is that sometimes that may be right, but sometimes we are mistaken, so we really should think it through better.<br /><br />That story with your mother puts it so well the whole thing with being all frum and then staring! Like I said I don't greet bachurim or men generaly either, but to not say back to a lady who greeted you and then to stare... ( I just wonder if he was staring at you or your mom? lol)<br /><br />BMG B, that mall situation definitely sounds uncomfortable, but I am not one of those girls that stare like that. I won't say I won't check out a cute guy, but not in that way. Only if I am somewhere and he is somewhere in my vision and I will have the desire to check out that gorgeous looking bachur. I don't turn to look at a guy if I passed him. Either you greet him, or you just comtinue on your way. That looking back, as far as I know, is usually a bachur type of thing. Some guys just have to learn not to be so overt. It isn't classy.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/11/2006 1:09 AM <br /> Lvnsm27 said... <br />wow you're back. <br /><br />Anyway, yeah middos is deffinately something that we should all keep in mind.<br /><br />1/11/2006 3:10 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Readers, I love you all (well, most) but I am trying to keep the comments clean and mature. Thank You.<br /><br />The person who's comment I erased knows what I mean. I hate doing it, but there is a difference between what we do here and what others are trying to do.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/11/2006 9:19 AM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />ok here goes. <br />Elisheva, you are 100% right that ppl. are trying to stay yeshivish and erring in the process. Really everyone means for the best. It is a geder that may be necessary in certain circumstances but may be hurtful in others. We want to stay sheltered but sometimes we have to lift our heads out of the stand.<br />ok, bmg-b, I am not sure what you are asking but I think what you mean is that looks are more imp. to the guy than the boy. You are probably right but looks can sometimes turn off the girl too. if he looks like a slob and he comes into the date after a good smoke without even bothering to pop in a mint, that will make a really bad impression. i think girls look more for warmth and charisma and comfort level but i happen to know that boys do look for that too. i one time had a guy tell me on a date: "i feel bad for girls who are fat or ugly because then they just don't have a chance" i don't know what he was trying to get across but i dumped him like a hot potato (don't worry it was done a little nicer than that) i don't know, maybe he was commiserating me and maybe he was complimenting me in some demented way. <br />but i think that if a guy is not the best looking ( i don't say ugly) but he has so much personality and he is so fascinating and sweet, the girl would theoretically still be interested.<br />i don't usually turn around to look at a boy once he passes but i will notice if a guy is good looking or not. hey, i am human!<br /><br />1/11/2006 1:43 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />sorry i meant lift your head out of the sand (not stand) and that looks are more important to the guy than the girl (not boy)i was typing so fast that i wasnt concentrating<br /><br />1/11/2006 1:44 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />ms shtark: yes looks plays a big part when a guys going out with a girl, but even a girl if she's not the prettiest, if she has a great personality guys will like her.<br />and yes I know girls like good looking guys (everyone likes me!:)) but even if a guys not tall dark and handsome, if he has a great personality, as u wrote the girls will like him.<br />btw tall dark and handsome is a plus, but that's not the only thing about a guy, he has to be nice also...<br /><br />elisheva: don't know if u care, but I finaly did start a blog. at: lifeinbmg.blogspot.com<br /><br />1/11/2006 2:45 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />ms shtark: yes looks plays a big part when a guys going out with a girl, but even a girl if she's not the prettiest, if she has a great personality guys will like her.<br />and yes I know girls like good looking guys (everyone likes me!:)) but even if a guys not tall dark and handsome, if he has a great personality, as u wrote the girls will like him.<br />btw tall dark and handsome is a plus, but that's not the only thing about a guy, he has to be nice also...<br /><br />elisheva: don't know if u care, but I finaly did start a blog. at: lifeinbmg.blogspot.com<br /><br />1/11/2006 2:46 PM <br /> The Rabbi's Kid said... <br />the frum world focuses wayyy too much on the bein adam lamakom and too little on the bein adam lechavero<br /><br />as for the way goyim are portrayed, don't get me started<br /><br />1/11/2006 7:24 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />TRK .. couldnt agree with you more<br /><br />BMGB "everyone likes me!:))" and you are so modest,lol..<br /><br />Elish he was obvioulsy staring at Ms Shtark, she's just being shy..and modest, BMGB, you can take a page from her book. And thanks for deleting that DM creep..<br /><br />1/11/2006 7:53 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />oh yes, my modesty is awesome. I'm a anov, what should I say.....<br />I guess its more of a subconsonence feeling that someone is looking at someone- yes ppl do look at other ppl, although one has to usually control ones self not to, shmiras aynim, and especialy when it may come to insult a girl or whoever by looking at them, btw I'm not talking about steering at someone, that is plain out rude- even if staring at another guy<br /><br />1/11/2006 8:04 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />Like hello, I cannot count on my fingers any more how many guys i have dated and i can only count one tall dark and handsome guy (in my opinion) and (semgirl u know this) he was a jerk!! of course we've gotta look for more in a guy than just looks. they just aren't there anymore!!<br /><br />1/11/2006 10:54 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />I was just kidding about the tall dark and handsome thing-;-)<br />every guy wants a nice girl and every girl a nice guy- the rbsha set this world that each girl gets a guy etc. and one can only hope and pray, that he gets what he wants, whatever it might be. hopefully what they pray for should be something good. like a good personality, and don't only go for external things....<br /><br />1/11/2006 11:42 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />TRK, I second the motion. Very well put.<br /><br />About the other thing, looks like matter for sure, but only as part of a whole. A guy who has personality, zest of life, intelligence, middos, all that attracts you to him to, almost in a physical way even. So if he looks alright (no, we can't all get the tall, dark, and handsome, though maybe...) then you can still be totally attracted to him even up to developing a huge crush if he has the other qualities.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/12/2006 12:59 AM <br /> Datingmaster, Jerusalem said... <br />just to say welcome back<br />you rock!<br /><br />1/12/2006 3:49 AM <br /> AMSHINOVER said... <br />i just spent the day in a office in Howell and you lakewood girls are strange, what would happen if you refered to me by my 1st name? when 1 of you asked for mr.amshinover i thought you meant my father.<br /><br />1/12/2006 12:52 PM <br /> Scraps said... <br />My family and I have noticed for years that natives of the NY-metro area are distinctly lacking in courtesy. (We're from the far end of nowhere, for the record.) For instance, numerous times when we were going somewhere with a wheelchair-bound relative and had doors rudely slammed in our face while entering and exiting shops and restaurants, while in other places people did the natural mentchlich thing and held the door open. Not to say that there aren't any decent, polite people in the NY area, but doesn't it say something that people there assume you're from out of town if you have a shred of common decency?!<br /><br />1/12/2006 2:16 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />scraps:<br />unforunateley that is the way life is. there are people who wanna do good, but the soceity that they are in corrupts them. a little child is born, doesn't know anything, and he learns from what he sees. <br />we live in a tough world that in order to move foward one has to show who is the boss, when one acts that way u loose all respect for others, and yes u won't hold a door open for a wheelchair.<br />(btw I hold a door open even if the person is perfectly healthy and if a person is in a wheel chair or had crouches I will run ahead and and open the door and wait a minute till he gets there. u should then see his face, how happy they are that someone helped them and treated them nicely)<br />I am a new yorker and I still act respectful (i think I do at least)<br />I learnt it from a date a rabbi in brooklyn gave about 7 yrs ago. the rabbi is a public speaker and said that he was by a bris in lakewood, and he saw someone hesitating to come over, finaly after 20 mins the guy went over and said I would like to thank u for all ur shiurim etc, if gives me much chizuk- the rov asked why did u hesitate? he answered: "such a person like u doesn't need my little thanks- ur such a great man" to what the rov answered ur so wrong- (in a nice way) everyone needs thanks- even me!!!<br />from that I started always saying thanks (some ppl think I'm nuts) and with that comes being a mentch- otherwise what is everything all worth...<br /><br />1/12/2006 2:37 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />I'm not sure what you mean, Amshinover, but from what you say it seems what you expect is more weird than you think of lakewood girls. <br /><br />I totally agree that some Lakewood girls are like way too busy with fake stuff and not the real yiddishket, but it is simple manners that you don't address a strange person, male or female, by their first name. A girl doesn't call her accountant Chaim, or Bob or whatever, and you don't walk into the office of any business and tell the guy, oh Moish or Steve, how are you? You refer to anyone you don't know on a personal level and as a contemporary as Mr. So and So or Mrs. So and So. This is elementary respect. <br /><br />Pity that people are so into looking to find fault that they forget this. Or is it that we have zero respect left for anything today?<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/12/2006 5:05 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Or is it that some guys are so desperate to get a pretty girls attention, that they will try any ruse. It depends I wasn't in that office, Mr. A., so I don't know.<br /><br />I have seen both sides of the coin. In some places like my neighbor's house or my father's friends, to say, Rabbi Shwartz is so phony, why not just wear a sweatshirt that says I AM VERY FRUM..<br /><br />On the other hand, in a pizza shop, or the library bochurim in their 20s, say hi Ruchy, and you know that they are totally flirting..<br /><br />1/12/2006 8:29 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />amshinover:<br />semgirl is so right. when i go into an office and a frum girl calls me by my first name i am taken back. Am i so close to her? Do i know her, ok calling me Mr. so and so, sounds a bit weird, but its better then the other way.<br /><br />1/12/2006 11:56 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />wow, i didn't know that the lakewood library is such a hangout! is that the one on lexington or are there a few? <br />I also think that addressing ppl by their first name is a little bit more touchy in Lakewood and in Flatbush because practically everyone you deal with is frum there. I deal with irreligious ppl at work and lots of times, I do call them by their first names without having met them before because we want the person to feel comfortable and to make it less stiff. However, if the person is older or very formal themselves or frum, I will address them by mr/miss. you have to fit the situation. <br />also a bunch of my mom's friends keep telling me to call them tova or rena or sharon but i feel it is a lack of respect so i don't.<br /><br />1/13/2006 12:26 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Funny about the parent's friends. I see that it depends alot on different crowds. Cause SemGirl thought it would be so weird or acting extra frum to call her father's friends Mr. Whatever, and Ms. Stark feels uncomfortble calling her mother's friend's by their first names.<br /><br />I am mostly with Ms. Stark on this. I would never think of calling my father's friends by their names. my mothers friends though, some I call Mrs. Whatever, but other real close friends, or from way back, I grew up with and call them by their first names.<br /><br />So I guess alot is simply different crowds. But still i think that like a regular frum man that a girl meets for the first time you just don't call him by his first name, and not because of frumkeit. because I don't think it is expected and therefore it is not respectful or will look flirty. <br /><br />Sorry Amsh, if you were looking for them to flirt. Sometimes we lose control and do. I guess you weren't one of those times. Maybe next time...<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/13/2006 1:01 AM <br /> shy said... <br />I Love this line: LOLOLOLOL!!!!<br /><br />My brothers always tease me about how I still sign my name using a heart to dot the “i”. Lately the complaint became more frum. It is goyish to be busy with hearts and stuff. <br /><br />Great Blog! Great Post! Great Writer! Great to know there are more out there like me!<br /><br />1/13/2006 9:38 AM <br /> AMSHINOVER said... <br />or Steve? how'd ya know ;)<br />i worked in many offices and for enough years to know a] using a 1st name is not flirtatious<br />b]it is strange to communicate with someone in that manner c]not halachaicaly required so why add fake regulations to an already complicated set of legalities?<br /><br />1/13/2006 1:31 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />amshinover, as I mentioned before, I agree with you. This works beautifully in a very professional setting but a secular one. When dealing with frum people or older people, or just more "formal" ones, (the last two categories not necessarily frum) they may take offense by calling them Noel (a person I now in real life who our office only calls by his surname). you are right, it is definitely not flirtatios but not warranted everywhere. have a good shabbos.<br /><br />1/13/2006 2:27 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />not fair, semgirl has a shiur going on and noone is posting by you.<br />i guess everyone is at the shiur.<br /><br />1/14/2006 11:30 PM <br /> eli said... <br />Good morning Elisheva, my love. Will we be graced by your beautiful presence today..<br /><br />1/15/2006 10:08 AM <br /> FrumSingleGuy said... <br />I posted again and would love to hear your thoughts...<br /><br />1/15/2006 7:30 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />thanks for putting me on your lists of blogs... I apreciate it.<br />I guess that means I'm moving a step up in life!!!! and lots of publicity<br /><br />1/16/2006 12:35 AM <br /> Admirer said... <br />Elisheva, love, you raise great points in your post. Let me tell you why sometimes we have to put our manners on hold that you girls just don't understand.<br />Shabbos I was invited to someone's house for the day seuda and his wife is wearing a robe so tight and fitted that forget about making out the lace, I could make out the things sticking out (trying not to be too prust). She looks like a regular yeshivish girl, speaks to her kids in yiddish/english like her husband (I don't really know him, he sits in my chabura), and had this shaitel that was long, wavy and gorgeous. She is not speaking to me regularly, like all yeshivish people, but every once in a while she asks a question about what I said or makes a comment to me or whatever. She is married, so I am sure she has no intention to flirt and is only being herself and that is how she is. But for a normal bachur, this is killing me. I don't know what these ladies are thinking. And it's not like girls, they are married, so how can they say they don't know about boys. So I either be nice and every exchange will haunt me in my dreams and thoughts and I will get gehenom (which I don't pretend to be a tzaddik, I do a lot), or I try not to talk too much to her to minimze how much I can later fantasize she liked me.<br /><br />1/16/2006 12:51 AM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Admirer.... or Duh..you find another place to eat.. Hers's an idea go to Eizikovitz's Shul. He always has a big seuda in the shul for only bochurim..<br /><br />I B'darchei achrita, rosha hu.. Ata Mavin..<br /><br />1/16/2006 7:34 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />SG- for once you are way off the mark. How is a "normal" bochor to know that a "normal" guy in his chabura has a "hot" wife who dresses in PJ's(yes i think coming to the table in a robe is PJ's) that will turn him on???? You must be assuming that admirer will be turned on by anyone and anything, while that may be true about some boys its not the norm (or am i out of loop) Furthermore although it is "Friday Night" the lady could wear something a little more tzinos in deference to her husband having invited boys from the Yeshiva...<br />However blaming the lack of manners on a beautiful women is idiocy. Be a mentch think with your head not your......<br /><br />1/16/2006 2:54 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />that last part was meant for admirer not SG<br /><br />1/16/2006 2:55 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />I'm ashamed to say, but I think I like know what this guy means. There are some girls that like are from regular yeshivish homes and marry kollel guys and I look how they dress after they got married and I wonder what happened to them. Caue like they dressed way better before. <br /><br />Like you'd think it would get better after marriage, after all they have their husband. Why suddenly parade everything for all to see? Surely this guy should not eat their anymore, but I won't deny in Israel in sem if I was at a house where I knew there was this real gorgeous guy who ate their sometimes I knew I should not go there anymore, but at times I did anyway. We are human.<br /><br />But like I doubt she is trying to tease this guy or anyone. It's just pathetic how girls dress to show off sometimes and not to make themselves feel good. But you can be polite and that's all. Why will ignoring her make you think any less of how she dressed?<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/16/2006 2:56 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Limey2001 .. .. Sorry for the confusion, I meant he shouldnt go back there a second time, obviously.. Like for example, there is a store near my lil brother's school and one of the managers is very friendly and courteos, and so HOT, it bothers me for the rest of the day. <br /><br />Now, even though its very convenient to buy a sandwich and snacks there for my brother and a real nuisance to go to Shoprite or town, I dont shop there anymore.<br />My friends all think that I lost my marbles, but who cares.<br /><br />1/16/2006 3:27 PM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />Eli7, The reason they do that is obvious, as you've discussed in early posts its called "now that i'm out of my mothers power i can dress the way i wanted before marriage" they eventually grow out of it. <br />2- It doesn't feel good to turn a guy on??? that part of feeling feminine! I doubt she was showing off...<br /><br />SG-I envy your control, for what its worth i don't think you've lost your marbles<br /><br />1/16/2006 4:21 PM <br /> Scraps said... <br />Personally, I never understood why it was that all of a sudden, once they're married, girls (or guys, for that matter) think they can do whatever they want. For instance, it's considered "okay" (at least in some circles) to talk to members of the opposite sex once one is married, but beforehand-- chas v'shoelaces a girl and boy should talk to each other. Helloooo--the married woman is an eishet ish, she should be MORE assur to talk to once she's married! I just don't get it...