Wednesday, September 24, 2008

Comments on Shana Tova

Chaim said...
Hi Welcome back! So happy I was before semgirl!!!

9/18/2006 4:45 PM
Elisheva said...
Thanx Chaim. Let me just say that SG is 'First" in many ways, no matter what!

9/18/2006 5:09 PM
Anonymous said...
Ok I'm 3rd (p.s. I just got your email).

Shana tova to you too.. And I hope all will be well with you.

9/18/2006 5:11 PM
Chaim said...
I guess you are right! Hope everything is truly ok!

9/18/2006 6:43 PM
ms. shtark said...

9/18/2006 9:26 PM
Semgirl said...
Strange thing.. I was just going to write you 2 hours ago. And said, nah wait till tommorrow. Glad to see you are back. I have missed you so much.. May the new year bring you only Nachas, Brocha, and Simcha...

9/19/2006 12:52 AM
Y.Y. said...
thnx for showing me that i am right on!

9/19/2006 5:01 AM
Halfnutcase said...
welcome back shev, i hope everything gets better.

9/19/2006 5:31 PM
Scraps said...
Welcome back. Yehi ratzon she'tihiyeh lach shana tovah u'metukah--may this coming year be full of things that are sweet, so that you can see and acknowledge and understand the good in them.

9/22/2006 12:44 PM
Pragmatician said...
i'm so sorry you had such a rough time.
B'H you had someone by your side.

9/25/2006 10:19 AM
David_on_the_Lake said...
Thats what marriage is all about...

Just want to wish you and ur family a wonder ful..wonderful year..Your blog is ..I think the first one..or one of them that I encountered and it encouraged me to start my own..(has it been a year?..)


9/27/2006 11:21 AM
Elisheva said...
You are all very kind. Your wishes are so appreciated. I really hope to get back to posting after succos.

David, I didn't realize I was your first (lol). You changed your sn, didn't you?

Best wishes to all of you for a good year and an easy fast and a lovely succos!

9/28/2006 2:53 PM
ClooJew said...
Whatever it was, I hope it's over and you grow from the experience.

May you be blessed with a year of all good things.

10/03/2006 12:07 PM
Mata Hari said...
Hi Elisheva. Very menshy of you to explain your absence - and yet you were able to maintain your privacy.
I wish you good mazel and happiness in the year to come.

10/03/2006 10:13 PM
Josh said...
Elisheva - Hope everything is going well for you. You are so great at learning from everybody and every situation. May you and your Chosson always learn together, and find the goodness in everything. And share it with us!

10/09/2006 11:56 PM
Lvnsm27 said...
Wow you're back

shana tova

10/10/2006 6:10 PM
Elisheva said...
CJ!!! Josh! You are all too kind.

Josh, I did check your blog for a second, and as ususal, it makes me regret not visiting all the time, but I have not been into stuff too much the last few months. So you are our neighbor now (in NJ)? Did I get that right? Hope you are liking it.

CJ, I keep meaning to e-mail you, but keep putting it off (as usual....)

Mati, thanx. I was trying to do that, and it's nice to know that you noticed. Though, actually, I was thinking over Yom Tov of coming clean so to speak, as in writing about it. It may be good for me, and maybe others, to discuss, but I don't want it to turn into a Wallowing-in-Self-Pity Anonymous...

Ivn, best wishes...

BTW (or not so BTW) I am posting this from Israel!!! We went like totally last minute for Yom Tov, and it's been awesome! Sorry to all those who feel I should have let you know. You are so right, I should have. I meant to, but didn't end up at work with my comp, so I couldn't and then we were off. Now I am by a comp in Israel and on. So cool. Let this be a personal hello to everyone.

Israel is amazing, as usual, lol! So different than experiencing it in sem. Loads to tell you all. Later.

Moadim Leshimcha, Gut Yom Tov and Shalom

10/12/2006 11:31 AM
Semgirl said...
Havent heard from you in a while.. A Gittin Kvittl...

10/13/2006 1:39 PM
Josh said...

So good to hear from you. I hope Sukkos in Israel was amazing. It's been two years since I've been, and there is nothing like it. We want to hear about it (but we understand that you're a buys veib now).

I really am your neighbor! I'm trying to visit Lakewood - I've heard so much about it. As soon as I can make a connection, I hope to go for Shabbos and see BMG. I can't wait to see what everybody's been talking about. I'll be sure to report in when I do!

10/16/2006 4:48 PM
ms. shtark said...
lucky you!!!!!! hope u had a great time!

10/16/2006 10:41 PM
nuch a chosid said...
keep strong, don't let it slip, tough times pass, there are better ones ahead of you!! always

10/27/2006 3:12 PM
Y.Y. said...

11/03/2006 2:20 PM
Elisheva said...

You wish!


11/07/2006 4:53 PM
nuch a chosid said...
Time for a new post, Elishev. in the meen time u may chek out mo blog,

11/09/2006 2:14 PM
Independent Frum Thinker said...
Please check out the new blog. Thank you.

11/15/2006 11:16 PM
Y.Y. said...

12/11/2006 3:52 PM
Anonymous said...
A freilechen chanuka to one and all.

12/14/2006 1:29 PM
Anonymous said...
hmmm... do i smell a divorce?

12/18/2006 8:25 PM
Anonymous said...
I smelll a marriage too happy to be bothered by the petty blog world.

12/19/2006 12:34 PM
Halfnutcase said...
Anonymous, G-d forbid, we all wish elisheva many many happy years of marriage with her husband, he besheret.

More than likely she's just having trouble finding time on the internet, as is kind of an illicit activity in lakewood.

12/19/2006 7:39 PM
Anonymous said...

1/08/2007 2:26 PM
Elisheva said...
you people are hysterical...