<br /><br />1/16/2006 5:03 PM <br /> Single and Frum in the City said... <br />I had a teacher in HS who said she doesn't have married people over at her house-ever, because it's not tzniusdik for her husband-or for her. She's anti-couple socializing. That's not a way to live. But some lines must be drawn so women aren't ho-ing around.<br /><br />1/16/2006 7:53 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Scraps you are either very insulated or very naive. I am not all saying that boys and girls shouldnt even say Good Shabbos to each other or exchange simple courtesy. It just makes you crazier and more hormonally frustrated rather than less. However, the reasoning is that a bochur gets all excited by the littlest, most innocent thing. A simple tell Professor so-and-so Im going to be late for class or can you take notes for me, and they get that smile. The more frum they are, the more excited they get, to the point that the ones that wear a black hat to Chemistry are breathing heavy because of a 'just saw in Algebra class' smile in the hallway.<br /><br />Whereas, a normal married guy, emphasis on 'normal' can talk to you for an hour without any hormonal responses, especially if his wife is available that week.<br /><br />1/16/2006 7:53 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Limey, the first point I am not so sure about and don't remember doing a post on it. I know some of these girls personally and they weren't just dressing for their mothers. I am talking about girls who were just that way and not flirts and suddenly get engaged and married and seem to be influenced by this "I have to show everyone what my husband got" mentality that they like did not have before.<br /><br />Your second point I agree with. Okay, I totally admit we have that big nisayon of having that thrill of knowing we are getting a guy to look/excited. I guess I always think/wish/hope that it would be lesss after marrige, like surely not more. Like then we can use the thrill for our husbands, tease him and it's all for the better, a mitzva, and from seeing all the stuff from frum married men online, it seems that the more we do it can never hurt.<br /><br />So like as a single that nisayon is big because we sometimes feel naughty or horny and want that thrill and have no legitimate way of getting it, but why don't the married ladies focus it on their husbands? Again, I am not giving mussar or judging, and i understand sometimes a guy can be so like "OMG" that he gets us all silly and stuff, but to walk around like you're for sale is beyond me why it's like so accepted by so many in our crowd.<br /><br />Scraps I agree that SemGirl put it well that a amrried lady should flirt less because she is married, but a married person can talk more with the opposite sex probably without it leading to flirting as much as I just explained before, less frustrated hormones i would think.<br /><br />Looking FWG, people go to crazy extremes. Like we have couples in our house for Shabbos and we are pretty yeshivish. They are not here to flirt and we are a family. obviously it is like different if it is two young couples in a very iffy situation. I guess these things depend on the situation, but like to say it is always wrong is like anti-social. And what ever happened to hachnosas orchim? There has to be a time that it is ok.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/16/2006 9:15 PM <br /> Jewboy said... <br />Well, well. This is certainly a controversial issue. I've often taken issue with some people's strict attitude about couple being together. A married friend of mine and his wife almost didn't come to one of my sheva brochos because there were couples coming. They only relented when they were assured the couples would sit separately. I've had many Shabbos meals with couples where the interaction was entirely normal. I think that often there's only a problem if a person makes a problem out of it. Of course, it's entirely different when talking about inviting single guys or girls when members of the opposite sex will be there. I had a few uncomfortable situations as a bochur when I was invited for a meal and it turned out there were attractive, single girls there. However, I feel the couples issue is often blown out of proportion. A married person especially has to be able to interact properly with members of the opposite sex, and should be able to do this without having inappropriate thoughts about someone else's spouse.<br /><br />1/16/2006 9:36 PM <br /> KiddushClubGuy said... <br />Jewboy- you hit the nail on the bead. It only matters if the girl is attractive. If she was an obese dog it wouldn't matter. As a matter of fact your male friend might intentionally stay away. It's like the guy in Blue Fringe singining about "kol isha". He won't listen to here because she might be pretty.<br /><br />1/16/2006 9:54 PM <br /> Pragmatician said... <br />I don't know between who and who, but there's Machloikes whether there's is wisdom to be found by the non-Jews (I.E non Torah based) and one side agrees there is. According to that opinion then, something that could be say goyish, is not necessarily always bad.<br /><br />1/17/2006 7:09 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />7- why not focus on your husband???<br />It's more of a thrill, thrilling your husband is usually 1-easy 2- old hat<br />And its called "playing the field"<br /><br />1/17/2006 9:20 AM <br /> Limey2001 said... <br />ps i was refering to your just being feminine post<br /><br />1/17/2006 9:21 AM <br /> jewishbifemme said... <br />time for a new post<br /><br />1/17/2006 1:37 PM <br /> Scraps said... <br />Hehe...I think that's the first time I've EVER been called insulated or naive. That makes me laugh. (Not a derogatory laugh, just a isn't-that-funny laugh.)<br /><br />I can see your point. I was really thinking of it more from a woman's end of things, to be honest. Married women shouldn't be flirting with other men--married or unmarried--and yet, it's still considered "fine" in a lot of communities for a married woman to conduct herself in a manner that would not have been considered appropriate when she was single. That was more my point, sorry I was unclear.<br /><br />1/17/2006 3:10 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />I hope to comment on the comments soon. Meanwhile I'm sorry if I have to reiterate that though I totally welcome most comments, if you have like ZERO class and ZERO brains to figure out when your comments have no place here and are not wanted, please do not bother checking out this blog.<br /><br />I'm not judging a horny or desperate guy, but please, just a little class.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/17/2006 4:24 PM <br /> live reporting said... <br />i guess it must be me but i was in bklyn & report 1 a bling goy going to the bus with his stick & only 1 yeshivish guy from all the well manard goyim there helpd him & waited untill the correct bus came 2 i was standing in bp trying to hitch a ride a guy stops & took me it was 10 minutes it turns out this guy was going to park were i was standing he lives there, he saw me waiting he gave me the ride 3 2 guys in line friday in the grocary each giving the other the rite of way now thats bp for u<br /><br />1/17/2006 11:03 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />reminds me a story a guy asks his freind for change of a doller the guy checks his change only has 90 cents he says i m so sorry i dont have the guy says oh just how sorry r u is it worth 10 cents,(point being the guy had manners not midos)<br /><br />1/17/2006 11:12 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />This post has been removed by a blog administrator.<br /><br />1/18/2006 10:42 AM <br /> ruhcobGMB said... <br />time 4 a new post. if you want to reach 300 like SG, all u have 2 do is write about underwear, your "boobies" or lesbianism in seminary again. these are the topics that your readers are interested in. not "middos". go back 2 your roots. reread the end of your first ever post!<br /><br />1/18/2006 5:28 PM <br /> Parsha Potpourri said... <br />Sorry ruhcobgmb, but if you're looking for a cheap thrill neither this nor SG's blog is the place for it. I'm sure Google can help you find what you're seeking. <br /><br />Elisheva, it probably doesn't need to be said, but he's not speaking for the rest of your readers who come here for the interesting perspective of a Lakewood girl with a twist - keep up the great work!<br /><br />1/18/2006 6:18 PM <br /> Parsha Potpourri said... <br />And with that I'll take comment 100! Please don't make us wait until this post hits 200. :)<br /><br />1/18/2006 6:20 PM <br /> eli said... <br />ruh-Neb and the rest of you, get a life.. Whatever, Elisheva writes displays her brilliance and talent. And like she said if you have like ZERO class, find another blog<br /><br />1/18/2006 7:05 PM <br /> b.f.k.a.b.m.g.b. said... <br />pucker-up everybody, why are u all kissing up to a 19 year old girl?<br /><br />"displays her brilliance and talent" - puh-leaze! (hey that rhymes with sleaze, how appropo) lets remember that the original idea of this post was to discuss "hush - hush" "under-the-cover-blush" jobs going on in "sem" it turns out that too many man got involved to allow that to happen comfortably. and remember it was her idea that all buchorim are oogle-ing her "boobies" . paints a kind of nice picture. how's THAT for class?<br /><br />1/18/2006 7:15 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Ouch! What has happened here all of a sudden?? First of all like ruhcobGMB backwards is BMG Bachur. i hope it is not one and the same. I truly can't picture that.<br /><br />Thnaks Parsha P and Eli for sticking up for me. Trust me I've gotten like e-mails from real nice boys and from the sickos, so I know there are both types and that he speaks only for himself and is type.<br /><br />I don't remember saying that ALL bachurim are staring at certain parts of me, but if you are trying to imply that lots (or maybe most) don't, like every girl (and lots of guys) reading this will laugh at such an assertion. I never said mt blog was all about the stuff you wish it would be, but I did say I would also talk about that. Things that happen can be discussed, like why do they happen, how bad is it, solutions, etc. Stuff we normally can't discuss.<br /><br />And this post is not about such stuff, partly, yes, because I realized my readership and do have enough class to respect that (sorry if you were hoping I would go on and discuss things more on my mind, you have to behave first and get me to like you before I'd do that). And like even this post which is not about this stuff has over 100 comments already. And Semgirl's last post got over 300 and mostly not about girl stuff, so obviously there are other boys with other things are their minds too besides our bodies. She totally writes better than me, and I don't deny that. Good for her. I will try to write what is on my mind and still respect my readers. <br /><br />Thank you and Shalom<br /><br />1/18/2006 10:31 PM <br /> Chilled &amp; Frum said... <br />All the talk about a married lady being an eishes ish aside, there is no comparison between a married lady flirting and a single girl.<br />I live in Lkwd, I am in BMG but also have a job and am normal not ultra-frum. My wife is pretty, ok? My friends are not blind and we all know they will catch a look. I am normal and some of their wives are pretty nice-looking too, and I will catch a look at them too.<br />You know something? We are all married, and we all know that, so it doesn't go any further because it can't. That is way different than before we were married. If my wife would flirt before we were married it could get pretty touchy. Right now she can push the limits, come on, who is anyone fooling, today's girls are not sweet, shtetl girls, she knows a guy is chapping a look and she can maybe like it and see how far she can take it. I know it, she knows it, we all know it. Who are we trying to fool? Today's BY girls are pure and holy? Are the bochurim pure and holy?<br />But it ends there, so how can you compare the fun of the little flirting with a sigle girl doing it which can go much further? Let's not fool anybody that we are a pure generation. We are not, our minds are full of sex and garbage, so if we are not going overboard, take it easy. I do it now, my friends do it, our wives do it, we all know it, who are we fooling?<br />When we were single? It was a whole different ball game.<br /><br />1/19/2006 1:10 AM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />i don't usually check out this blog, but decided to check it out today for some reason, it must be hashgava protis.<br /><br />CHILLIN: you call yourself frum? what's frum about "chapping" looks at other peoples wives and not being embarrased that your own wife is playing to others.<br />get the hell out of BMG, you obviously don't belong there!<br /><br />"Right now she can push the limits, come on, who is anyone fooling, today's girls are not sweet, shtetl girls, she knows a guy is chapping a look and she can maybe like it and see how far she can take it."<br />you have serious tznius issues on your hand, and heaven help you if you don't realze this.<br /><br />"our minds are full of sex and garbage, so if we are not going overboard, take it easy"<br />take it easy?!? your whole post just went overboard. what ever happend to Busha? you can't be serious about this?<br />if you were single, the differance would be that she is a pnuiya and all all of you machshovos are just problems that can lead to BIG issurim. as apposed to now when she is an Aishes Ish flirting with other married men .<br /><br />"You know something? We are all married, and we all know that, so it doesn't go any further because it can't"<br />because it CAN'T??????? says who?!? obviosly not the torah, or there wouldn't be any issurim with yichud and the like, because "IT" can't go anywere. why don't you talk to all the people who are divorced, or having MAJOR shalom bayis problems because "IT" "WENT" further!!<br />you wrote "and am normal not ultra-frum" i would say that you are far from normal in this regard, and ultra-frum is still a LONG WAY OFF!!!!!!!(try starting with basic-frum)<br />P.S. i hope your wife's "seeing how far she can take it" doesn't go too far one day! and if this is the state of lakewood today- "uch un vey". <br />in closing: you were right about there not being any comparison between single and married woman flirting. you just got the whole thing backwards!!!<br />(single girls- you can keep up the small (flirting) nuances, get it out of your systems, and not be much worse for wear. but married woman- save for flirting for evenings at home, at least that will lead to "BETTER" things not "she'ol tachtis"!!!<br /><br />1/19/2006 12:39 PM <br /> geshmaker said... <br />Oh, and also-<br />"My wife is pretty, ok? My friends are not blind and we all know they will catch a look. "<br />don't flatter yourself, unless she dresses like a total whore, noone is checking her out.<br /><br />1/19/2006 12:59 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />ok I made a return only once. for now and that is to say that the pervert who wrote before with my name backwards is not me... I would never write like that and not even think like that..<br />thanks...<br /><br />not sure when I will surface next so buy till then<br /><br />1/19/2006 1:31 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />semgirl: I'm sorry but after reading the previous posts I don't think that I'm gona be visiting your blog again unless the discussion changes a lot.<br />elisheva I know its your blog, and you can write what you want, and its blog world,and anyone can write what they want, but we are all frum people, can't we use our senses and use clean language?<br />I know that my username isn't owned by me, and anyone can use any name, but for the sake of the guys in bmg, don't make us all look like perverts... <br />the guy ruhcobgmb, I doubt he learns here. as noone I know would ever write like that....<br />sorry if I said anything wrong, but I wrote my true feelings...<br /><br />1/19/2006 1:41 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Okay, gosh, I am reeling and hurt and confused. I am not sure if I am right or wrong here.<br /><br />It's one thing if the pervs come and talk sick, that I can handle, but seeing that BMG B, who I knew to have normal comments also feels that my blog is like too off, and I have heard this before once, I really must wonder if I am not wrong here. <br /><br />So like am I a tzadekes? No way. I never like would even imply that. Do I think about boys, sensual things, marriage, and stuff I won't detail here? Yes I do. And I really think lots of normal teenagers do. (And not just teenagers too). Should everything you think be discussed? I guess not. But like aren't there things that are never talked about as if it doesn't exist, and it's all like a farce?<br /><br />And if I am like really to blame for the kinds of comments people put here, why doesn't it bother the guys on all the blogs where girls hang it all out and worse? Is it only when you turn them down that like suddenly you are a prutza? Cause there totally are guys like that. They try to get you to touch, and worse, and when you turn them down they suddenly tell everyone how you are the most loose girl around. I was never with a guy like that, but i know of such instances.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong. I have no doubts about certain things. That BMG B implies that BMG has no guys like the ones who comment badly here, is just not true. I dated, my friends dated. Yes there are nice guys, and there are guys obsessed with shmutz, girls etc. By obsessed I don't mean interested. All girls are interested in guys and guys in girls. I mean like they have zero control or awareness of where the limits are.<br /><br />So they are around and in all yeshivos, that I know. But am I like making them come here? Is it somehow my fault? Am I much more prust than I thought I was? I didn't think so, but I'd hate to be that and keep being nichshal people. I wish there was someone I could talk to about this, but like obviously being anonymous and stuff it's kinda hard.<br /><br />But I will admit I have to rethink this. Maybe I should just stop. Like I don't need this. I can live like I did before. I just thought it would be cool and nice to be able to discuss tonz of stuff both that you could and can't discuss in other forums. But like maybe I was pushing the limits? I'll have to think about it.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/19/2006 3:01 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />elisheva, I am so sorry if I hurt your feelings, I am writing this practicly crying for having written something that offended another jew.<br />you do have a right to write on your blog whatever you wanna write about, and yes I do like the idea to write about things that can't be talked about in a regular conversation. yes that is the reason I also started a blog, till I decided it was to risky for me to keep it going. it turned into a debate and name calling, and didn't discuss the topics I wanted to, and finaly when it died down and we all made up, I had to disapear.<br />yes elisheva please continue your blog, don't run away the way I did, I had to because someone realized who I was.<br />what you discuss, is such important topics that yes noone else, and no other blogs discuss (ok maybe semgirl a bit).<br />what I didn't like was the way ppl where making comments anonymosly, that are disgusting and I was hoping that you would just delete those comments...<br />yes every guy likes girls, hey we all do wanna get married. but a guy has to know his limits what he can say or write (elisheva I'm sure you know what I mean).<br />yes I'm sure there are a few low lifes in bmg, but I don't classify them as being in the yeshiva. should I classify the lakewood community as a whole city of kids at risk, because there are a few like that no...<br />when I was in mir yerushlayim, my cousin asked me: are you learning in mir (with a laugh) she said I used to hang out with so many mir guys... I answered her, there are people in mir and ppl who learn in mir, I learn there. I think the same can be said about BMG.<br />elisheva, please as a personal request, please continue blogging, all your comments are great, just delete the off the line ones.<br />thanks again. and I'm really sorry ;)<br /><br />sg, I meant semstory not you. and what I meant again was the comments by others not by her.<br /><br />1/19/2006 3:16 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />Elisheva..I wholeheartedly concur with everything BMGB said.. PLEASE dont close your blog, you are my favorite blog of all. I always look forward to it..<br /><br />We'll talk in private, K..<br /><br />1/19/2006 4:30 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />SemStory we all love your blog. Do not close it. I'm sure BMGBOCHUR doesn't want you to close it either.<br />And all other bloggers out there let's all come out and get her to continue.<br /><br />1/19/2006 4:35 PM <br /> t.b.f.k.a.b.m.g.b. said... <br />please don't stop posting!!!!!!!!!!! :P<br />you know when the girls write it i can take it. but when the guys are begging, it's kind of sad. yo guys! if you don't have em yet, go get a pair!<br /><br />1/19/2006 4:51 PM <br /> On The Derech said... <br />Elisheva, <br />I just recently started reading your blog. So recently, in fact, that i hadnt had a chance to comment yet. I definately enjoy your blog and I have lots to comment about. Please stick around to give me that oportunity! (And check out my blog. It's interesting coming from a girl like you who lived the life you couldnt/wouldnt/shouldnt) <br /><br />To comment on this post, I think there are nice people and not nice people in EVERY culture and EVERY community and EVERY religoun. Being jewish doesnt change that, being from Boro Park doesnt change that. There are nice goyim in boro park and mean jews. It all depends on the individual.<br /><br />And although i normaly agree with BMGBochur, i do have an issue with the fact that he comes off as such a frum and ehrliche bachur but at the same time, he's breaking lakewood rules by going online and What is the rule about "talking" to girls online? I'm not sure! <br />That is just my opinion. Not that i want to get rid of him, i enjoy his comments the most!<br /><br />1/19/2006 5:38 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />(i commented some time ago not it seems to have not appeard sorry if it comes up twice,)about marreid women going all out, as a marreid men i would point out 3 things even though it is true the idea of pas bsalo,BUT 1there is still a huge diffrence between a sibgle in the respect that regardless of howmuch he thinks/looks/etc. he is surpreesd & he is pushing it all off for later, while once u get marreid its either u r getting it ALL or u r losing out 2 & also in the begining u r just plotzing from the preivous years & now that your time came u kindof want to just let go & let loose all your held back imaginations 3contrary to what many singles think marreidg is not about bedroom life its just 1 aspect of marreidge now with all other things going on, at times it may not have that easy free pleasure, that goes with flirting & moving on thats all fun so therfore it is that it can still be a nisyon for marreid ppl & couple that with #1 it can xplain y its worse then while they r single<br /><br />1/19/2006 7:00 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />eli7 please don't close your blog. u are doing a great service to the overall klal. however, i also agree with bmgbochur that sicko comments should be erased. keep up the good work!<br /><br />1/19/2006 7:51 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />we miss you<br /><br />1/20/2006 12:17 AM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Had a long night. Thanks for all the nice words. I know people have enjoyed my blog. My point was not that. Maybe I should just be like way more tough on deleting comments but that is like so not me. And also I can't always get on right away, and when I do I see it's like already this whole thing.<br /><br />Okay, have some thoughts, but I hope I will have them like somewhat more in order later.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/20/2006 7:06 AM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />happy to hear... we cant wait<br /><br />1/20/2006 11:50 AM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />How is your day going, Shev? While you are thinking..EMAIL...<br /><br />1/20/2006 12:14 PM <br /> ~ Sarah ~ said... <br />just discovered your blog (along with a few others)... <br />wish i'd thought of having a blog when i was in sem!<br />guess it's not too late now though but it's taken a slightly different direction.<br />i understand things are hectic but really do try keep it up... it's nice to know that there are good people out there trying to spread the message to others of good middos and being a mentch.<br />good luck with everything :)<br /><br />1/21/2006 8:11 AM <br /> Jewboy said... <br />Elisheva,<br />There is no need to close your blog because of some people who say inappropriate things. Nothing you write is inappropriate. If they choose to be indecent, that's their problem and not yours. They win if you stop.<br /><br />1/21/2006 8:41 PM <br /> typically frum said... <br />shevy im waiting...<br /><br />1/22/2006 1:08 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />gosh you lakewooders have a mandate here anyone interested in starting a boro park blog??<br /><br />1/22/2006 1:25 PM <br /> s.f. said... <br />lol from your amount of comments u rposting may we guess that either the"takanos" r affactive or isit the intense peroidin your life intensifying g luck<br /><br />1/23/2006 3:47 PM <br /> Chilled &amp; Frum said... <br />Seems like I got Gesh a little hot under the collar here. Sounds like a guilty conscious to me.<br />First off, Elisheva, it's the sickos with the comments who have a problem, not you. They choose your blog over others because you come across as sweet and nice and a guy who isn't man enough when it comes to a stronger woman, suddenly thinks he can let go when he doesn't feel threatened. I am not saying you aren't a strong woman, just that you give a sweet impression. If you would ignore these guys and keep doing what you like, you will show them how strong you are inside.<br />About Geshmaker's comments. Let's work backwards. "My wife is pretty, ok? My friends are not blind and we all know they will catch a look. "<br />don't flatter yourself, unless she dresses like a total whore, noone is checking her out.<br />Who is living in the world of make believe here? Normal men don't check out women unless they dress to show off? That is so laughable. WHy are there hundreds of sefarim on shmiras einayim if no one looks anyway? Or are they just because of the women who dress badly? Do you really think anyone thinks that because your frum or yeshivish you don't look?<br />you call yourself frum? what's frum about "chapping" looks at other peoples wives and not being embarrased that your own wife is playing to others.<br />get the hell out of BMG, you obviously don't belong there!<br />So someone who looks at ladies isn't frum? Did you ever daven without being michaven the first three brachos? Do you know how bad that is? Are you still frum? Did you ever say lashon hora? Are you still frum? I can go on and on. It's guys like you who mix up what we are supposed to be with trying to pretend that we are all there already and chalila no one yeshivish does any aveiros and especially with machshavos and ladies! Who do you guys think you are fooling? Are you not normal and need a doctor?<br />I never said it is good to flirt or to chap a look or show off. I said the fact you guys are embarrassed to admit that we still do these things even though we are not supposed to. Yes, we do, even guys in BMG. Ask any gadol how many guys in BMG don't chap a look at a lady even if she is not dressed to flirt. It isn't from the gedolim this make-believe-we-are-perfect yiddishkeit, it is krumkeit!<br />So yes, I am normal and I look, my friends are normal and they look, our wives are normal and it can get to them and they push the envelope. is that great? No. But like I said we are no great generation, we ARE filled with garbage and sex, and we do it. Yes, even you.<br />Are there stories about marriages where people went to far? I'm sure ther eare. There are stories for everything. But if you think that more married ladies go too far than single girls, you have no clue what is going on in the real world, and I'm sure Elisheva and Semgirl can confirm this. A married person has way more fright and restraint. People flirt, it's bad, so are lots of aveiros. We have to work on ourselves. I once mistakenly walked in when my wife's friend was nursing her baby. I am a normal human being and I thought about that many, many times since. Does that make me frei? Did I do anything with her? No. Does it make me love my wife less? No. Did it give me what to think about? It sure did. These things happen and we have to work on ourselves. But to pretend I already worked on it and never thought about it once after that is to fool myself which is the worse fooling of all.<br /><br />1/23/2006 4:12 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />c&f<br /><br />Very well said, they dont call it fakewood for nothing. Most ppl men and women are pretending to be melochim in the bain-odom-lmokoms , while completely disregarding bain-odom-lchaveiros..<br /><br />1/23/2006 8:59 PM <br /> Anonymous said... <br />WHERE IS ELI7?<br /><br />1/23/2006 9:03 PM <br /> On The Derech said... <br />i completely agree with C&F, but i think SG is a little off. <br /><br />Lakewood people as a majority dont try to fake you into thinking that they are malachim more than any other people! No normal person will admit their avairos to you! So if BMG guys are chapping a look at you while you walk down the street - while they are going to the 'best' yeshiva in the country, does that make them fakers? no, that makes them normal. <br /><br />I dont publicize my avairos either. and if you meet me, you will probably think i'm a typical good girl. Does that make me a faker if i love gossip or i may wear a skirt that's a lil too short? No. That's what people are all about. And lakewood is no diferent.<br /><br />1/24/2006 9:48 AM <br /> typically frum said... <br />chevreh, check out my new blog:www.ayeshivabochursfantasies.blospot.com. come and enjoy.<br /><br />1/24/2006 4:01 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Gosh, I never seem to get on when I want so I don't know if it's making any difference if I want to continue blogging anyway!<br /><br />Okay, about this thing above, I just commented about it on TFs new blog. It seems Geshmaker commented there too. I would agree with SG and Derech. I think Geshmaker is like way off as far as reality is concerned. Derech is right that people just don't talk about it because it is embarassing, but like some get the wrong message as if it doesn't exist because it's not discussed. It does exist and is normal, but should not be like glorified I think.<br /><br />Okay, about the blog. I did like loads of thinking and talked to someone I respect but had to be so roundabout because I don't think he would ever dream that I have a blog.<br /><br />So what did I come up with? First of all, I don't think when I started my blog I had any idea what it would be. I admit that for me going online was like a naughty thing to do. I was so curious what is out there, and always thought it was just goyish or porn so it wouldn't interest me. Then I stumbled on these like hundreds of frum blogs and I admit we are sometimes so curious and horny and I read tonz of stuff some that I should have and some that I shouldn't have.<br /><br />I also had things I wondered about and figured, hey, here is an anonymous way to see what other frum people think about things I would be way too embarrassed to ever bring up with anyone I knew. Or at least most people. Like, yes there was a crowd in sem and some girls I know here who talk about EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING, but I find it is mostly out of immaturity and I don't necessarily respect what they have to say and there is usually a certain slant to their opinions. I had no idea if it would be different here, but I figured I can try.<br /><br />So okay, the blog maybe had a certain naughty, maybe slightly flirtatious slant because I guess I didn't come on to discuss the serious burning issues of klal yisroel.<br /><br />But I don't think I did it without respect or went too far. Like anyone who is here is not like being exposed to anything shocking, and like nothing I spoke about is really shocking, just stuff we don't usually talk about in public. I didn't like ask anyone to give us a kallah class on my blog.<br /><br />When I first came on, I had lots more time than I ended up having too, and I suddenly realized I sometimes couldn't even come on, and when I did comments were already flying and some maybe that did go too far. At the same time I was pleasantly surprised that there were actually many normal people who commented and also many very smart and caring comments. Yes there were the sick or way off ones too, but it was refreshing to hear a normal view about stuff I wondered about and the girls I knew until now who talked about it weren't as mature about it.<br /><br />So where am I going with all this? I don't even know myself. I guess I realized that there were many male readers, though I originaly envisioned like a cool dormroom chat, I guess there is no mechitza here and I should have realized nothing is stopping men from coming on too. And I admit some have pretty smart and nice things to say also.<br /><br />Also I realized that I do like writing and sharing opinions and there are many girls like me who are confused about more serious issues and maybe we should discuss those and not the silly naughty things we think about. Although I guess as silly as these things are, they are part of life, and I still do think about them and do like to discuss them. Maybe I am just a regular vaiberish yenta. Okay, but that's who I am.<br /><br />About the issue of the comments, this guy I spoke to told me that a girl should not blame herself if a guy gets aroused from her. It is not always her fault, and like it is true that a girls has to be careful because she can sometimes cause it, even if she is perfectly regular a guy can still have nisyonos from her that are not her fault. I guess I can relate like a guy can sometimes be real charming and lay it on, and unless he is a dork who is so transparent, sometimes it can work and make me all giddy and silly. At the same time, sometimes a guy can just be there and have no clue that I even see him, and he is just you know, like that cute or cool look and I'll find my heart racing. So it can be either his fault or not. Like this guy I talk to is totally respectful and a serious but so normal guy and like I have such an embarrassing crush on him, he'd kill me if he knew probably, so it can be not a guy's fault, but also a guy can make it happen. And it seems this is like a way more serious issue by boys.<br /><br />So I asked him how a girl can tell if it is her fault (I admit I stretched the truth, I told him a friend from school mentioned it that a guy was making off comments to her and she didn't think she was making him say it, but she isn't like the biggest neb, but also not a flirt, just a normal, friendly girl). He didn't really want to say about specifics, but he did say that a guy can think a girl thinks of him one way when really she totally doesn't intend to. But then when I mentioned like why would he make comments that would be insensitive and not too nice, he said if a guy is like that, it is surely his problem and not hers. I can't say I totally understand all this myself. I also wasn't really saying what the issue is, but I really trust this alot. So I would think that although I admit I do at times flirt, I think the real disgusting comments that so bothered me and mostly bothered me that people seemed to think maybe I was causing, I think those people who make them have problems and I shouldn't beat myself over them. I will try to be on and delete them when I can.<br /><br />I don't even know why I wrote all this or why this whole thing bothered me so much. But I guess I am not what everyone thinks I am. I am still from a sheltered background and try to be a nice BY girl and on the other hand have that other, curious, daring, naughty side to me so I am confused by some things and I really don't know what I want sometimes. <br /><br />In a way this bothers me too. Like why is it so embarrassing to discuss such things openly? Why do I not feel comfortable enough to discuss this with any one of my teachers, some of who were pretty good. Still I feel like this is just a red line. Or maybe it's just me, and other girls have no such problems opening up to teachers about this. Like even this guy I talk to, is so practical and I think does talk to guys in yeshiva, and he would so understand this, he even writes the cutest and funniest stuff so he would so understand my blog, but I would die before I showed a frum kollel guy my blog. But maybe that is for the best because if there would be no busha, we would do much worse things when these silly impulses strike us and now we have that control. So like in a way, maybe it is good we really don't discuss these things openly, like it's good that we don't totally make it not embarrassing and normal. But still, so where can I? So for me, the blog is still my place to go on about my silly questions or more serious issues.<br /><br />I am so thankful for those who commented positively about my blog. If you don't enjoy it or think I am like rambling imbecillic thoughts, by all means, don't bother with this site.<br /><br />Hope I like got across my feelings, or at least my confusions. I will try to post something soon.<br /><br />Shalom.<br /><br />1/24/2006 6:30 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />wow,<br />wow,<br />and<br />wow,<br /><br />what you just wrote is so true, wow.<br />I'm so happy that you came back, and hope to read your posts and comments.<br />you are not the one that I had a blame on.<br /><br />welcome back,<br /><br />BB<br /><br />1/24/2006 9:07 PM <br /> Scraps said... <br />I'll echo what bmgbochur said.<br /><br />You speak the truth.<br /><br />*thumbs-up*<br /><br />1/25/2006 11:04 AM <br /> On The Derech said... <br />Elisheva, <br />I completely respect you! You speak so truthfuly. There should be a private place for all "good" girls like you who are curious/daring/naughty to talk and get others opinions without having to 'expose' their naughtiness to their 'real life' friends!<br /><br />This is a wonderful outlet for you and i hope we can all give you advice/inspiration/plain fun without the sickos who turn you off ruining the beauty that is blogworld!<br /><br />Keep it up!!<br /><br />1/25/2006 12:20 PM <br /> Semgirl said... <br />OTD, A few months ago I suggested the possibility of an all girls blog. I am still exploring the idea of it being password protected.<br /><br />1/25/2006 2:51 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Thanks everyone. <br /><br />I can just picture it<br /><br />"The only blog with a Mechitza!"<br /><br />Great idea SemGirl!<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/25/2006 4:01 PM <br /> typically frum said... <br />keep up the good work. any guy who's surfing the web to pleasure himself might as well be on your blog, it's cleaner than any XXX site. <br />all these guys that kvetch so much are just trying to let out their frustration on you, trying to blame you for the bulge in their pants.<br /><br />1/25/2006 5:44 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />I'm not exactly sure that that's a compliment... Oh well. I think I get what you're saying.<br /><br />Also I do IY"H plan on posting soon with some news.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/25/2006 5:59 PM <br /> typically frum said... <br />good night.tty tomorrow.or tonight?