Anon before HNC, yes B"H, I guess you are right. I keep meaning to post, but so little time, and I guess my blog is not in my life what it used to be. But I'd hate to shut it, and keep thinking one day I will still post something. I still have like loads of thoughts, just so little time to write them up...

KIT everyone,


1/08/2007 3:44 PM
Zadok said...
MAZEL TOV Elisheva!!! I'm happy to see on semegirls blog that you had a child.Mazel tov.

8/23/2007 1:28 PM
LakewoodShmuck said...
a year since your last post. some of us are still awaiting your return

11/01/2007 10:35 PM
Goldwasser Story said...
hey it's about time you put a new post or I'll never come back here

4/30/2008 8:01 PM

Comments on Are We Wives Trophies?

Semgirl said...
cool...let me grab the #1 spot before reading it.

7/17/2006 4:49 PM
Semgirl said...
I think it's very wrong for husbands to show off their wives. Afterall, we are people not possessions. As a wise person once said to me...if you have a wallet full of money do you show that off too?
Don't worry, I'm still formulating more thoughts on this...

7/17/2006 5:02 PM
Anonymous said...
poor girls

7/17/2006 7:03 PM
Chillin in The Lake said...
Now I see what you have been up to? lol

7/17/2006 7:18 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i think it's childish and very wrong. On some level i can't even understand why someone would treat his wife like a thing like that. I think it's horrible and degrading.

i think i would be deeply bothered if my wife where to dress non-tzniusly. i can't relate to someone using his wife like a trophy. she's a person for crying out loud! Love her, care for her, and by all means, PLEASE treat her with respect!

sorry i'm not being helpfull in this thread, i'm just to shocked at girls being treated so wontonly to even have anything intelligable to add.

7/17/2006 10:08 PM
wearywife said...
It's better for us to not be overly obsessed with how we dress. Let's just be comfortable and attractive at all times for ourselves.

7/17/2006 11:34 PM
Anonymous said...

You have a very special and wonderful husband who appreciates and values your femininity. There are husbands who want their wives to show off and women (like the married girl you mention at the end) who want to show off. It's terrible! Your beauty is not, chalila, to turn the heads of the bochrim. There's only one man you need to attract, and he's obviously proud, and that's in the privacy of your new home.

Your husband has a much better idea than you do about what turns a man's eye in the wrong way... because he's a man. It's just the way it is. It's good that you value and appreciate his advice about what to wear outside.

It looks like you two are already well on the way to building a true Bayis Ne'eman BeYisrael. May we hear more good news from you soon!

7/18/2006 2:33 AM
Pragmatician said...
I can't speak for the women, but as husband I am always insisting my wife make an effort to appear tsnisudik whenever we go out.
Yet it's undeniable that a husband wants to feel a sensation of pride(not haughtiness) about his wife.
When we go to a Simche and all the aunts compliment her (and me) on how she looks it's actually promoting a healthy Shalom Bayis.(very important!!)
The fact is that a wife who makes her husband feel good increases his love for her.
Therefore I think it's healthy for women to make an effort to look good for her husband in company, but I frown upon flaunting anything.
A women can be beautiful and remain friendly and inconspicuous, one doesn't exclude the other at all.

7/18/2006 7:01 AM
Shimshy said...
All the condemnation.... let's get real. IDEALY it is not a good thing. We all know that. But this is not an ideal world, so let's cut the garbage.
Frum ladies dress to kill whenever they go out. Why? Beats me. But they are attracting the looks of every single guy. So my wife has to be the one not to and have me be provoked by every other lady? Dressing to the nines at home for supper, what a joke! When I am outside and see your wife with a face full of make-up, lip-stick, perfume, tight skirt showing off her ass and panties and t-shirt so tight it shows off her boobs, bra, and sometimes even her nipples, nature isn't waiting for supper that night. By then I have been seeing your wife in my mind for hours. So if my wife dresses half like that, don't complain.
Am I showing her off? No. Just a self-defensive measure. And between me and you, you all like and wish I would show her off more. Before you all act so holy, where exactly are your eyes going every time my wife is near? She said it a couple of times. She knows she shouldn't show off, but with so many admiring eyes every time she's anywhere, it makes it kinda hard not to want the thrill of flaunting it.
When you fix your world up, I will make sure my wife is a frummy neb outside.

7/18/2006 9:13 AM
Y.Y. said...
of course men like to show off thier lovely women
women are sex dolls thats it!

7/18/2006 10:13 AM
Scraps said...
Elisheva, your husband has his priorities in the right place. Unfortunately, a lot of guys don't, and they just want to show off their eye candy to make the other guys jealous.

It always bothered me that there seems to be such a double standard in some areas, that before marriage a girl has to dress a certain way (not wear denim, not wear skirts that are too short, not wear anything too low or too tight, etc) and then as soon as sheva brachos are over, all that goes out the door. I always blamed it on the girls themselves, but it sounds like their husbands should also take a large measure of the blame.

7/18/2006 11:24 AM
Limey2001 said...
"A lot of s admit their husbands like them to dress up nicely, and they always thought that the husbands just wanted them to look good. But now some are saying, does he want me to look good for him, or is it to like show off to his friends?"

Its like just when you dress your kids also, who are you dressing them up for?
These days if your not dressed to kill you look like a neb and thats an EMBARRASSMENT! its like a guy walking around with his shirt untucked tzizis flying etc.
there is no preceived middle ground (IMHO)
Its not just to show off its a status symbol!
As for semgirls comment "As a wise person once said to me...if you have a wallet full of money do you show that off too?" uh YES they do! of course they do the car and house etc...

7/18/2006 11:49 AM
wearywife said...
I dress to make myself feel comfortable and presentable. I'm refuse to stress over who does or doesn't like it. Afterall, there's nothing more attractive than a woman who's happy with herself. Believe me, it shows and it's the best make up there is.