<br /><br />1/25/2006 6:02 PM <br /> Josh said... <br />Eli - I know it seems like I've neglected your blog, but I've been reading the whole time, just waiting for an opportunity to comment. I hope you'll understand if I respond to a whole bunch of stuff now.<br /><br />Your long comment on how you had to reconsider your whole blogging existence was an incredibly deep piece (could have been its own post!). Everyone has to judge for themselves whether they are gaining or losing from any given decision on their own, so I hope you'll ignore all the mishugas and do what you think is right.<br /><br />As far as the content of your blog, I have always felt that you should write whatever is on your mind. There is no need to tailor your posts to your audience. If you want to write about girl stuff, enjoy. The blog is for you. If that means guys won't enjoy it, then they can go elsewhere. If that means that guys will enjoy it too much, well they can go elsewhere anyways. The blogosphere is where you can let loose, and don't give that up!<br /><br />You have always written respectfully and maturely, and I'd hate for you to sacrifice such an open opportunity for you to discover yourself. We have certainly learned a lot from your insights.<br /><br />Finally, Also I do IY"H plan on posting soon with some news.<br /><br />Am I the only one that got the chills? Does that mean what I think it means? Are you going to pull an AnySara on us?<br /><br />1/25/2006 9:06 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />hey there elisheva, nice piece. you are very eloquent and possess extraordinary literary skills, far better than a lot of lakewood ppl that i know! <br />and semgirl, i love the idea of an all girls blog!!!<br /><br />1/25/2006 10:22 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />ms. shtark:<br />"far better than a lot of lakewood ppl that i know!"<br />I take that as a personal insult...<br />ok I'm not a lakewood person, or maybe I am?<br />sorry if I come across like a dwork (geshmaker will say I am!) but I know how to spell and I do know how to use grammer correctly. (that is while using spell check, of course)<br />an all girls blog? if you want me to leave ill leave even before you make an all girls blog, but seriously I think its a great idea, the only question is how to know who anyone is??? maybe by invite only???<br /><br />BB<br /><br />1/25/2006 11:01 PM <br /> FrumGirl said... <br />Is it too late to post a comment? I thought your topic was pretty much on the money. Judging by the amount of people you reach, maybe someone out there that needed to internalize this has learned something.... I really like your style. Looking forward to a girl only blog, lol.<br /><br />1/25/2006 11:30 PM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />ummm bmg b, i was not talking to you. you are not from lw. and i just realized that i also spelled stuff wrong like posessed. i am not perfect either. it is just that every single bingle bmg guy that i dated, i mentally correct their grammar in my head. i never tell them directly because i don't want to embarass them but it irks me. they try to sound all worldly by using 'fancy' language, but like hellooooo... like try again?<br />and yes an all girls blog would be great because then we can discuss our deep dark secrets and not have to worry about being tznius becaus some guy will check it but like the singles meeting, this is also an idea that just wont happen<br /><br />1/25/2006 11:46 PM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />"Like the singles meeting, this is also an idea that just wont happen"<br />ms. shtark, please be an optimist. always look at the bright side.<br />say "iyh it will happen, just don't know well"<br />doesn't that change it a bit??? doesn't it sound more positive???<br />or maybe heck with being positive, say it to the point...<br /><br />honestly I think the singles thing "might" happen.:)<br /><br />good night<br /><br />1/25/2006 11:53 PM <br /> BZMGBIG said... <br />if you make an all girls blog will bmgbochur get the passsword?<br /><br />1/26/2006 12:08 AM <br /> bmgbochur said... <br />BZMGBIG, sorry but I highly doubt I would have / get the password<br />and honestly speaking if its only for girls, why would I want to be there? they would probally/maybe be speaking about things that guys/bochurim should hear. <br />ever thought of that??? (i don't need an answer.)<br /><br />1/26/2006 12:17 AM <br /> Thoroughly Teased said... <br />"and yes an all girls blog would be great because then we can discuss our deep dark secrets and not have to worry about being tznius becaus some guy will check<br /><br />Ms. Stark. You're killing us guys. You and LE7 and SG and all the others keep making these comments like who knows what really goes on that we don't know about. Do me a favor (and all the other guys out there), tell me you were just teasing, right? It's not like you frum girls are really a bunch of wild, sensual party girls when no one is looking? Or are you?<br /><br />1/26/2006 12:34 AM <br /> Mata Hari said... <br />question - why are you the one who has to correct your brothers and teach them midos? what about your parents...what's their attitude. don't you think a lot of this (learning about midos, manners, how to treat people) comes from the home?<br /><br />1/26/2006 7:15 AM <br /> BZMGBIG said... <br />i just assumed they would need someone to agree with everything they say. and put in insightful comments like:<br />"wow,<br />wow,<br />and<br />wow,<br /><br />what you just wrote is so true, wow."<br /><br />that might just be the most virile comment ever posted on a blog in the history of bloggery. <br />do you see now why u belong in a girls only bog?<br /><br />1/26/2006 10:50 AM <br /> ms. shtark said... <br />oh my gosh, everyone just chill out! newsflash, this all girls blog aint happening so fast. if we really want to share something, we can just email privately so drop it. there is like way too much testosterone going on here. i think i will let everyone calm down for a while.<br /><br />1/26/2006 1:42 PM <br /> Elisheva said... <br />Ms. Stark you are right. Did they never hear of e-mail? And Mati I just feel I need to mention that actually I credit all my middos to my parents. One thing they were strong about is that you have to be a mentch. Much as I disagree with a lot of the things they do, this is one thing they always stressed.<br /><br />I hope to post something ni a few minutes.<br /><br />Shalom<br /><br />1/26/2006 3:06 PM<div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-8388810398125400370?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-44898336962625751282008-09-24T22:43:00.000-07:002008-09-24T22:45:41.053-07:00<strong>Wednesday, January 04, 200<br /><br />Okay, so I’m finally writing something. I don’t know if anyone even bothers still checking my blog because like I have been away for like way too long, but I guess I can start anew like when I started my blog. I just want to let everyone know how much it really meant to me all the comments, all the opinions, and all the friendship. I have been quite busy lately, more than I ever anticipated when I started posting stuff and had the notion that I could always keep up with so many great blogs, post my own stuff, and e-mail so many great people. I think I have been remiss in all of these. My apologies to anyone I ever left hanging. I really love the posts and e-mails and always want to comment and respond, but I guess I cannot always get online and B”H am busy with stuff, my job, my siblings, etc. Even now, I am in a very emotionally intense period of life (Okay, you all know what that means for a girl in my stage of life – serious dating!), but I think I need the comfort and therapeutic help of finally sitting down and writing something.<br /><br />So what’s on my mind? I received a few interesting comments from some people I only know through e-mail and blogs. These were quite flattering and had to do with my middos. I’d hate to sound show-offy, but I do try very hard to be a mentch. B”H it seems that my conscientiousness pays off and I hope I have made a Kiddush Hashem with my actions and behavior. I will fully and totally credit my parents for bringing me up this way. See an earlier post about how my parents, though perhaps not always my idea of open-mindedness, are still my ideal of mentchlichkeit. The interesting part is that I have received more than a few comments like, “Are you sure you’re not a ba’alas teshuva?” Or, “Are you really from Lakewood?” Or, “You can’t be as yeshivish as you make yourself out to be, you’re too much of a mentch.”<br /><br />This got me thinking a lot. First it upset me actually. Like these people must be so stereotyped against frum, yeshivish people. But like the more I thought about it, I realized that I myself like so often get upset about the very same thing. Why do my brothers never dream to say the basic please and thank you’s in some situations? Why am I the one from my group of friends who thinks to get a gift for the saleslady after we made her crazy a whole month while preparing for our school production? Why am I always reminding my brother to tip the delivery guy?<br /><br />When I was just recently in Boro Park (I think BP in conducive to thoughts for my blog!), I was in a store with a wagon full of stuff for my grandparents for Shabbos. A guy comes in and takes two donuts and stands behind me. I told him he could go in front of me. I didn’t think twice about it, I mean this guy had like nothing and I had a wagon full. The fellow looked at me and said, “You’re not from here, right?” I blushed, cause I am not used to making conversation with strange (especially good-looking) men in public. I thought he was trying to strike up a conversation, but I anyways just told him no I am not. The guy smirked and said, “Cause no one in Boro Park would ever give up a spot anywhere for anything in the world.” I didn’t know what to say. The guy then asked conversationally, “So where are you from?” Now I was like totally blushing furiously because he was obviously taking an interest in me. But still I did say I was from Lakewood. The young man did a double take and like his mouth fell open. “I learned in Lakewood. It’s just as bad as Boro Park. I thought for sure you were from out of town.” <br /><br />B”H the cashier was finished with him then and he left, but I was like stunned and upset. Do we have such a bad name? Why? First I was like upset at him for thinking this of us, but then I remembered like I said before how I also often have these same complaints. Why is it the out-of-towners who will stop and let a girl cross at a corner while the local drivers just need to get across two seconds earlier? Why are so many safety concerns laughed at by frum people? Then I wondered if I was falling into the same trap. Like maybe there were good people and bad people in both yeshivish and non-yeshivish categories, and we just only notice our own negative aspects. But I still think that there is a certain disregard for simple old-fashioned etiquette, sensibility, and safety issues in our circles. So that brings me back to why? My grandmother always says, “Chivalry is a lost art. Behave like a princess, and your prince will seek to find it.” I think she is right, but why is this? <br /><br />I discussed this with the few people I know who understand where I am coming from and are open-minded and we came up with a thought that I’d like your opinions about. It seems that there is a certain healthy disregard for worldly things in frum and yeshivish society. Obviously we don’t want to pick up all the trash and garbage out there in the world. We don’t want girls talking to every guy even if the world says that it is nice to be like that. That is fine. I will admit the more we talk and relate to strangers at our horny, young, sometimes-reckless age, the stupider, sillier, and flirtier we can act. <br /><br />The problem is that people take that to the extreme. “If I am not supposed to be like that, then I totally ignore all guys.” But if a guy picks up a bag you dropped, you should say thank you! He isn’t a piece of furniture. He did something for you. No one says you have to say, thank you and what’s your name and where are you from and start a whole conversation (though I think some guys kind of wished we dropped things just so that they can pick it up and start such a convo.) But you can say thank you. That’s all. <br /><br />So the thing is I think we like go too much to the extreme in so many things like this. I think it is more in our community because we automatically think, and rightfully so, that lots of goyish stuff is wrong or silly. But we still like need to use our brains and middos. Maybe not every health issue by the goyim is real. Maybe they overdue stuff to be politically right. But does that mean smoking is not stupid? (Sorry too all my brothers friends who anyway will never read this blog and don’t dream that I realize what they do out back late at night. We girls are not all that stupid. And you come in smelling after that, and don't think the mint candy covers it all up.) Does that mean that it’s like some shtik to drive carelessly and not a real danger? <br /><br />Even if some goyish etiquette is stupid, as frum Yidden we have to remember that middos is important. Saying thank you is middos. Giving a thank you gift and a tip is middos. Letting someone go ahead in many situations is middos, not just ettiqutte.<br /><br />I am not sure if I am like trying to fit too many situations into my theory, but I really think that a lot of our mishugasen comes from a misplaced mistrust and distaste for goyish rules and etiquette. As one last example I will bring up and old pet peeve in my house. My brothers always tease me about how I still sign my name using a heart to dot the “i”. Lately the complaint became more frum. It is goyish to be busy with hearts and stuff. I think my mother thinks it is goyish to like so much lace and frills too. What I am saying is I totally admit that like parading your femininity in public is goyish. Perhaps also making a whole fantasy world of hearts and ribbons is also more Hollywood than a sensible frum life should be. But does that make the whole thing bad? Isn’t it just human for a girl to be feminine, not necessarily goyish? <br /><br />We need to be more careful to think for ourselves where worldy hashpa’os end, and where basic mentchlichkeit and middos begin. <br /><br />I don’t know when I will be able to post again, but thanks again to everyone for reading my stuff and especially to my special friend SemGirl for absolutely everything. You mean a lot more to me that I can ever explain. Shalom to all of you.<br /><br />posted by Elisheva @ 8:04 PM</strong><div class="blogger-post-footer"><img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/6588478726286314693-4489833696262575128?l=semstory2.blogspot.com' alt='' /></div>Elishevahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13361066822127031856noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6588478726286314693.post-18596706018805097632008-09-24T22:10:00.000-07:002008-09-24T22:12:57.272-07:00Racheli said... <br />Welcome back. You were truly missed. <br /><br />3:50 PM <br /><br /><br />Josh said... <br />Elisheva - Welcome back! I can't fully comment (I'm still at work), so more later, but I just wanted to say that in my office, I hear almost no inappropriate office talk about private matters. And I work in quite the non-Jewish environment. While every office is different, it seems curiuos that the "Heimishness" of your office is exactly what enables this openness. Good thing or bad thing? I'll have to get back to you. <br /><br />But for now, it's just good to hear from you! <br /><br />5:43 PM <br /><br /><br />Comment Deleted <br />This post has been removed by the author. <br /><br />6:51 PM <br /><br /><br /> Y.Y. said... <br />it should be perfectly ok to talk about it with friends <br /><br />6:54 PM <br /><br /><br />Halfnutcase said... <br />i wouldn't know from personal expiriance but some level of this kind of dialogue on verying levels of explicitness have been going on ever scince there was more than one jewish wife alive at the same time. just depends on where you are comfortable with it i guess. you do happen to be a kallah maidel and it will, im eretz hashem be important for you to know some of those things, and then you too will probably find your own place to discuss these things (again this is only from what i understand and friends have told me! i don't know much about that particular topic honest so please no questions)<br /><br />but on the other side, it's true that every office has their ownm atmosphere and at a very heimishe office i could really expect this kind of talk. if you don't want to hear it for one reason or a nother speak out. <br /><br />7:22 PM <br /><br /><br /> EN said... <br />Welcome back! <br /><br />8:19 PM <br /><br /><br />ms. shtark said... <br />hey nice to hear from you again. i work in a non-jewish office. we are pretty chilled out with each other but this level of intimate chit chat is never discussed in the office. it is too personal. u kind of need that professional boundary but i could see this going on in a frum office with a bunch of frum young women together. <br />the occasional joke about sex will be made but very impersonally - never from a person talking about his/her own situation <br /><br />11:06 PM <br /><br /><br />Semgirl said... <br />Fantastic post, Elisheva. But then all your posts are. You made my day (strike that, my week)<br /><br />I have only worked in Goyish places or gone to college, so I dont know. <br /><br />But one thing that is very troublesome, to me is how the frummest looking ladies with the snoods over their forehead in the street, suddenly when its Friday nite and all the men are in Shul and they are alone in a living room in one of the houses in the complex will talk about all sorts of stuff. And I dont mean insights on the weekly parsha. <br /><br />12:11 AM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />Hi! Gosh, it's been a long time. Thanx for all the welcome messages. I really missed you all. (OK, not all, almost all, lol!)<br /><br />First off I feel I have to mention that now that I am back online somewhat, I have been looking at all the blogs I used to check into, and I was at Bas Torah's blog. (I know as a sigle I like should probably not be there, but I guess I am totally not a saint..) SO like I saw that her last post was really a very similar issue to mine, if not like almost the same one. I guess this is more prevalent than we think. I just want to say I didn't realize she had done it, and maybe I would have chose another topic. I so don't want it to seem like I took her topic. But I guess that just like each group of ladies have their own discussions about sex with each other, so like different groups here can have different discussions about discussiouns about sex between ladies!<br /><br />Sounds like most of you here have less of a problem in the non-Jewish environment. It totally makes sense that it's the comraderie and feeling of the same of like loads of stuff that makes us more open about this too. Again, is that good or bad? My sister-in-law works in a hospital so the atmosphere there is very different than an average office, so maybe that's why it is so much worse there.<br /><br />SemGirl, you hit it right on the point as usual. I had my experience with those Friday night shmoozes too. What makes all that OK, especially like everyone feels a need to help her unmarried friends in this dept. for when we will IY"H be married. Like is there sometimes too much information? And even amongst married girls only, is all the talk and yent about this stuff OK?<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />8:37 AM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Come on Elisheva after last post we thought we would get more interesting details... we need to know more specifics of the conversations in order to comment. <br /><br />9:21 AM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Please encourage all your Jewish women friends to take up oral.<br /><br />Hopefully it will spread throughout the Jewish community and Moshiach will finally come.