7/18/2006 12:13 PM
Elisheva said...
Hi everyone. Nice to be back commenting on a new post finally.

SG - I agree obviously that we should not be used, but I also agree with Limey about that it is sad, but people DO show off their money quite a lot. I would hope a wife should be something more special and private than money.

Chillin, while I wait for e-mails, I think of other smart stuff I read in other e-mails, lol!

HNC, it's nice that some guys do have the sensitivity...

WW - I partially agree. We shouldn't over-obsess, but we can't say I am just too busy with myself to care about others. We have to be aware and care. I don't believe in being selfish. If it takes a little of our time and effort, then that's like what makes us human.

Anon, Very well put, and I take all the compliments about my husband, lol! It is true I got someone special, and I totally did not deserve it, so I must thank Hashem for saving me from myself. I just feel bad for my husband... I was lucky to get him, but what did he do to have to end up with a girl like me? lol!

Prag, I missed your intellignet remarks. It is nice that there are so many like you who DO have the sensitivity, but you also raise a good point and maybe that is like the whole crux of the issue. How much is okay and flatters the husband like you say with compliments you get about your wife, and how much is too much and just causes problems and is just cheapening us wives? I guess you just have to use your common sense as usual, which like isn't too easy or common anymore....

Shimshy, you have an attitude, but the truth is, I have to admit I don't totally have an answer for you, which I mentioned in my post. This DID bother me, like I don't want to cheapen myself or want my husband to make me a cheap show-off thing, but I DO want to keep his eyes on me and it IS pretty crazy the way it's got with how a lot of us dress, I admit. Still, I just think there has to be a better way than continuing the downward spiral.

YY, So succint and subtle, as usual... lol

Scraps, thanx, and you are so right about the double standard. When we are married and finally should be better off and for each other, suddenly we are going all out in this crazy show off competition...

Limey, you raise a point similar to Prag's. So must we cheapen ourselves and flaunt to all your friends just so they don't think you married a neb? I mean this seriously. I understand how it is for a guy (okay, not everything, but I do understand somewhat), so what is the solution?


7/18/2006 2:59 PM
Bocher's Dreams said...
It is true, some guys have a tayva to flaunt their wives and some wives love to flaunt what they got too.

I was just in a local store and a saleslady was wearing a skirt where I saw her pantylines right through. Then she bends over and I see the top of her nude pantyhose and her panties! She is at work, so her husband is not even going to see her until she gets home! Who is she doing this for? To flaunt what she has. (And she sure has a nice ass...)

This past Shabbos I ate at a friends. I am sure hundreds of bachurim know exactly what I am talking about when I say that the wife's robe was so tight, I saw every detail of her lace bra through the slinky material. There was not another woman around, so she wasn't doing it to keep his eyes off anyone else. The guy is a "chilled out" guy, and seemed to be enjoying his wife's show and our noticing. I almost thought he was going to invite us to share or something. (I would not have minded, she definiely had the goods.)

Yes, some guys do like to show off and some ladies love to show it. And don't give me the "for my husband" excuse....

7/18/2006 3:55 PM
s.f. said...
hi glad to have u back (even though the promisd update is just hinted at as somone else noted, things seem to be doing quiet well bh, we r happy for u, btw elisheva u tend to put yourself down versus your dh to often, its not healthy,& its not true at least from what we know about u,but if u feel that way rely on hkb"h that he knows u r worth it, sorry but just my 2 sence, now about the topic) wow u r back full storm lol, i may be of a more ultra yeshivish crowd so its possible i dont talk for the entire specturm,also i m giving a guys point of vew, (but what i m saying is based on expirence, mine & others,)#1 frum girls must know hubby wants u to look decent for his sisters mother or for any darn WOMEN that sees u, its embarssing to have a wife that does not have the know how to look good,as a matter of fact he may be embaresd of your mother & sister & besides for looking good for ppl, he feels like a loser, his wife is cluless, imagin if u wish he invites freinds for a meal & u r not even there but the food tastes teriblle, its teribly amberassing, (now for those that have merited a hubby, that is above all that first seems unlikly it wont matter at all but if thats the case & for reasons of znius u "pretend" to be a neb as we say in america g_d bless u), #2 IF the guy is happy at home its realy great, he wont need it outside, (of course a perv. will always be a perv.) it may be right in begining being he has whats calld "faigelech in kup" from his singlehood he will mind but it shouldent last very long, (more to say but must run more later bln)

7/18/2006 4:01 PM
wearywife said...
Elisheva-you missed my point entirely. Dressing for ones self is not about selfishness. It's about ones stress level. I'm over 30, married app 15 years and a mom of a few kids myself and my mom still tries to tell me what to wear. I have friends who also try to make suggestions. Even my husband has proposed outfits with which I'm not comfortable. Then of course there's the co-workers. And the saleslady at the store is also telling me what I must wear to be fashionable. Even my pre-teen daughter has her thoughts on the subject. Afterall, she doesn't want mom to look outdated. Her friends mom wears this and this and that. It's so cool.
Where does it end? Everyone has an opinion. Well, lets be practical. Who will be wearing my clothes? Me. Who has to live with them?
Me. Who needs to feel comfortable in them? Me. Who needs to feel presentable in them? Me. Yes, lil' ole me. Thus, who's opinion counts the most? Mine. Once again this is not selfishness, but sheer practicality.
Just as we need to be reasonably comfortable with our homes, we need to be reasonably comfortable with our wardrobes.

7/18/2006 4:45 PM
Limey2001 said...
Who said flaunt, i said just dont be a neb. the guy like BD are gonna look anyway...
I get annoyed when my wife looks like a total neb (and not comfortable clothes either) because it reflects badly on me
she can get "tzinus" clothes and still look "good" but not "fetching"
Rabbi abromov mentioned when teaching chasanim you are NOT ALLOWED to tell your wife to wear something "less tzinus"... ITS NOT YOUR BUSINESS... personally i think he's correct but that the women take it to either extreme (hence my point earlier about no middle ground)

7/18/2006 6:06 PM
Halfnutcase said...
women can be beautifull with out being not tznius. i think that, R"L we actualy teach our kids that the only way to be attractive is to be not-tznius, it's so not true.

and i think limeys comment is on the money, it isn't his buisiness, his wife has a right to dress as she likes. (after all we don't believe she's property g-d forbid)

7/18/2006 6:42 PM
Anonymous said...
Bochur may be inappropriate but he is correct. Girls need to be aware of who is around when they are dressing. If you have a group of guys over, you need to realize that you can't display your assets just bec. its Friday night.

7/19/2006 1:14 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonumous. The women in BD's store and friday night story know exactly what they are doing. Who are you kidding that you say they need to realize, they do.

Bd was very true and on the mark unfortunantly. Its a totally different issue nothing to do with husbands wanting to show off their wives. Elisheva, you can make a post on the way many women and girls dress today.

The point is that as a few ppl said a wife should dress well in front of others too, its very important for her husband and their shalom bayis. Not every man wants his wife dressed well to show her off in a bad way, and most women who dress that way are not doing it for their husbands but for themselves, and everyone who sees.

7/19/2006 1:42 AM
Pragmatician said...
I think that too much is when the intention is to attract undue attention, but if it the intention is to look good for among other reasons; a healthy self esteem, promoting Shalom Bayis etc...Than it's not.
The parameters are indeed hard to set, yet you'll see that when honest good intentions are present, the results will be too.
Have you never seen that gorgeous women that just screamed 'aidelkait'?

7/19/2006 7:17 AM
Halfnutcase said...
the problem is girls often convince themselves that they are dressing nicely for themselves when in reality they are dressing the way they dress specificaly so that they can get attention, and this makes them feel good, so they call it "dressing for themselves"

having had alot of friends who are girls i can say this happens all the time with girls who are not self awear enough to realize the subtle difference between dressing nicely for your self and dressing provocatively so you can get attention. i also think that often enough society encourages their low self esteem. this is something that hurts me very much, theyh deserve much better.

but still the issue with the boys boggles my mind.

7/19/2006 7:49 AM
Check it out !

You'll be glad you did !

7/19/2006 9:10 AM
thinking woman said...
The nature of a man is to want to look, & the nature of a woman is to want to be looked at. Add to that an insecure & immature desire to impress others with what we have, be it money, good looks, trophy spouse, etc. & you have a dangerous mix.
I know plenty of beautiful women who draw a line regarding how they dress. They have enough self-respect to dress in up-to-date styles that are still dignified. At the end of the day, tznius is really about the woman respecting herself & wanting to be seen as a real person, not just a piece of meat.
A man who encourages his wife to dress provocatively in public is making a statement about what he values--the admiration and envy of others. He doesn't respect himself & doesn't respect his wife, either. Very sad.

7/19/2006 9:44 AM
wearywife said...
Thinking Woman, you hit the nail on the head. Now, lets examine the possible root of this problem. It could very well be that the shallow superficial way frum society judges women is to blame. It starts in high school. She is discouraged from asking too many questions. A girls entire commitment to yidishkeit is measured by what she wears and how committed she is to financially supporting her future husband so he can learn. Then she gets into shidduchim. The shadchanim are telling her that her strongest marketing points are a tiny dress size, a big bank account and a pretty face. Excessive intelligence is a threat and thinking for herself is an even greater threat.
It's human nature to want to distinguish ones self in some way. Given what frum society values in females and how females ae taught to perceive themselves, is it any wonder that some women feel the need to wear flashy clothes? Women are taught to be followers and independent thought was never encouraged so is it any wonder that she now feels the need to follow the latest trend? If she is valued mainly for her looks is it any wonder that she may feel the need to show off her more private assets with tight clothing?
If, as a bochur, the first things her husband asked about in a girl were her dress size and her bank account, is it any wonder that he might feel the need to show off his pretty wife in expensive, provocative clothing?
It seems to me that this is one problem we've created for ourselves.....

7/19/2006 10:48 AM
Limey2001 said...
If, as a bochur, the first things her husband asked about in a were her dress size and her bank account, is it any wonder that he might feel the need to show off his pretty wife in expensive, provocative clothing?

7/19/2006 11:18 AM
thinking woman said...
Weary wife, I believe that this problem cuts across many frum circles, not only the "black hat" and learning communities. Walk down Central Avenue in the 5 Towns, or look at Teaneck or at Flatbush & see how the women present themselves. Frum women everywhere (and secular women, too)are sacrificing their personal dignity for the cheap thrill of turning heads. Shidduchim based on bank account size and dress size are not the norm there & most of these women don't fit the "Bais Yaakov" mold you described, but the problem is the same. The message that tznius = self respect is lost today. Read Wendy Shalit's book "A Return to Modesty". She writes from a secular perspective & observes that women cheat themselves out of meaningful relationships and positive self-images when they throw modesty out the window. Another good book is Gila Manolson's "Outside/Inside". It should be required reading for every frum woman. The saddest thing of all is that women don't even realize that they are the losers in all this. If you want to be treated as an intelligent person of value, dressing like a bimbo is counter-productive!