<br /><br />No pun intended. <br /><br />12:14 PM <br /><br /><br />powder said... <br />Hello Elisheva,<br />I am new to your blog, and was amused to see this post after I had seen the same thing on Bas Torah's blog! <br />I have worked in Heimish environments, and gone to a secular college, and never did I hear any of this talk although I was harrassed by some of my "Frum" male co-workers. <br />I will write here what I wrote there. When I first got married, I did speak about some of the things I did with some friends and sisters, and now I regret it. My husband was embaressed and a little hurt that I couldnt talk to him and that I was talking about our personal lives. I also chalk it up to a bit of immaturity, and excitement that you want to share with your friends. I dont talk about my personal life with anyone anymore. Its MY life. Even if I would discuss it with someone, it would NEVER be at the workplace.<br />I am sorry these women have no one to vent to, but comparing war stories is kind of un-Tznius. When offices are more professional, I really dont think this type of thing goes on, but that is my opinion.<br />If you value your personal life, you wont air it out like dirty laundry. <br />As for family crushes, I read Moochy's post too, and I must say its sad. I also have never experienced that. I love my husband, I respect him, and he is all I need.<br />Hashem should be "Mimaleh kul mishalos libeich li tovah" and may you find what you are looking for soon. <br /><br />3:21 PM <br /><br /><br />SS said... <br />I think it is inappropriate to "vent" about personal issues to a whole office full of people. If it is absolutely necessary, find one person who you feel really comfortable with (probably someone who doesn't know your spouse or whoever else the story is about, so that you can avoid uncomfortable situations later), and talk to that one person in a manner that is productive. If you are just whining, I don't think that counts. Nobody, NOBODY, should be in your bedroom except you and your husband (soon by you), and G-d. Who else needs to be there? If there is a really serious problem and professional help is needed, go for it, but your best friend is not a professional (and even if she is, I don't think she is the right one in this case).<br /><br />Welcome back, and great entry. <br /><br />4:02 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />first of all, welcome back. In the absence of Gadol Hador we need someone to fill the void. My bubby had a saying which loses some of its flavor when translated into english but it goes something like " what's in the goyish world is also in the Jewish worlrd". Take my word for it. Frum people have sex, cheat on spouses and in business. Also Frum people, who daven, give tzadeka and wear synthetic wigs get sick and die just like the rest of us <br /><br />6:13 PM <br /><br /><br /> Josh said... <br />OK, I've thought it over. As has been suggested, I think the "heimisheness" of your office has let people's professional guard down. While that might seem nice, I don't think it's a good thing. Intimate details are intimate details. Not only do they not belong in an office for professional reasons, but as frum Jews, we should have higher expectations for Hilchos Tznius. Sure, every topic may need to be discussed with somebody, but a public forum is no place for private details. Tznius doesn't mean what you wear. So what excuse is there for a bunch of frum women to talk about this as a group, whether in the office or in the home Friday night? Talk about it with your spouse, with a professional, or discreetly with somebody else you trust. And that's before taking the husband's feelings into account, as Powder mentioned. <br /><br />I think this is part of a larger issue, where the frum world overly focuses on specific things, such as shaitels and yeshivos, but doesn't fully ingrain the actual Hashkafic underpinning of the Mitzvos. Frum women should know that discussing their bedroom experiences is no different than wearing a mini-skirt. Or maybe the problem is that too many people are frum for social reasons, and not for spiritual ones. <br /><br />8:35 PM <br /><br /><br />Mrs. Dreykup said... <br />Elisheva-<br />I too, work in a frum, heimeshe office. I spend 8 hours a day, 4 or 5 days a week with these girls/women. That's more time then I spend with my husband!! Inevitabely, you become real friends with these people as they are frum and approximately your age. I don't know about other people, but I talk to my co-workers outside of the work environment as well. It makes sense that such "friendly" talk does not take place in a non-frum office as people don't feel as close to one another as they have nothing more in common other then the fact that they work together. As far as the appropriatness of such conversation, who else are you supposed to talk about such things? Yes, it would be nice to say that if we all just didn't talk about it, none of us would have expectations or start comparing but bottom line is, anyone who is reading this post has access to the internet and many other outside influences. We all know what is out there in the world. We are all influenced. Yes, what happens in the bedroom is definately private and specifics should absolutely be left out but if there is something that someone feels they need to talk about, who better to talk to then a good friend? No matter how "frum" you are, most people have something they feel they need to speak about to someone on the outside who may know what she is talking about. I do not, however, think it is appropriate to have open discussions amongst a whole group of people, especially if one or more of those people is NOT married. <br /><br />10:06 PM <br /><br /><br />frumlkwdgrl said... <br />your taking an extreme case and making it the norm, <br /><br />10:42 PM <br /><br /><br />modernorthomale said... <br />hey elisheva! i just started reading ur blog and it is awesome! I feel very similar on a lot of things (even though im a guy). this post was awesome, even though it probably wasnt great for my neshama (im sure u know what i mean, if not ask). Also, i think the over/under on how many times you said the word "like" is 30"! have a great shabbos! <br /><br />2:17 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Modern, LOL.<br />Not meaning to poke fun, E, but you DO say "like" a lot, and u sound like you do a lot of teenage speak. (ie: totally, sooo , etc)Its cute. <br /><br />2:30 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />OK. Sorry about the teen-speak. Yes, everyone teases me about it always, so go ahead, i'm used to it. I actually thought i tried to like cut down on it in this latest post, but I guess I didn't really succeed. Gosh! I wrote like again! Sorry.<br /><br />Seems there are lots of opinions which I hope to deal with more on Motzei Shabbos. I thought over stuff and I think one main point I should point out is that I think we would all totally agree that no one should discuss such stuff in public. I mean like even all the ladies in my office would agree. I just think they consider this among freinds, like a cozy place you can finally discuss stuff you couldn't anywhere else. <br /><br />It isn't everyone sitting around and having a group discussion. Maybe I didn't make that clear. It's more like when two or three women are together copying, or filing or whatever, it will be discussed only amongst them. But I have to admit one of them might later tell someone else what she heard, like something she wondered about if that was OK, or good or whatever. And it does happen that others can overhear. But it isn't like totally public discussion.<br /><br />More after Shabbos. Good Shabbos and Shalom <br /><br />3:13 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Josh. please spare us all about the miniskirt. It's a mitzvah to cover up those fat calves and piano legs <br /><br />6:21 PM <br /><br /><br />Dr. Dreykup said... <br />Hey Elisheva, I work in a large goyish firm and the people who do their own thing and have nothing much to do with their co-workers may not hear much or discuss much but after time passed am ive worked with a lot of ppl you should only hear the gross and unrepeatable stories I hear daily from the goyim about all the details of their s-x life... and im talking about a lot of goyim - not just a few. So in the frum workplace ppl feel close to eachother and relate well to eachother from the get-go but once goyim get to that comfort level with you its even worse... <br />PS - I finally posted a solution on my blog to my last post - id love to hear what you think! g-vuch! <br /><br />7:18 PM <br /><br /><br />modernorthomale said... <br />Elisheva- I am sorry if i embarrassed you- it was wrong of me to make the comment- i am really sorry! <br /><br />9:37 PM <br /><br /><br />Litvshe said... <br />Welcome back Elisheva,<br /><br />Anyway...I certainly think it's fine if women discuss these things. As you mentioned it seems to at least helped one woman. That said, there is someone to say for tznius in these matters. I mean if you talk about it to a close friend in private, great. It's important to get encouragement/help/tips from people you trust. Though, maybe the whole group therapy thing isn't so bad. As long as there are no men around... I guess each case should be weighed on a case by case base for telling your significant other. Personally, it wouldn't bother me if my wife discussed these things with her friends, but I know guys, who I'm sure would be mortified.<br /><br />On the other hand...one might need to look at the laws of nivul peh. Though I think in this case it might be more stingent for men... <br /><br />7:41 AM <br /><br /><br />Semgirl said... <br />I know a lot of bochurim, are going to take me to task for the following. If you are ehrlich, I suggest you go Here and stay away from way from veibishe blogs.<br /><br />Neway, Elisheva its so funny, you brought this up, and like thatג€™s all I have been hearing lately. Friday nite, my father went to davern in this very Chasidish place, and came home late because he doesnג€™t make Kiddush till after 7, so there was a lot of time to talk. <br /><br />The topic, came up about who pleases who, This one lady, Iג€™ll call her Rivky (names have been changed , etcג€¦) , was complaining that the Calla teachers and Rebittzens are always telling the ladies what they have to do for the husbands. Meanwhile, its his mitzva of Onah. They spend 300$ for the nicest esrog, get the best possible Sofer for the best possible Tefillen. But when it comes to the mitzva of Onah, somehow they think ג€œshtup , shtupג€, is sufficient. When in reality if the lady isnג€™t fully satisfied you have not fulfilled the mitzva at all. In fact you are just ruining the Shalom Bayis. She got so passionately angry that she was really turning red. I was so uncomfortable. But I guess its better then going into a marriage totally na‾ve and stuff. <br /><br />1:37 PM <br /><br /><br />Eshet Chayil said... <br />I've seen it too many times. It's a natural reaction to start wondering when things are mentioned. I mean, people need to learn what's private, and what's public. Who cares if her husband like boxers of briefs...not me. <br /><br />3:28 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />Hi again,<br /><br />MOM, don't worry, I totally don't mind. I guess we all have our little things that we can't stop no matter how much we try. I can see how it can get to people. I have been told that it makes me cute, and that it makes me imposible to bear, so i guess I will have to marry someone from the first group. Wow! I think I managed in this paragraph!<br /><br />SemGirl, it is truly funny, cause now that I am more aware, and also more friends are getting married and also i think married people like are more open with a girl who is post sem, I do se it so much.<br /><br />I don't think it usually is public as in really public to qualify as without good taste. it is usually among a close-knit group of two or three. Maybe there are cases of even more very close-knit friends, but I don't know.<br /><br />I think it is more an issue like is it good or bad at all, or like some say, does it like depend on every case. Cause I totally can see how it can be looked at such a breach of privacy, on the other hand, it an really help and be a healthy outlet. Then again I won't deny we all have a desire to hear and read about such stuff, so maybe it is just simple evil desire.<br /><br />From the guys it's funny cause I thought they never dreamed what goes on and they would be really upset and it seems most whom I heard from like totally don't mind their wives learning stuff and comparing stuff with other girls, even girls they know. That did surprise me, but if so maybe it isn't such a breach of privacy.<br /><br />Josh, as usual you identified the reason it happens very well. But like most of your problem was the tznius issue of making these things public. I wonder though what about intimate Friday night discussions with a friend, or among close office friends. It is not so public, but is it still really a horrible untznius thing, or like others say, like maybe we all are exposed so at least this can be a semi-private way of finding stuff out and making things better.<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />4:26 PM <br /><br /><br />Moochy said... <br />Hi Girl, <br />Nice post.<br />Thanx for the mention.<br />Lets not kid ourselves , everyone loves to talkl about it, and thats why you have so many comments on these issues.<br />In all , what people didnt pick up here , is that it made you aware of your Brother in law's existance in a sexual way, and that might become a problem.... <br /><br />5:06 PM <br /><br /><br />Yossi said... <br />Hey Elisheva, great blog!<br /><br />I am from Lakewood and was shocked and happy to see what you wrote about in-laws and I also checked out Moochy's blog. I am in a very uncomfortable situation with my own sister-in-law and thought it must be such a rare thing and who would ever understand. So I was in a way happy to see that i am obviously not alone, though it is still not any help.<br /><br />My sister-in-law Yehudis (don't worry she has no internet access), always acts VERY flirty and intimate with me. I first thought I was fooling myslef, maybe because she is pretty and I will admit acts very sexy so maybe it's just a guy trying to tell himself the girls like him etc. But then my wife started mentioning it to me alot about isn't she getting too far with me, always "by mistake" bumping into me, giving me these huge smiles and telling me things I probably would be better off not knowing.<br /><br />I think she has problems communicating with her husband, and I admit people do open up to me alot, but this is very sticky. I am human, she is sexy and cute and I know this just is crazy, but I see she really needs someone to talk to. I think they need help, but I could never tell her this.<br /><br />I guess i am unloading here for lack of a better venue although this is of no consequence to anyone, but now I see she isn't totally abnormal and there seems to be a thing making it OK to have a crush on an in-law. But doesn't it say "ain apotropus larayos"? <br /><br />6:21 PM <br /><br /><br /> Y.Y. said... <br />yossi you got a great fantasy <br /><br />6:38 PM <br /><br /><br />modernorthomale said... <br />elisheva- no i dont mind at all. in fact i think it is cute. anywyas, ill speak to u later. <br /><br />8:46 PM <br /><br /><br /> Josh said... <br />Three more quick opinions - <br /><br />1) In reaction to Yossi, and I guess Moochy and Elisheva, those closest represent the highest risk because we tend to let our guard down. It's one thing to take a quick look at somebody you pass on the street...and will probably never see again, and another thing altogether to toe the line with a "relative" that you will regularly encounter in private situations. It's hard, but stay away, and communicate your perception to your spouse. An ally helps.<br /><br />2) As far as the Tznius factor of discussing *personal* issues with close friends, I don't think that as long as you only tell it in front of one person, it's Tznius. There is a difference between having one confidante in the world whom you fully open up with - and gabbing idividually with every woman you run into about your frustrations and fantasies, no matter where you might be.<br /><br />3) Finally, my reaction to Elisheva's phish for guy's personal opinion's on the matter. As a guy, I would be humiliated if I knew my wife was talking about our *personal* life with ANYONE. It's definitely a don't ask, don't tell situation. Hopefully, we'd speak about it between the two of us, but if for whatever reason she needed to speak to somebody else for an opinion, I don't know if I could face that person if I knew they spoke to my wife. I may not be a courageous guy, but I'm honest. <br /><br />8:59 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Talking about a problem with a friend is one thing. Talking about such things regularly is a sure recipe for a lack of intimacy in marriage. you are getting a VERY bad model from these women, elisheva. <br /><br />"Rivky" seems to be in a bad marriage and she seems to have a bad attitude to men (hard to know which came first, but I bet it's a vicious cycle). Her friends should not let her jabber on. They should tell her this is not a good thing or to be expected, to talk to her husband, and maybe to think about counseling for the two of them since if this is a young couple this is a very odd pattern to be in so early. <br /><br />You should stay away. You are learning VERY bad patterns from these women. Women who feel loved don't talk about their sex life to their friends. <br /><br />5:37 AM <br /><br /><br /> NormalJew said... <br />I'm like wow! she posted finally. totally awesome. like, hello! You totally didnt comment on my blog in like ages. ( I am making fun, but in good humor ;-)<br /><br />Great post! Nothing wrong with girls or ladies amongst themselves dicussing their lives! why not?<br /><br />You need to open up your mind a bit more, thas all!<br /><br />Peace!<br /><br />NJ from NJ <br /><br />9:27 AM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />There is nothing wrong with "girl talk" if the purpose is to exchange information and learn from the experiences of others. Men and women don't always think alike or understand each other, so a woman can benefit from talking to her friends.<br />It only becomes vulgar when the purpose is showing off or ridiculing the poor fellow's performance.<br />If done with the proper attitude, men can also benefit from girl talk. <br /><br />12:29 PM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />..I meant to say that men can benefit from the results of girl talk. Sometimes women need to learn from each other. Of course, such discussions should only take place among women who feel close and at ease with each other. <br /><br />12:39 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />Can I ask who 'Rivky' is? Or is this like just slipping my mind? <br /><br />2:23 PM <br /><br /><br />Semgirl said... <br />They are referring to my comment. Not her real name, obviously.. <br /><br />9:08 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />"Nothing wrong with girls or ladies amongst themselves dicussing their lives! why not?"<br />"There is nothing wrong with "girl talk" if the purpose is to exchange information and learn from the experiences of others. Men and women don't always think alike or understand each other, so a woman can benefit from talking to her friends.<br />It only becomes vulgar when the purpose is showing off or ridiculing the poor fellow's performance.<br />If done with the proper attitude, men can also benefit from girl talk."