7/19/2006 2:33 PM
wearywife said...
Thinking Woman, my comment was geared specifiaclly towards the black hat community, however this problem does exist elsewhere as well.
See, the thing is most of todays young women(and some older ones as well) have no concept of personal dignity. It's not like they consciously choose to be trendy over retaining their personal dignity. Most people nowadays dont have much of a concept of personal dignity. A couple of years ago this goy wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal about this very issue. He said alot of people dress like overgrown children and worse nowadays. I personally have noticed children dressing like grownups. It's as if we have somehow lost not only our personal dignity but our sense of appropriateness as well. We in the frum community are not as immune as we think we are to the social trends of the outside world. We just give them our own unique flavor.
And yes, I've heard of the books you mentioned and highly reccommend them.
Limey,your comment is cute but are you good looking? Are you a 34 waist or less? Do you have a good figure? As a man can you imagine a world in which people are more interested in your suit size, waist size and handsomeness than your thoughts and ideas? Don't think, dear, just look in the mirror and comb your hair. Brush your teeth and make yourself look nice.

7/19/2006 4:30 PM
Elisheva said...
Gosh, so much to comment on, and so little time....

BD, I must admit, you make some strong points. A few people e-mailed me saying they agreed with you. (I guess they are shy to comment about it.) Your first story is like so true today and I really should do a separate post on it. The second story is more like about what I posted about.

Let me clarify one thing like I think maybe I wasn't clear about before. I am not saying guys like force or make their wives dress badly. I admit usually it's the ladies who enjoy it as much as the guys. I think the whole thing is like a certain immaturity. I admit I can get immature too sometimes, but like we should have a certain degree of self-respect and a line we don't cross.

So my issue is not about ladies being forced to dress a way they don't want, but about guys looking at us like objects to show off and some guys even told me that is normal and what is wrong with it. I think it is just a wrong and demeaning thing. Of course we should dress nice and it would be embarrassing to have a wife who looks terrible, but like not because you want to show us off. Just because we should not embarrass you or ourselves.

So I am not talking tznius here. That is like a different issue, and I should really do a post on it. I mean like the issue of a guy enjoying showing his wife off and not having that line, that even if he has hormones and guy stuff etc. a wife should be a line not to cross maybe.

sf, thanx for your compliments and sorry about the lack of updates. I guess I have to be happy that I can post the little I can... and you do wonders for my self-esteem...

You make some good points. I don't know why you think it is like an ultra-yeshivish thing to want your wife to look good for your parents/in-laws. It is natural. A lot of people spoke about this. I think at the bottom of this, the line has to be that of course we should look good, but not because a guy wants to show us off. That's my feeling. And yes, it is a fine line, but I guess if you are honest, and depending on why you are dressing, you will like get into the right way.

Like if you are doing it just to be always presentable and even look fashionable, but you and your husband both understand that you are too precious to be shown off, automatically you will like not go too far even if you want to to look good or fashinable.

But if you are like doing it cause the immature, horny, or whatever part wants to show off or be shown off, then it will be way more than just not embarrassing your husband, it will be like the way BD says it, and that is like demeaning and mean for the single guys and even the married ones.

WW - You wrote two different things and I have like comments on both of them. About the selfish thing. I am totally not putting anyone down, but you say "It's about ones stress level." Okay, so can't you stress yourself a bit to please a spouse? That's my whole point. If my husband asks me to wear something I am uncomfortable in, yes, I am the one wearing it, but he is my husband. And like besides that it is not smart for him not to be happy even for selfish reasons, cause like an unhappy husband cannot be good even for yourself in your marriage, but besides that, can't we give a drop to our husbands? So that is my whole point. Of course there are limits and I agree, but the attitude that I can't be bothered at all and just will not get stressed and will please myself, is just not my way. You have to maintain your sanity, sure, and you can't like lose yourself and get totally stressed out, but a little stress will not kill you if it is for a greater good. And making someone happy, is a greater good. Okay, I am sounding preachy, so I will stop. It is just how I feel, but sure I know that in real life it is like way harder...

Limey, your comments are always great. I think I agree with you mostly. You have to just get the right line.

HNC, you wrote "we actualy teach our kids that the only way to be attractive is to be not-tznius, it's so not true." That is much truer than you think, and we have to deal with it before it gets like way out of hand. And I will add that sometimes talking 'tznius' to your kids all day, also has the opposite effect and tells them you have to be a neb but too bad. That is so not true, and the kid will just not listen. Trust me, lol.

both anons, you are right...

Prag, I already said, you ppl got it right. We just have to get the right line.

HNC, we do fool ourselves, you are so right. And a husband can help us see things right, unless he has this thing that he likes that we fool oursleves cause he is proud to have his friends see us as a trophy or whatever...

thinking w. - so well put. Why didn't my teachers speak like this? I should get to know you...

WW - I have to agree with Thinking W. on this. You seem to be just like pushing an agenda that other blogs like to push. I totally do not think this has anything to do with yeshivish/frum/ whatever. It is in all circles. People who value their cars and homes and all things material to an extreme will look at their wives, and girls at themselves, the same way. Of course we all have to work on ourselves in that respect, but like I said, there is like a limit. But the ones who do, are found in all circles, maybe even more than in ours. Trust me, in some modern circles I know well, the wives openly flirt with the husbands and the guys are quite happy about it, it's scary. It is the same immaturity all over.

And the whole stereotype is so not true. I have like so many problems with our school-system, but the typical anti-kollel, anti-yeshiva ones are so made up. We think like way too much, we are not told to be followers or anything of the sort. Girls grow up to be like so many different types. There are problems, like you bet, but not the ones the anti-kollel ppl wish there were.

Thinking W. I have read the books and they are truly like on the mark. Can I ask what age bracket you are in? You really have a rare understanding I admire

I am way too long, Shalom

7/19/2006 4:51 PM
Elisheva said...
ww, sorry I posted before I saw your last comment. It was very well said, besides the last part, as I said. I was in the market and have friends still like in it. They ask just as much about marks, brains, sem, and stuff that between me and you have like so little to do with us as wives and mothers. They should ask more about middos. But looks is actually not the major part. Money is a way bigger issue, but even that is not all. The asking about marks and tests and how good of a student she was is just as crazy...