<br /><br /><br />There's nothing wrong with talking to your mother about your husband, or yoru husband talking to his mom about you. But you know, when the wife COMPLAINS to her mother, or the husband complains to his mother, it's called "Triangulating" <br />It's a way of bringing a third party into the relationship and not having an intimate relationship between the pair. <br />It's also OK to talk to your kids about your spouse. But not to complain, and similarly you don't involve your friends on a constant basis in the details of your sex life just to "share." If you do, something is wrong. It's not more complicated than that. <br /><br />Marriage is not high school. This isn't your friend, that you gossip about. <br /><br />And it's worse if your husband minds, but this is true even if he doesn't. <br /><br />9:52 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />"I also chalk it up to a bit of immaturity, and excitement that you want to share with your friends. "<br /><br />That's right. It's immature, and a holdover from high school to think this is something to discuss with "Friends" like a trip, or a shopping expedition. <br /><br />If you want to have a good marriage, you have to grow up! <br /><br />Even in the nonjewish world, It's considered very tacky to talk about your spouse, or even anyone you are seriously dating. Except for very low-class types, people talk about people they are casually dating. When they get serious, they stop talking. <br /><br />9:59 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />OK. So it sounds like most people think that in most cases the talk is totally wrong. Though some say it is normal, healthy and fine.<br /><br />I also notied that I think most of the pros signed their names, while the cons were like anonymous. Why is that? Any ideas?<br /><br />Personally I still can't make up my mind absolutely, though I so hear both sides. Like are the people saying it is bad, those frummy people who don't admit they do it too? Or are they people who have it right and the ones yapping about stuff are so like immature and stuff.<br /><br />The truth is I have to admit that this very much reminds me of the talks we had in the dorm in sem. So in a way I thought OK so why is this different. on the other hand, perhaps that shows that it is immature talk, and we are like supposed to outgrow it. Our real marriage lives are more serious. OK, so I will give this more thought.<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />12:06 AM <br /><br /><br />nobody28 said... <br />Elisheva - I am new to your blog - I am a married woman who lives in Lakewood.<br /><br />I work in a non-jewish office. There is NO private talk here - unless 2 people are really close friends - I guess they may talk - but no one else would hear. I do not think it is appropriate to discuss this type of stuff with so many people. <br /><br />I personally have one really good friend that I have known for almost 15 years, that I can talk to a little. And we still don't get to graphic. I know my husband would NOT appreciate it, and hers probably wouldn't either. But it does help to have some one to talk to when you need it. But ONE person - not a group.<br /><br />There - you have a "con" that's not anonymous.<br /><br />(And don't listen to NormalJew - he's a perv in my opinion.) <br /><br />9:43 AM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />Grow up, folks! I'm nor talking about adolescent gigling. I'm talking about a frank, mature woman to woman talk. Perhaps I should not have used the term "girl talk"<br />I wouldn't speak to my mom or shvigger because They are not objective enough. Also I'm not gonna speak to my shvigger about her own son. That's creepy! I would speak to trusted friends who are wise and mature. I believe the correct term would be the fellowship or comraderie of women with their friends. <br /><br />10:38 AM <br /><br /><br />powder said... <br />I gave my opinion against it, and I wasnt anonymous. <br /><br />12:38 PM <br /><br /><br />Me said... <br />Just reposting what I removed further up (sorry Elisheva).<br /><br />I've only ever worked in non-Jewish/non-frum environments, and I can tell you that the talk there is usually non-intimate. When you work with people your own age, though, it tends to get more familiar - people are interested in you, your family, husband (or boyfriend) etc. But not the intimate details you mentioned in your blog. It's very important to set boundaries in your work environment, otherwise feelings of discomfort just increase over time. It's important to keep your workplace professional, not personal.<br /><br />Amongst girls (or women), those types of discussion are generally reserved for very close friends. But it does help to talk about things - it's kind of like a form of (free) therapy.<br /><br />Set boundaries. If certain types of discussion make you feel uncomfortable, don't be drawn into the conversation - find something else to do, or change the topic.<br /><br />Also, isn't a part of Avinu Malkeinu<br />to do with "salacious talk"? <br /><br />5:35 PM <br /><br /><br />BrooklynJewishGuy said... <br />elisheva: It's time for a new blog. <br /><br />Listen to the wise women here, i.e., me, shira22, Mrs. dreykup, powder and a couple of the more recent anonymous's. <br /><br />As far as moochy's post about the intimate in-laws, really now. Don't blow it up out of proportion. I believe it CAN happen, but I tend to think (as yy said above to yossi)......... it's (only) a great fantasy. It don't happen too much. <br /><br />Anything REAL and INTERESTING you wanna discuss? <br /><br />6:12 PM <br /><br /><br /> Josh said... <br />BJG, now play nice. Elisheva has this space to address whatever's on her mind. If we need to balance out the Lakewood Yentas (I agree with you) and put Eli's questions in perspective, that's fine. But the hostess gets to steer the conversation... <br /><br />9:53 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />First of all I totally never meant to insult any cons who did use their name. I am like so sorry if anyone got insulted. I just thought their were MORE con opinions without a name.<br /><br />I thought over the whole issue. I think I have to agree that it probably is not a right thing besides like a real close and good friend when you really want to know if there is other stuff to please your husband or like whatever and like how else should you find out.<br /><br />I think it is true that lots of the shmoozing is simply like we are humans and deep down have desires and get horny and this is one of the ways we get aroused. I didn't think married people would still have it like this, but i guess I am learning that somethings never go away.<br /><br />So I am not saying i wouldn't do it, just like I still tease guys and flirt sometimes when i shouldn't. I am so not a saint. But at least i think i admit I know it really is wrong and should be avoided.<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />12:21 AM <br /><br /><br />tuesdaywishes said... <br />If you are shmoozing with your best friends and there are no men or kids and you want to let your hair down, that's your business, but to discuss sex in front of an unmarried woman is cruel. It's just as bad as talking about pregnancy and parenting in front of someone you know to be infertile. (The same women are probably guilty of that too.)<br /><br />Another warning; people repeat things. They just do, even after all of the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundations videos and classes and projects. So when you confide to your friend, or group of friends, and one of them tells her sister, who tells her husband, who sits next to your husband in shul and wonders if the story about the Fruit Roll-Up is true... three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead. <br /><br />12:24 AM <br /><br /><br />powder said... <br />tuesdaywishes, you hit it on the button. When these women discuss their sex lives, do they really think no one is going to leave and tell their next friend or husband, "Do you know what X does? She doesnt seem the type" or what not. I have had personal experience with that kind of thing. Someone once told me something very interesting about her friend, and I never asked to hear this information. It was just told to me because it seemed so "juicy". <br />I repeat, in the beginning it may seem fun to talk about, because its new and exciting, but its only harmful, hurtful and immature. Buy a book, or seek a professional. <br /><br />9:00 AM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />Once again,I said mature conversation with trusted friends. That does not mean the locker room at the gym! Also if a lady is doing such kinky things with her husband that she is really ashamed of it,perhaps she ought to listen to he conscience. Leave the kinky stuff to the porn industry and the fruit roll-ups in the kids lunch bags.<br />For the record, Elisheva, a husband has a chiev de orisa to please his wife. It's called the mitzvah of oinor(pardon the transliteration). The wife does not have the same chiev. It is also assur for him to coerce the wife into doing anything she doesn't want to do. He, on the other hand has to do whatever he can to please his wife. I know they don't tell you that in seminary and I'm willing to bet they don't inform bochurim of that either. <br /><br />10:36 AM <br /><br /><br />David said... <br />Hey Elisheva,<br />Welcome back to blogland..(I know..I'm a little late..)<br />Goodness..what a loaded topic. I have a group of "friends" that also always seem to talk about these things...and I find it terrible. There's nothing wrong with talking to friends privately..but a big sex conversation in an office about spouses is not a healthy situaltion.<br />As for the inner family crushes..I grew up in a house where one of my parents was/is a therapist..and I can tell you RUN away as fast as you can from even considering such a relationship...You can't fathom the damage it causes..<br /><br />Cheers<br />D <br /><br />12:59 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />So shira22 if they don't tell you that in seminary from where did you find out about it? For your information bochurim learn gemorah so they know this fact already and women might not have a chiev of onah as you call it but they have certain obligations to their husbands know something before you post nonesense. <br /><br />4:48 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Like i'ts probably like best like you should get like married like sooner rather then like later. Like like like like like like like like...... <br /><br />5:42 PM <br /><br /><br />Semgirl said... <br />Anon 1 re: Shira , I was going to say something along those lines, but didnt see the pt in being nasty and offensive .<br /><br />Anon 2: Like that is so funny, like I fell off my chair laughing.<br />Sorry, Shevy just teasing you.. <br /><br />6:46 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />OK, So LIKE (if only my friends knew I was getting teased in blogland as well...) Shira, I don't know who you are addressing, but like anyone who is online and loads of others too know all about that. And I also agree that even if we don't have the real chiyuv of onah, we surely have an obligation to make our husbands happy, even if only to like make sure our marriages are solid and then we ourselves can be happy.<br /><br />David, don't worry, I wouldn't dream of going there. I just said how i like had the passing thought and it was something I had never even thought about before. But I have reciebed two e-mails, from this Yossi guy and from one lady who says she is married and living in BP.<br /><br />It definitely looks like people don't know where to stop and it seems like it's even cool in some circles to tell your friends you have a crush on your sibling-in-law. I don't think anyone has any thoughts to take that further, but they think just talking about the possibility is juicy or whatever, but I think this must come from being too exposed, cause like there has to be limits.<br /><br />And this Yossi guy BTW does not seem fake. He so like also thought it was his imagination, so he was the first to admit that. But he said his wife and others totally picked up on it and now he has to face it. I would have maybe doubted him, but after hearing with my own ears a lady in my office totally gushing over how good-looking her brother-in-law is and how lucky his wife must be and she can only imagine... I tend to believe him. I think people have to be realistic even in their fantasies. Does that make sense?<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />12:19 AM <br /><br /><br />David said... <br />Of course it makes sense. Fantasies are very real..and the line between fantasy and reality can blur very fast..but it has to be incubated..it has to evolve..all the pieces have to fall together for something to actually happen, and that is very much in our control. Hey, I have some very beautiful sister in laws..but for something to happen between me and them..is so remote. That's the whole idea of Yichud..etc.. <br /><br />9:25 AM <br /><br /><br /> bleemy's blemishes said... <br />I say it is normal and healthy! I say frum people need tolighten up a bit! <br /><br />10:42 AM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />Elisheva, anon;<br />The lady sets the tone of the house. Thus, if she is happy, everyone is happy. Haven't you guys ever heard the saying if mama aint happy, aint nobody happy.<br />Also a man doesn't truly feel like a man unless he can satisfy his woman. Thia is how he affirms his manliness. A mature man understands this. <br /><br />11:59 AM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />.. a satisfied woman won't nag and will be more inclined to want to please the man. That's just how we're wired. <br /><br />12:02 PM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />Re; brother or sister in law-<br />An in-law is not a blood relative, therefore it may be improper to be attracted to them, but not weird or incestuous. And as David said, we don't always have to act on our impulses. <br /><br />12:08 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Shira22<br /><br />You have been reading to many goyisher books. A frum man doesn't affirm his manliness with your nonesense you got the wrong religion. Boy I woudn't want to be married to you, marriage is a two way street no-one sets the tone. in any case how would you know how a man thinks are you a male or female. For your information there is no such thing as a satisfied woman they are only satisfied temporary every couple of hours or days they need another thing maybe some of you ladies out there can learn a little mussar and try to be happy with what you have not with what you percieve you need. Shira how many pieces of jewerly do you have are you happy or do you want another and another one. Hope you have a happy shabbos if that is possible. <br /><br />1:45 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Anon above me, you sound very bitter. Did your wife not turn out like the slave you expected? <br /><br />2:45 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />anon above me, I guess you didn't read who I was responding to and no I am happily married 10+ and if you think as long as the man pleases his wife everything is dandy I pity you too. <br /><br />3:33 PM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />Dear anon who doesn't have the nerve to use a screen name,<br />YOU have the wrong religion. According to the protestant religion, a husband has certain rights to his wife. Thus ahe is obligated to accommodate him whether she enjoys it or not. Queen Victoria advised her daughter that she should just lie there and think of England on her wedding night. Basically, the mother told the daughter that this is an obligation to her husband, regardless of her feelings on the matter. She'll be compensated with an heir to the throne. Unfortunately, some of this mentality has spread to our religion. We use the threat of him looking or thinking of other women as a justification to turn yiddishe tochters into tramps who wear sleazy garments and act the part of the wanton for their husbands. His obligations to her are totally forgotten. That's just plain wrong. <br /><br />11:05 AM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />BTW, my kalla teacher told me that I am obligated to be available for him whenever he needs it. The idea of the lady being in the mood is goyish. She never mentioned anything about the mitzvah of oinor.....Sounds pretty protestant to me. <br /><br />11:11 AM <br /><br /><br />Semgirl said... <br />Shira, for someone with a dream job, wonderful husband and family, you still sound very bitter.. Feel like sharing.. <br /><br />1:14 PM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />BH I'm qutte content with my life...IYH by you. <br /><br />1:34 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Shira22 <br />what's your last name why are you better then me by saying your first name? How would you know what bochurim are taught something doesn't smell right. Did you ever go back to your kallah teacher and tell her she taught you wrong? I will repeat you are a stating a lie, no bochurim are taught not to be sensitive to their wives and not to make sure their wives are happy. It is an out and out lie. Stop saying lies. <br /><br />1:45 PM <br /><br /><br />Halfnutcase said... <br />while i don't know about the kalla and chosson teachers, i will vouch for essentialy everything shira is saying and I am a bochur, i have been to yeshiva, and have studied gemorah, shulchan aruch, and kitzur. shira is right on all counts.<br /><br />on a semi side note if this is what they are teaching the chossanim and kallos these days, i'm not suprised the divorce rate is through the roof. we've shed all the things built in to the frum lifestyle that protect us from it. <br /><br />4:32 PM <br /><br /><br />typically frum said... <br />you gotta post things more often. <br /><br />7:28 PM <br /><br /><br />turquoiseblue said... <br />Time for me to jump in here... my 2cents:<br /><br />Although most of the time when women get together in a fairly intimate setting they gravitate towards such "private" topics - most ladies with class will not go into detail! Yeah, they'll laugh along, and nod knowingly but they will NOT share their own private story. That's my experience.<br /><br />One-on-One is a different story. Still, those of us with a little self-respect will not "give up" all the juicy, private, intimate goings-on IN DETAIL in our life. <br /><br />Sure, when I first got married, all us really close newlywed friends would try to one-up each other... but that was, LIKE, SOOO immature and show-offy... and if I EVER said a little too much, I felt really, awful, and sorry, after that. AND it was really NOT in detail. <br /><br />To sum it up: General shmoozing between an intimate group is normal... the ones in the conversation sharing GRAPHIC DETAILS are either - a) Lying b) Lacking c)immature d)all of the above.<br /><br />But girl-talk? YEAH, that's normal.<br /><br />Juicy girl-talk at work? - with strangers or near-strangers within hearing distance? - JUST PLAIN WEIRD. And, all of the above. And, wrong. <br /><br />9:37 PM <br /><br /><br />turquoiseblue said... <br />regarding who has to please whom... are you kidding me? That is so the by-product of this "me-me" generation... <br /><br />Don't you realize that a good relationship is all about "what can I do to please the other"? BECAUSE a) you get to love the "other" more by giving and b) you get it all back, and then some!<br /><br />If you are going to be busy "But it SAYS that YOU are supposed to please ME!" you're so over. YOu'll never, ever, ever REALLY, TRULY be happy.<br /><br />Ya give, you get. <br /><br />Actually, if you give for the sake of getting, this formula doesn't work :) <br /><br />9:41 PM <br /><br /><br />turquoiseblue said... <br />But, there's something I agree with Shira (gasp!). Some kallah teachers can really, really, screw up marriages! Big Time! I know that happened to a friend of mine - who was VERY NAIVE and really found everything out about marriage from her teacher. So this teacher DECIDED, that a frum man needs it once a week. <br /><br />So naturally, this friend married a regular guy - who we all know doesn't work on the kallah teachers timetable... so she thought - oh my gosh, I must have married such a bum! And the marriage relationship in general starting spiraling downward...<br /><br />Long story short, it took LOTS OF counseling, and lots of heartache to patch up this DUMB, DUMB, DUMB, (did I say DUMB?) one sentence her kallah teacher told her... and the hundreds of other things she DID NOT tell her that could have had such a positive impact on her marriage.