7/19/2006 4:54 PM
wearywife said...
Eilsheva, What's wrong with wanting a girl who achieves in school? They're probably asking about her school career to see if she can get a good job and command a good salary. Don't worry, they're not interested in her intellectual development.
Once again this isn't about selfishness. I'm saying so many people have an opinion about what we should wear. Our parents(no Elisheva, mom will never stop trying to tell us what to wear), friends,co-workers, spouses, sales people.....Even my 12 y/o daughter has an opinion! She wants me to be as cool as her friends mom! Everyone is a fashion critic!!!
So, I dont always listen to my mom's fashion advice....does that make me a bad daughter? So I'm not a femme fatale......does that make me a bad wife? So I'm not as cool as my daughter's friend's mom...does that make me a bad mother? No to all of the above. The fact is you will never, ever please everyone.It's just not possible, so the prudent thing to do is to be open to suggestions but to use your own judgement.

7/19/2006 7:27 PM
Chana said...
WW... Duh...

And here I thought, it was about pleasing your husband, if you have
one.. Silly me...

Elisheva, excellent post and great comments. Keep up the good work..

7/19/2006 9:16 PM
thinking woman said...
Elisheva, your blog is one of the very few out there where intelligent, honest, respectful discussion is consistently maintained. I lurk on many frum-oriented blogs but rarely comment. Since you asked, I am in my thirties. I am married and have a bunch of kids. I find the issue of tznius very complex & put a lot of thought into it on a regular basis. Keep up with your excellent blogging!

7/19/2006 9:32 PM
Anonymous said...
What BD says rings true- girls have 2 ways of dressing
1. In front of people they fear will think negatively about them (read: adults) and
2. In front of their friends
I went with my husband to our friends house one Shabbos and her "special shabbos outfit" bared so much cleavage I thought he wouldn't be interested in me when we got home- Jamie

7/20/2006 1:00 AM
bachur in the know said...
and let's not forget the latest 'heimish' version of swinging. The two couples eating together Friday night - both wives showing every drop of cleavage and curve of their asses. The guys eye each other, okay the checking out of their mates - the wives are giggly and 'bumping into' and playing footsie with the friend's husband - and then, after open talk about "oh you can't imagine what she does to me, she's wild", and "oh my husband is so good at that, pity he can't show you..." - then while no one would dream the couple who 'ate at their friends' did it, they switch partners and go to different rooms, "just for the good of their marriages", to teach the spouse some good techniches.


7/20/2006 9:26 AM
Limey2001 said...
Bocher in the know...... and then you woke up

7/20/2006 10:44 AM
Elisheva said...
Chana, hi. Thanx.

Thinking W. - Thanx. I do try. It shows that you thought about this stuff, and you did a good job. Would you e-mail me? I'd love to talk stuff with such a normal person...

Bachur ITK - Like what BD described is sadly all too true. What you write on the other hand, like maybe, maybe it happened, but it is not exactly a major problem in our society. Don't believe every crazy rumor you hear. Some horny guy prob wanted it to happen more than it ever did...


7/20/2006 3:20 PM
Halfnutcase said...
(advance appologies to elisheva if she considers me presumptuous for saying this.)

do we really have to use such vulgar language on this thread? harsh words make a person's heart harsh y'know.

tznius is speach aplies to both men and women, and it includes things like using harsh language or directly mentioning unclean things you know. (as well as more vulgar word choices)
(again, i hope i'm not being presumptuous)

7/20/2006 3:32 PM
Elisheva said...
You are being great HNC! Thanx, I hate having to do it, but you are right. It is way better to say stuff in a subtle way.

7/20/2006 3:52 PM
ThinkingJew said...
I think Bachur ITK is saying that even if it hasn't happened yet, why will it not get there? If BD is right and it is so out of hand, which seems to be people's sentiments, then look at the broader world, and this is the next step. Let's not fool ourselves to think we can flaunt the rules so far and then stop. Once you go down, who is to stop it from going more?

7/20/2006 3:54 PM
Gavi said...
'Tis very simple. People have a lot of trouble understanding and practicing tznius, because it is so much more than necklines or skirt lengths. It is about how one carries oneself, presents oneself, and acts in general. Clothing (for both men and women) is just one small indicator. Rav Hershel Schechter writes about this at great length in many essays found on

7/20/2006 8:18 PM
Bracha said...
I think generally the couples or women who will act like this are more immature and do this only because now after they are married they feel they "can".

They are married now and can do grown up things and think they can dress how they like since they have to "look good".

But in reality, they would have dressed like this and sometimes do dress like this even before being married.


7/20/2006 11:41 PM
kollel mama said...
Wow. Great post. Lots to comment on. As bracha said, I think girls would dress they do once their married, but don't since parents don't let them. It's not unusual for a girl who is 22 to be told by her mother to change. It's pathetic but I've seen it.Anyway, the fact that a husband wants his wife to look good, isn't such a big deal. Don't you want your husband to look good and put together? And as someone had mentioned, your kids? You want them to look nice, for other people as much as for you. You want to look like a put together couple. There is nothing wrong, with a husband wanting his wife to look pretty, even if it's for other people, as well as himself.

Are we women being used, as we often are, or is this the way of the world?

Um, maybe the way of the world is, women are sometimes used ;) (just a side point!)

or is it sick and weird, and a bad hashpa’ah from the world we live in that a husband does not think of his wife as special for him, and has no problem showing her off?

The way I see it is, that he sees the wife as special, and that's the very reason he wants to show her off! I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I don't necessarily think it's a stira.

As far as your friend, who purposely flaunts what she has-- that is sick. Her reasoning is absolutely skewed.