<br /><br />My kallah teacher guided me so perfectly (bh): Everything in the bedroom - between husband and wife - goes. (If its not against actual halacha...) <br /><br />So basically, my friends kallah teacher - by virtue of being her "halacha teacher"... insinuated that it's halacha to have intimate relations only once a week.<br /><br />Horrible. Terrible. Sin!<br /><br />What that has to do with this conversation? Have no idea. Just remember that one of the comments pushed this hot-button of mine. <br /><br />9:52 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Turquoiseblue<br /><br />Excellent posts as long as it isn't against halacha things get decided between husband and wife. Those are the true torah hashkafas not the dribble other people are posting. The same with your other post marriage is give, not receive. Hey half nutcase what rambam are you talking about, the one that says you have to treat your wife better than yourself stop lying none of those seforim agree with shira. <br /><br />10:55 PM <br /><br /><br /> CornyPorny said... <br />wow. you have a heated debate going on here! cool <br /><br />12:23 AM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />TB. Welcome back. As usual your comments are on the mark and I agree with everything, and you seem to grasp exactly what I was talking about.<br /><br />I was referring to gossip as you put it, I guess for thrills and to one-up the other also probably. DETAILS are usualy left out, but I guess I still found it a shock cause I was pretty sheltered all my life, but no, I never meant that anyone is giving detailed descriptions, but surley enough to make one curious single girl who is horny wonder...<br /><br />As you say TB, and as I have come to realize, I think it is an immaturity, but i guess lots of us are still not so mature. I think it is really like the usual sem talk, only now these girls are married and you'd think that the realization has to just hit you that it is time to grow up, but I guess it just hasn't. So maybe it's cause my office has lots of just or recently-married's.<br /><br />The only other thing is that there is that benifit that since we are all already so exposed today, maybe it isn't the worst thing to get the comparing with other frum girls and not with the goyish magazines. <br /><br />About the kallah classes, I guess I can't really comment. Obviously we are very messed up cause of all the outside influences, but we have to live with that fact and not deny it exists. And obviously a marriage is a two-way street, but more than that I can't comment. I can only say boy am I glad that it is supposed to be more than once a week! <br /><br />Also I actually agreed with Shira on one thing! About the brother-in-law thing, she put it down the way I was feeling about it, but couldn't find the words. She said, "An in-law is not a blood relative, therefore it may be improper to be attracted to them, but not weird or incestuous."<br /><br />Cause like it obviously was weird, but it bothered me how no one was acting like they would about a horrid incestuous thing, and I guess it bothered me that I didn't feel that way either. I guess maybe it is different, though like still not good.<br /><br />And finally, I really tried to minimize my teen-talk (sorry to all those who wrote me saying they thought it was cute)! But like I think I have this problem for years and since I started this blog, so what like got everyone going this time? But for the record, I totally always got teased about it, and yes, I realize the way I talk and write, and no, I don't mind the teasing, and yes, I do try to avoid it.<br /><br />OK, Whew. Shalom <br /><br />12:23 AM <br /><br /><br />turquoiseblue said... <br />hmmm... The brother-in-law issue is tricky. <br /><br />We're humans - so obviously these emotions are (like :) possible. But obviously - if they do start to surface - it's our job to extinguish those feelings. Not to let our mind toy around with such thoughts. <br /><br />And DEFINITELY not act in any which way upon them.<br /><br />I mean, just like any other situation where the opposite gender turns you on... (and you're married/engaged etc.) You just got to block out those emotions - and refocus on something else. Actually, you should have an "automatic firewall" in place -where it almost always blocks out such scenarios from developing in the first-place... <br /><br />And anyway - I can't imagine someone hating their sister so much, to flirt with her husband - or cheat on her chas v'shalom.<br /><br />But I can just see this scenario: Girl gets married - great looking guy. Has a baby, gains some weight. Tired. Busy. Unmarried sis-in-law sets eyes on hot brother-in-law. Flirts. In a weak moment... who knows...<br /><br />Well, sadly - I happen to know of a real-life scenario where a naive(?) sis-in-law was dragged into an affair by brother-in-law... originally - "talking to her - so she can help save bad relationship he had with her sister"... via IM's and emails and then in person... later it became "love"... etc... Oh, and sis-n-law (nice kid, looks like the perfect catch from the outside) gets engaged a few months into this... Only g-d knows what kind of marriage she has... <br /><br />When I found out about this "story" it really shook me up... in so many ways. And it got me thinking how true it is "not to believe in yourself till the day you die"... Be careful. Be careful. Be careful. <br /><br />12:53 AM <br /><br /><br /> Y.Y. said... <br />TB <br />you got a brain you make sense<br />i think you should become a kallah teacher or maybe a frum marriage counslor <br /><br />8:36 AM <br /><br /><br />Devorah said... <br />You have a real interesting blog here. I am married and in my twenties and I wish I had read some of this stuff before I got married.<br /><br />About the brother-in-law thing. I have to say that I donג€™t think itג€™s as bad as people make it sound here. A brother-in-law is not at all a real relative. You grow up with a relative so the feelings are anything but sexual. But your in-laws are thrown upon you.<br /><br />My brother-in-law is the nicest, most charming, most good looking guy. All girls and women are crazy about him (although he handles it very well, and I donג€™t know how.) He is not looking to flirt, he is pretty yeshivish, but a girl would have to be blind not to have a crush on him.<br /><br />He is my husbandג€™s sisterג€™s husband, so itג€™s not like even my husband grew up with him. So do I act on my feelings? Of course not. But they surely are there. (oh, Iג€™d die if he ever read this, but he has no internet, lol) <br /><br />8:51 AM <br /><br /><br />David said... <br />The bottom line. You can't put yourself in a situation where something can happen, where a weak moment can develop. I can have a crush on Charlize Theron from today to tomorrow there's no feasible way that anything is going to happen between us..<br />I think that's where the focus should be..on not being so intimate...<br /><br />D <br /><br />10:53 AM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />... how far does one go to avoid contact with the opposite gender? I was recently in New Square. The sidewalks were marked with signs. One side of the street for men and one side for ladies! There comes a point where this extreme segregation first causes more znus than it prevents because people are so sensitized.<br />David, I do see your point about Charlize Theron, but extreme gender segregation is not the answer. <br /><br />1:47 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />What could i say... from reading all the posts Shira22 is the most pathetic of all . Always complaining and pointing out what the men do wrong . She sounds like one who makes excuses for her self by focusing on all the things men do wrong, sorry 2 wrongs donג€™t make a right. Shira worry about your own "chiyuvim", instead of focusing so much on what the husband needs to do. Pheeww, you are so backward i donג€™t think it would be easy to straighten you. <br /><br />1:47 PM <br /><br /><br />David said... <br />I'm not advocating extremem segregation but common sense. How heimish couples are together...etc...<br /><br />D <br /><br />1:48 PM <br /><br /><br /> ClooJew said... <br />Well well well.<br /><br />Looks like Elisheva managed to hit yet another nerve ending.<br /><br />First, whereas women who do not read ladies magazines and therefore have very little information to go on in the way of "how to please your man" may benefit from discreet conversations with close friends, I can't possibly see, lulei demistafina, how a "frum woman's office scene" is the time or the place for such discussion.<br /><br />Nevermind the breach of privacy within the marriage, which is unfair to the husband, it is certainly not tzniusdik behavior and I highly doubt it will lead to an overall uptick in Shalom Bayis. There are books/classes/individuals to read/attend/talk to. Besides, who says Chayala the bookkeeper knows more about sex than the clueless kallah teacher menitoned above!<br /><br />I am confident that anyone posting here today would be stunned if they had a frank conversation about sex with a legitimate rav. They would be stunned by what he would say and stunned by how he would say it. I have heard many stories of bachurim coming back from their chassan shmooze, wide-eyed and slack-jawed, saying something like, "I never knew my rebbe could SAY such words!"<br /><br />Recently there was a discussion on the blogosphere about what was mutar (nearly everything) and what was assur (practically nothing) in the bedroom. People were quoting sefarim left and right--to the point that many of the women felt the whole discussion was so clinical as to be devoid of any sexuality! Precisely.<br /><br />This teaches three things: 1) the halachic, hashkafic and practical application about sex is out there. 2) Men with bushy beards and dusty fedoras, as well as temimusdikke women with snoods down to their pupiks, know quite a bit more about sex than you may think. And 3) It can be discussed in a way that doesn't get everyone all hot and bothered.<br /><br />As for the brother-in-law/sister-in-law fiasco, is anyone aware that the Talmud states that women are attracted to their sons-in-law, and for that reason certain halachic fences are built specifically for the in-laws? The BIL/SIL crush is very well-known, very natural, and very dangerous. How spreading stories about this one or that one benefits anybody is beyond me.<br /><br />Finally, to the moronymous posters (or should I say "posers") out there: Put a name to the comment or shut up. <br /><br />2:55 PM <br /><br /><br />Shmuel said... <br />Why, Devoraleh honey, I never knew you felt that way. You are so sweet.. <br /><br />3:46 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Cloojew<br /><br />Why do you feel you need a picture near your name for that matter why are all these sick pictures next to people's names. Also enough with your lelui lelui say what you want most times I agree but just say it. <br /><br />4:04 PM <br /><br /><br />ms. shtark said... <br />u know what i think? there are alot of ppl who really get a kick out of ticking each other off here on this blog. this whole dialogue has really got me rolling with all the ploni amonis! <br /><br />nehoo, i was just wondering what age these women are? it would totally not be the type if they were like:-) newlywed b.c they are usually 2 shy 2 talk abt it unless it is with their absolutely best friends and then they think they are a.giving us "unknowledgeables an education and b. reassuring us. even then still inappropriate! not that this makes a difference to this thread. <br />i guess if u make a connexion to your kalla teacher they can give u tips - i really dont know. <br /><br />but i was just wondering - i think that this whole issue being so open about one's sex life is just very in - sex pervades our everyday life wherever we go. naturally it was bound to somehow sneak into our everyday lives as frum jews b.c it is no longer so taboo. this is a reflection of our times (as is this blog as well) it is best to acknowledge that it is there and then to move on with life. <br />i also have this little inkling of a feeling that have of these women are very insecure and are just showing off that THEY are more loved and this is a boost to their self esteem to push up their self confidence. what better way to do that than with sex which is the main focus of todays society and everyone's obsession? i mean come on - does the daily shmooze really improve on ones sex life? just a hunch! <br /><br />5:44 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />CJ, welcome. As usual, your comments (like all your posts on your amazing blog) are so well put. I'm sorry if you didn't see any reason for my post, I guess it was on my mind, it is happening in my life and the truth is that origionally i really thought that maybe it is OK, and that it is a healthy way to pick up what we otherwise would not.<br /><br />It was not my sole intention to titilate, though I never pretend to be an angel and oh so mature, and yes, I have the same nisayon of going to these topics as any other human being. But still, I did wonder about how right or wrong it was. After all this, I think i am leaning toward that it really has little benifit and it is mostly immature. Ms. Shtark I think is also very right that it is just so in today and it is a way for a girl to show off how much she means to her husband. I mean today so many girls are lacking in self-esteem. Still it is not like totally public discussion, we are a close group, and there are no REAL specifics, so i don't think it is totally horrid, just probably more like, hey, we shouldn't go there.<br /><br />Also CJ, that is so interesting what you said about a gemara. Where is that? It is amazing how the gemara seems to know what we all deny. Like most of us here, and surely I always, thought this is because of today's goyish influence. I can't believe the gemara says this is a real nisayon and there are things to avoid because of it. In a way I feel better. So anyway, where is this gemara (not that I know how that will help me, lol) and what are those stuff you say the gemara said we should avoid because of it.<br /><br />Also, after loads of blushing I actually got the guts to somehow (in a VERY roundabout way) bring the topic of are chosson/kallah classes good enough with a Kollel guy whom I very respect. He said the chosson classes are way better than people make it out to be, but that he hears real scary stuff about tonz of girls who didn't hear what they should have from their kallah teachers. He even like hinted that IY"H when the time comes I shouldn't just go to anyone and that there are some teachers I definitely should NOT go to.<br /><br />So maybe as usual we are on the losing part of the bargain here.<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />6:47 PM <br /><br /><br />turquoiseblue said... <br />Elisheva - (hope you wont' mind me being blunt here...) but are you really serious when you say that you ask such private questions from a KOLLEL guy (other than a brother?) Dont'cha think that is a leeettle iffy... questionable... inappropriate... to say the least... <br /><br />10:09 PM <br /><br /><br />turquoiseblue said... <br />Elisheva - by the way I was standing next to some teenage girls in Lakewood today... and they were LIKE, so, LIKE, talking, LIKE... that I just stood there grinning to myself... and wondering if one of them were YOU! <br /><br />10:15 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />OMG! TB, were you the one with the plaid skirt and brown tights and shortish shaitel?? Just kidding! Though you never can know. It is funny cause I totally sometimes wonder if people I see in the street could be a person I know from the blog.<br /><br />The Kollel guy is someone who is very close to the family of a close friend of mine and so like I got to know him too. He is very frum and like I heard he is big stuff in the yeshiva, like he talks to people alot. My brother says alot of people talk to him, so it isn't like I am going just to anybody. He is like the total opposite of me and like all of us who are immature. He is very mature about stuff and is very approachable about anything. <br /><br />My friend started talking to him about a few things last year and I also sometimes bring up hashkafa/personal things that I am wondering about or are bothering me. Even so, I didn't ask anything direct. Just he always has his eye out for me for shidduchim (he says - I hope he really does) so it comes up like would I want this or that or whatever, and the topic came up of open-minded vs. closed-minded and how much is open and how much is closed etc.<br /><br />So in this way I mentioned that like let's say there would be things, like really personal things I needed to know after I got married, would a guy like he was talking aobut understand. And he said that most bachurim are way more open about personal things than people realize, just it is something never brought up, so like how should anyone think they know these things.<br /><br />Anyway, so that's how it came up, and I saw my opportunity and brought it up and he ended up saying that a guy will hear things before he gets married in a shmooze and he said though that I shouldn't take for granted, because he heard too many stories that girls don't get good hadracha (which I heard from friends too) so I should be careful when the time comes IY"H.<br /><br />I couldn't mention the blog because he'd kill me. He is very against the internet, and I can't say I don't see his point. He thinks I am this aidel maidel Bais Yaakov girl and I am embarassed to admit my deeper stuff, though I think he has heard such things before and would totally understand. Still I am in real life a very private person and have a hard time like really opening up.<br /><br />Whew. That was long. Guess I had stuff to get off my chest.<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />11:09 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Hi <br /><br />Sent you some e mails<br /><br />Y <br /><br />10:24 AM <br /><br /><br />David said... <br />Elisheva,<br />Oh my. All this in my shtetela Lakewood?<br /><br />D <br /><br />11:16 AM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />David, what are you refering too?<br /><br />And Anon, I don't know who you are obviously, but I have not recieved any e-mails from anyone I don't know.<br /><br />Also like a good idea. Even if you want to be anonymous, meybe like at least make up a name so we could like use it for reference.<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />2:55 PM <br /><br /><br />Semgirl said... <br />Speaking of email !!! (cough, cough) .. <br /><br />3:09 PM <br /><br /><br /> AbleVaybel said... <br />Hi Elisheva!<br /><br />I enjoyed your post about office chat and the many responses. For myself, I've always been uncomfortable knowing anything really private about my workmate's family life, as it were. How awful, should one chance to meet the fellow, to have the the first image being how he likes to "get his thing done". Oy! That said, it's hard to change the topic sometimes without being cut out of the general chat and banter. Halachically, it's a slam dunk - it doesn't improve your middos, is a bitl zman, etc. But that social negotiation thing is really hard.<br /><br />As for learning things in the kallah/chosson class, I haven't heard too much good about them, even in my further flung necks of the wood. I've always found the best route to go is a discreet, trustworthy older woman.<br />Or just a good copy of "Our Bodies Ourselves". <br /><br />4:51 PM <br /><br /><br />David said... <br />Elisheva..<br />All this sex talk. I don't know..I seem to miss everything..lol<br />D <br /><br />5:08 PM <br /><br /><br />devorah said... <br />Shmuel, the scary part is that in a way I so want that too happen, but I know my brother-in-law doesn't go online.<br /><br />Let me tell everybody here that in general kallah classes are terribly inadequate. I know about Monsey and Lakewood personally, and I haven't heard any better about Brooklyn. My husband was a big help. It seems the boys do have the better end of the deal... <br /><br />6:36 PM <br /><br /><br /> ClooJew said... <br />It seems the boys do have the better end of the deal...