Women do enjoy looking good, for themselves, for their husbands and for everyone else. The attention feels nice. And there's nothing wrong with dressing nice,as long as it is not done, to attract NEGATIVE attention. If someone compliments you on a sheitel or a nice outfit, I think that is okay. When you are wearing a tight robe Friday night with guys over, that is NOT okay. Some women do really need to feel good about themselves, and do dress for themselves. I know that when I wake up in the morning after a night of not too much sleep (thanks to my beautiful baby)and I wonder who that face in the mirror staring back at me is, I need the makeup, and fast. As soon as I put my makeup on I already feel better. I look like a human.

As far as "dressing to the nines for supper"-what the heck is the point? Do you think your husband really cares if you've got a full face of makeup and heels on at the end of the day? Maybe yours does, but I think most are very understanding, and don't really care. As long as supper is on the table, that's what matters!

Sorry this is lots of uncohesive bits of rambling, but last night was "one of those nights". :)

7/23/2006 5:00 AM
kollel mama said...
Wow. Great post. Lots to comment on. As bracha said, I think girls would dress they do once their married, but don't since parents don't let them. It's not unusual for a girl who is 22 to be told by her mother to change. It's pathetic but I've seen it.Anyway, the fact that a husband wants his wife to look good, isn't such a big deal. Don't you want your husband to look good and put together? And as someone had mentioned, your kids? You want them to look nice, for other people as much as for you. You want to look like a put together couple. There is nothing wrong, with a husband wanting his wife to look pretty, even if it's for other people, as well as himself.

Are we women being used, as we often are, or is this the way of the world?

Um, maybe the way of the world is, women are sometimes used ;) (just a side point!)

or is it sick and weird, and a bad hashpa’ah from the world we live in that a husband does not think of his wife as special for him, and has no problem showing her off?

The way I see it is, that he sees the wife as special, and that's the very reason he wants to show her off! I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I don't necessarily think it's a stira.

As far as your friend, who purposely flaunts what she has-- that is sick. Her reasoning is absolutely skewed.

Women do enjoy looking good, for themselves, for their husbands and for everyone else. The attention feels nice. And there's nothing wrong with dressing nice,as long as it is not done, to attract NEGATIVE attention. If someone compliments you on a sheitel or a nice outfit, I think that is okay. When you are wearing a tight robe Friday night with guys over, that is NOT okay. Some women do really need to feel good about themselves, and do dress for themselves. I know that when I wake up in the morning after a night of not too much sleep (thanks to my beautiful baby)and I wonder who that face in the mirror staring back at me is, I need the makeup, and fast. As soon as I put my makeup on I already feel better. I look like a human.

As far as "dressing to the nines for supper"-what the heck is the point? Do you think your husband really cares if you've got a full face of makeup and heels on at the end of the day? Maybe yours does, but I think most are very understanding, and don't really care. As long as supper is on the table, that's what matters!

Sorry this is lots of uncohesive bits of rambling, but last night was "one of those nights". :)

7/23/2006 5:00 AM
FrumGirl said...
Woah... I didnt read any other comments I got here late for the debate so I will just write what I think.

Too much thought is being put into what you think the guys are doing. You can only be used if you think you are being used. What does it ultimately matter if there is some loserish competition among the guys. Let that be their issue.... And yes womoen enjoy dressing for themselves too not just for the guys. I know that I dont dress for hubby. there are many times I will try new styles that he isnt into and dislikes but I always tell him he will get used to it, and usually does and ends up liking it. We are not an extention of men unless we make ourselves that way. Ladies, get your confidence from within not from some guy be it hubby or whomever. And let the losers who compete with their wives to contend with only themselves too.

7/23/2006 1:44 PM
michal said...
I think kollelmama has a good point - a lot of girls are expected to dress like little girls all their lives... their mothers and BY and seminary decide and dictate exactly what they're allowed to wear... and it's not only not very sexy, it's not very grown-up either. Because "society" tells them it's not aidel. When they get married, and can now choose to dress like women and not girls, some can go overboard. But it's a double standard to say that they can't dress sexily when they're not married, because they're not married -- and they can't dress sexily when they are married, because they are.

There's a difference between dressing alluringly because you want to attract the attention of men who aren't your husband, which is obviously a problem, and wanting to look like a beautiful wife when he comes home, so he'll look forward to coming home to you. A good husband will always understand and appreciate the difference.

7/23/2006 1:55 PM
Elisheva said...

TJ - That is a scary thoguht. I have to agree with some of it. We do have to wonder where our little things can lead us to...

Gavi, I don't think the issue here is a tznius one.

Bracha - HI! Very good point. I think this is for both the guys and ladies. The girls want to dress in a way as if it is suddenly okay because now we are "ladies". And for the guys it is suddenly a kosher way of showing off about girls, cause it's their wife and a wife is kosher.

KM - I don't think you got the point here. We are totally not talking abut looking good. I am not exactly going around looking like a neb. Far from it. I think if I would be on a higher madrega there are things I wear I probably should not. The issue here clearly was one of flaunting your body specifically for guys and husbands wanting us to do just that. That is a totally different issue.

And you say "The way I see it is, that he sees the wife as special, and that's the very reason he wants to show her off! I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I don't necessarily think it's a stira." Then you say the lady who wears a tight robe Friday night is sick. Why? She just thinks she is special, like showing off her pearls, which is for sure normal, so she also like shows off her boobs.

You will have to agree that there are different types of special. And there is a special that if you are mature, should be above your outfit and jewlery, and like maybe private-special. But maybe that is a nebby old-fashioned concept which I somehow picked up. Gosh, my mother would love that, lol!

And a husband doesn't care if his wife looks good for supper, ever? I know sometimes it just doesn't happen and sometimes he is too hungry and tired, but if he cares outside, why not at home? Like to me it seems a guy really can get aroused from a wife dressed not just to the nines, but more to the point, to show that she wants him to see her and notice how she looks.

FG - That is a very good point about not being used unless you let yourself. I like it.