<br /><br />Yes, indeed, lulei demistafina, it does. I believe that the root of the problem is that the aidel BY student becomes the inflexible BY teacher and the movement perpetuates itself exponentially.<br /><br />For men, on the other hand, sefarim hold more sway than people. Including rabe'im. Gedolim aside, if somebody says something, he better be able to back it up.<br /><br />I've said this several times: In the girls schools, the ones who ask the most questions are the troublemakers. In the boys schools, the ones who ask the most questions are the superstars. That thars the problem.<br /><br />And the result is, as Elisheva eloquently puts it, "It is amazing how the gemara seems to know what we all deny."<br /><br />"We all" being more women than men. <br /><br />6:49 PM <br /><br /><br />tuesdaywishes said... <br />I had a pretty good Kallah teacher and her husband taught a chassan's class at the same time. My teacher also ran out of time to finish her curriculum, so she said we should each call her, after our weddings, and she'd fill us in on the childbirth and nursing stuff she hadn't covered. When i called her, she actually gave me more of a "checkup" to make sure that we were doing okay, getting used to each other and to being intimate. I don't know how many teachers do that, but probably more should. <br /><br />10:31 PM <br /><br /><br />Elster said... <br />Cloo:<br /><br />You certainlky put on a lot of weight for your new film, Syriana. Have you managed to get it off yet? <br /><br />As for this thread. I really don't know what to add. I went to a chosson class that was simply clinical - what was ok what was halachically questionable. There was no advice, no suggestions, etc. Same for my wife, who went to a class given by her local orthodox rebbitzen. <br /><br />In the end, the problem becomes worse when you have a girl/guy with no knowledge of what to expect or what to do. THEn you really need a good teacher. <br /><br />1:11 PM <br /><br /><br /> ClooJew said... <br />Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. Did you see me on Letterman Monday night? I looked fabulous! <br /><br />1:35 PM <br /><br /><br />David said... <br />My Chosson teacher didn't tell me a thing about sex. Simply Halacha.<br />Is that strange? My parents didn't either educate me much..well except for the videos I once found in their closet..but that's a different story for a different day..lol<br />D <br /><br />2:25 PM <br /><br /><br />nobody28 said... <br />I wasn't told anything either - but my parents were never very strict about the books I read. I was reading pretty "dirty" stuff at age 13 - I guess that's where I was educated. <br /><br />2:37 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />Nobody28, it's very interesting you say that, becase though I never would find such books in my house, I have a cousin who's mother was much more chilled and like we read stuff I can only say are almost pornographic. I think I totally picked up loads of stuff aidel Bais Yakov girls like me should never know.<br /><br />I only wonder if this will help or hurt me when I am IY"H married. Also I once told this to a freind thinking that in not such strict frum circles this was normal and even wondering why they let us girls read these books, and she sounded shocked that people do. But I see you have had a similar experience so I guess it does happen.<br /><br />I still wonder why these parents don't have a problem with their girls reading these books. Or is it really OK? In this one aspect I think my more "frummer" parents may be right to not allow us.<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />2:50 PM <br /><br /><br />nobody28 said... <br />My sister in law always asked my parents how they let me read those books - but they let me read it anyway. It is a little weird.<br /><br />Will it help or harm you? I don't think it really harmed me. Maybe just expecting things to be more "fairytale" like - but on a whole, I think I'm OK. <br /><br />2:58 PM <br /><br /><br />Curious Jew said... <br />Not to be too blunt, but a chosson/kallah teacher should be giving the halachic basics of oral sex.<br /><br />As if the kids getting married weren't already thinking about it... <br /><br />9:44 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Curious jew said<br /><br />The halachic basics are it is not permitted no if and or buts. How long does that take? <br /><br />10:57 PM <br /><br /><br /> Josh said... <br />Elisheva, <br /><br />As far as these books go, this could be a whole new post unto itself. Obviously, it depends on what kind of books we are talking about. But different segments of the orthodox community will take different approaches to allowing or forbidding outside influences. I think as long as a family is consistent, the kids can be safe. If parents teach the kid that all is assur, than a kid exploring things out there can be a dangerous chink in their armor. And a more permissive environment can only work when the rights/wrongs and limits are openly addressed.<br /><br />I can't say which is better. But in a world where everyone is forced to respond to outside influences, we have to be open and honest about the ordeals and reality we face. <br /><br />11:11 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />Josh, you are right. This should totally be it's own post. I should have thought to do that. <br /><br />As far as your point, I understand and agree their are different degrees, but I am referring to books I wonder why it is in anyone's "allowed" category. I don't want to get into specifics here (though the last few comments before yours are like titilating enough), but I mean stuff which... oh how should I put it... you know, like, novels that straight out have romance or love or lust and how it is acted upon, not just the general idea.<br /><br />These are considered regular goyish novels by some people, like no big deal, and I can't imagine why. But maybe it's my upbringing still blinding me.<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />11:55 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Elisheve<br /><br />wrong word it should be holding me not blinding me. <br /><br />1:16 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />Actually holding connotes that I know something is okay but am like being held back. Blinding means I can't even see if something is okay or not because something is stopping me from seeing that.<br /><br />So if reading such books would be okay, I can't see why, so I am blinded. It's not like I think it's okay but am holding myself back. Whatever. <br /><br />2:49 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Understood thank you <br /><br />4:15 PM <br /><br /><br />Me said... <br />When I was at a religious all girls' school, there was one frum girl in my class who read "those" types of books - Mills and Boon etc - constantly. I couldn't understand it. Her family were really strict, yet that is all she read (without their knowledge). In contrast, my family were fairly liberal in comparison - ie, I was allowed to read whatever I wanted to, secular etc - but I wouldn't dream of touching the books she did.<br />I think it's a product of a restricted upbringing - if you are forbidden totally from doing something, you have more desire to do it. Whereas if it is allowed with guidelines, there's no need to "rebel" and do something you know isn't right. <br /><br />11:08 PM <br /><br /><br />nobody28 said... <br />I was reading Sydney Sheldon novels at age 13 - with my parents knowledge. We are considered pretty frum - yeshivish, black hat, whatever you want to call it. I wasn't rebeling and doing it - I was allowed and still wanted to do it. <br /><br />8:01 AM <br /><br /><br /> ClooJew said... <br />"I think it's a product of a restricted upbringing "--Me<br /><br />I disagree. The fact is, lulei demistafina, that kids with a more liberal upbringing end up engaging in more non-halchic behavior, ON AVERAGE, than the kids who grow up sheltered. The fact that a minority of kids from the chasidish/yeshivish world "explodes" into bad behavior is no reason to encourage the bad behavior to start with.<br /><br />I wonder: If we tell kids that they may not under any circumstances read Shakespeare, will they all suddenly put down their gameboys, shut off their i-pods, and run to the library to find a copy of Macbeth?<br /><br />There is a world of difference between permitting children to read the classics, or even thrillers (Michael Crichton, Stephen King) or whodunits (Robert Parker, Faye Kellerman), and allowing kids to read crap like Sidney Sheldon and Judy Blume, whose books have no literary value and only serve to titillate. <br /><br />11:17 AM <br /><br /><br />Curious Jew said... <br />"The halachic basics are it is not permitted no if and or buts."--anonymous<br /><br />Based on your ignorance of even rudimentary halachah in this instance, I can only assume you are a girl with a BY education, who never bothered to ask a question. <br /><br />11:20 AM <br /><br /><br />Semgirl said... <br />Curious :<br /><br />Darchecha Darchei Noam...<br /><br />The halacha is clear. Devorim b'Nahash Nishmoyim.. Speak pleasantly, and respectfully. Especially to women. No ifs and buts.<br /><br />I can only assume you are an obnoxious creepy bochur, who doesnt believe in Bain Odom L'chaveiro or how to behave around women.. <br /><br />2:19 PM <br /><br /><br />Curious Jew said... <br />Ouch!<br /><br />I apologize. Your mussar is deserved and accepted.<br /><br />My point is that the Anon above is 100% wrong and so convinced that he/she is right that he/she clearly never asked a shaila or even saw the relevant Gemaras or Shulchan Aruch.<br /><br />But it was wrong to phrase it that way. <br /><br />2:54 PM <br /><br /><br />RuchniGashmi said... <br />Sem Girl,<br />I have been reading the posts on this blog and the responses and would like to know what your readers would think about my latest post.http://ruchnigashmi.blogspot.com/2005/11/newly-marrieds.html <br /><br />6:14 PM <br /><br /><br />David said... <br />Sem..<br />Your discussions are like the energizer bunny. They keep going and going and going....lol<br />However one topic leads to another..and all so important..<br /><br />"me"..I think the "restriction culture" that we set up is vital to creating Gedolim...and leaders. We have to protect our kids at least until their old enough to make their own choices. <br /><br />D <br /><br />10:24 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Curious Jew<br /><br />So can you post those relevant sources gemorahs etc that prove you are right? <br /><br />10:34 PM <br /><br /><br />Halfnutcase said... <br />personaly i feel that someone who has never seen or known a questionable situation and had the oppertunity to test their emuna and devotion to hashem in such a manner, can and will never ever reach the status of a gadol. the gedolei hador, are not like somepeople think those who are removed from the problems of the age, but those who are intimately familiar with many such problems, and know how to advise people out of such issues.<br /><br />it has been taught in our tradition not to judge someone untill you've stood in their shoes, and this is percisely what the gedolim at times have to do, and what makes them gedolim is that they can find a relevancy with which to understand a problem in their own life, and by preventing people from having the opertunity to sactify hashems name, you actualy stop them from having such rellevencies (not saying that they've done the kinds of things wrong others had but, that they do have to have some kind of peralell that they can compare it too)<br /><br />just my two cents.<br /><br />(btw about the issue of oral... i don't really know anything about how it's practiced but i do know that it's a little complicated but comes out to that if it's what the girl wants, the boy can do for her what ever, if it's what the boy wants and she's willing to go along with it there are more restrictions but not total restrictions. to find the details you'll probably have to look in the even ha'ezer which admitedly i only study those sections relevant to unmarried people at this point so i'm not totaly sure. but this is what it seems to be from what i do know. again just some worthless cents) <br /><br />10:41 AM <br /><br /><br />Curious Jew said... <br />HNC,<br /><br />Stop berating yourself!<br /><br />You are one of the few ppl here who knows what he's talking about!<br /><br />You write: "the gedolei hador, are not like some people think those who are removed from the problems of the age, but those who are intimately familiar with many such problems, and know how to advise people out of such issues."<br /><br />YESSSS! <br /><br />12:37 PM <br /><br /><br />David said... <br />There are different kinds of gedolim. I'm referring to the kedoshim..like the previous Belzer Rebbe and other like him that would never become what they became without being shletered. I had a roommate in Yeshiva..that grew up really sheltered and was so incredible in his Shemiras Einayim and holiness...<br />D <br /><br />1:19 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Curious jew<br /><br />I am still waiting for your sources or is the problem that you can't reference them. You stated a halacha can you prove it? <br /><br />1:58 PM <br /><br /><br />A Lakewwod Yeed said... <br />Re Oral:<br /><br />I personally asked a dayan in Monsey, and several Rabbonim in Lakewood, and they told me that if it benefits your Shalom Bayis, it is definitely Mutar. <br /><br />Important provisal :<br /><br />a) It is not at a time you are specifically trying to conceive, because of the Gam' in Nedarim, and Siman 240 in Aruch chaim, about effect this has on the child.<br /><br />b) She wants it, your Cavonna is to please her, and not satisfy your own Taivos.<br /><br />HOWEVER, ask your own Rov. Each situation is different.. <br /><br />4:07 PM <br /><br /><br /> FrumGirl said... <br />My personal opinion is... it is disrespectful to your spouse to discuss such intimate details of your life in such a blase way. I feel that anyone who has this need to advertise must be going through some issues. If you wouldn't want your spouse to discuss such stuff with thier coworkers, then don't discuss it with yours. Can't it just be shared between you and yours? Why the need for attention? What can you possibly learn from hearing about such stuff from others? Life is a learning experience... to grow from. Don't rely on other peoples accounts in order to learn. I find it ironic that I seem more prudish comeing from a more modern stance, than some of you... what does this teach us? <br /><br />10:00 AM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Elisheva about the books I could tell you it does more harm then helps. My wife read a lot of these books and it brings the girl to fantasize that life is going to be perfect and same would be for the sex life. Reality generally is not like in the books woman enjoy reading.... (obviously same goes for men looking at pornographic materials) but the book definitely affect woman in a bad way. When you get married you will see how these beautiful fantasies are a far cry from real life. <br /><br />12:21 PM <br /><br /><br />nobody28 said... <br />frum - I don't think it "teaches" us anything. I am just as prudeish as you - and I'm not modern. <br /><br />12:22 PM <br /><br /><br />Elisheva said... <br />I am totally not going to comment on the whole oral thing. Puhleeze!<br /><br />About the books, I agree with CJ and I know from personal experience that it is much worse among those families that totally allow the kids to read all this stuff, and I mean the titillating stuff, not serious novels.<br /><br />True there are rebels byt eh more strict families too, but in general, like my own personal life, though i have the nisayon to read them when I can, and I admit I do at times, it ends up much more limited and I am not going to out and out rebel just to read these books. It's like a nisayon when i can, but I'm not going off just to do it.<br /><br />And Nobody, for a married lady in lakewood, you sound too normal. Most of the ones i know are like either the shallow babies who you can't believe are married, like comapring and trying to out-dress and out-do each other, or like these real frum ladies sacrificng all day for their kollel husbands with zero life left. I'd lve to have my husband learn, but does that have to mean I ahve no life or I am a clone trying to be just like everyone else?<br /><br />Shalom <br /><br />3:37 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Hi elisheva of course you should not comment on oral... after all you have never experienced it <br /><br />3:52 PM <br /><br /><br />Chaim said... <br />Let me tell you about ladies yakking about these things to each other even in private. My wife is from a real yeshivish home and is completely frum as far as I ever knew. She dressed always tzniusdik and was what I always thought was the perfect normal frum girl.<br /><br />Now we live in a complex and she is getting to know the other ladies, all frum and everything like her, and i was happy first. Look, she is friendly and it's nice to get to know all the neighbors.<br /><br />So one night I come home from yeshiva and she is putting around the kitchen without a skirt! Just in her tights! And she is like nonchalant as if everything is regular. I say hello, and stop short and blurt out, what's this?<br /><br />She giggles and says, Oh, Shani says it drives her husband nuts when she does this. Listen I am a man and I won't say I didn't like it, but it was something that was not at all needed or called for and what wasn't in our home before, but I let it go.<br /><br />From there it's all downhill. Chavi rubs her husband "here", Dina wears sheer bras, you get my drift. The worst thing is that two things have happened now. Besides what I feel is a lower level of kedusha in our home, now when I am with my wife and she does these things I can't help picture the ladies she tells me told her about this specific thing. And even though we had no problems until now, obviously now i find myself more and more trying not to think about other ladies, who I admit are very pretty once you look at them in this way.<br /><br />Also when I see these ladies, you can imagine what I'm thinking. Dina comes over to borrow some sugar, and I'm wondering which one of her bras she is wearing that I heard so much about.<br /><br />I thought we had a major problem on our hands, but the worst thing is when I told my Rov, he tells me this is spreading like crazy among young frum couples. It has become "Cool" to show off in this way! Ladies you have no idea how bad it is for the husbands. If it is because you lack something from us, bring it up, don't do it this way. <br /><br />6:35 PM <br /><br /><br />Anonymous said... <br />Chaim and then you woke up... :) <br /><br />6:50 PM <br /><br /><br />chana said... <br />Its lose-lose, when we don't do anything, everyone is screaming thats why there are so many guys on Craigs list. When we do, there are still complaints. <br /><br />8:44 PM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />Chiam, I couldn't have said it better myself!!!Jewish women don't have to descend to the level of shiksas to make their husbands want them. Your wife doesn't realize how lucky she is!!! I admire and respect you.<br />These young kallahs are only cheapening themselves in their own eyes and in the eyes of their husbands. One doesn't combat the shmutz of the outside world by offering the husband more of the same in his own home! <br /><br />8:57 PM <br /><br /><br />shira22 said... <br />It's not the wife's fault that the husband is on craigs list. It's the fault of an overly gender- segregated society. The same guys who can't say good shabbos to their neighbors wife and try to avoid women in general are the most likely candidates for craigs list. Besides, the husband is supposedly an adult and responsible for his own behavior. The wife has no control over her husbands tyvahs. <br /><br />9:03 PM <br /><br /><br />shira22