Michal, I don't know about us not dressing maturely. I think we dress too mature too young. I know I did it too, and my mother begged me not to, but like I agree I did and we all did and it was silly.

The second paragraph of your comment I could not agree more with. I await more of your comments.


7/24/2006 4:53 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i don't know if i'd call it "dressing mature".

somehow it seems like dressing immaturely. It's like a mature person should know that they don't have to show off their bodies to every one shouldn't they? when we call this dressing like an adult i think we're sending a not so subtle message here.

proper adults should have more respect for each other.

lets just call this mode of dress what it is, dressing anti-tznius.

7/24/2006 5:25 PM
kollel mama said...
please-showing off in a tight robe with a lace bra when they are having guys over is something totally different, than dressing to kill outside. I also know, that some husbands aren't into makeup and jewelry. Believe it or not. So dressing for supper won't make much of a difference. Naturally, it's not nice for him to come home and she's shlepping around in Abercrombie pajama pants-but dressed, normally in a skirt and shirt, even a t-shirt,is fine for most husbands. Besides, once you're out of shana rishona and iy''H you have kids (or whichever comes first ;))you'll just be pleased that you actually got supper on the table.

7/25/2006 4:19 AM
SKIBUM said...
"but more to the point, to show that she wants him to see her and notice how she looks."
Eli7- right on, that comment shows you are muture beyond your years
and the immature one want to be noticed by other "husbands"

7/25/2006 1:36 PM
Elisheva said...
HNC - I don't think you realize what i am talking aobut. I guess it's girl-talk. Dressing mature totally does not have to mean anti-tznius or whatever you call it. A girl can dress in a way that would be totally appropriate and tznius for a twenty year old, but like totally not on a fourteen year old.

KM - Dressing to kill outside may be a bit different than a lace bra under a tight robe, but in truth, like is it okay? It may be better, but still not okay. There is like a bigger difference between dressing to please and look good and even stylish outside and dressing to kill.

ANd I never said dressing to the nines means make-up or jewlery only. It can be whatever your husbnad would like. Every guy likes his wofe in cewrtain things or look sand there is no reason that when you can (of course that gets less and less with time, but for us young newlies and for the older ones I guess when you can...) you should not drsss in a way that pleases, and even arouses him, just for a plain supper. maybe the kalla stuff is fresh in my mind and this sounds nebby to older couples, but maybe some stuff is good to be reminded about and like rekindle stuff. it sure is better than the pathetic guys online all saying howe little their wives care how they look unless they are dressing to go out. Sorry if I sound preachy. I can get that way, lol...

Skibum, thanx, and you put it pretty nicely yourself!


7/25/2006 3:18 PM
Yakov said...
Ok after reading the posts here, I must say I am one of those guys who encourages his wife to dress nicely. In my case it is crucial for “shlom bayit”. When my wife dresses nicely I feel proud walking around with her and my attention is kept towards her. When she decides to dress simple I will notice her less and notice other woman more. So for woman who are married to guys like me, it is important to dress nicely in order to keep their husbands focused on them. Ok stop screaming you are a perv that terrible…. right or not, this is most guys nature they will notice other woman, and if their wife is looking and dressing nicely, they will keep their focus on their wives as opposed to noticing other woman.
In your case Elisheva your husband doesn’t seem to be the wandering eyes type, which is great and therefore you don’t need to dress up. In most cases guys do have wandering eyes so the wives should try to look good and trust me this does a lot of good for the marriage.
As far as other men looking I don’t really mind, I do the same when a good looking girl passes by so hey why shouldn’t they look as well….

7/25/2006 5:47 PM
Elisheva said...
Yakov, like are there any people left, especially yeshiva guys, who know how to read English??

This post is NOT about wives dressing nice. Do you know what "flaunt" means? Do you know what "flirty" means? The question was about guys liking it when their wives flaunt and dress flirty for other guys and look at it like some kind of one-up over their friends, and some kind of competition.

Did anybody get that?

And when you sau you do it so you have no problem when guys do it to your wife, how far would you take that? All the way? Like most guys admit they would check out a lady dressed provocaively too. So because you have a nisayon and are human and would do it, so like therefor you would have no problem with a guy checking out your wife's intimate parts and underwear? Like if we take things this far, it can get weird. maybe we have to say, I admit I am human and do it, and if another guy does it, it is human, but I sure would rather it was not on my wife's intimate parts.

Guess I am still pretty naive.


7/25/2006 7:01 PM
Anonymous said...
Are there like any like people left, especially like seminary girls, who like write English without writing the world like so much?

7/26/2006 8:27 AM
yakov said...
Yakov, like are there any people left, especially yeshiva guys, who know how to read English??

This post is NOT about wives dressing nice. Do you know what "flaunt" means? Do you know what "flirty" means? The question was about guys liking it when their wives flaunt and dress flirty for other guys and look at it like some kind of one-up over their friends, and some kind of competition.

I’m glad that in your English the difference between dressing nice and dressing flirty is so well cut. Sorry to break it to you, what might seem as flaunt to some might be nice dressing to others.

Its very naïve of you to think that men tell their wives, please dress provocative so other men will look. If you decided that the way these woman dress is flaunt, it does not necessarily mean that others view it that way as well. This post has a lot to do with woman dressing nice or flirty or flaunty whatever you like calling it...

7/26/2006 9:32 AM
Elisheva said...
Yakov, first of all it was out of place where I wrote about yeshiva guys not knowing English. I guess I am human. It is true of some guys, but I have seen that others do know it. In general some people just don't know how to read things and just like respond to the issue in their heads, like their agenda, and not the issue they just read about.

About what you wrote, I think this is like a classic example of fooling yourself. I know how it works, trust me. I've been there, and maybe I still am there. But deep down we know the truth and flaunting is like definitely NOT dressing nice and it is totally two different things.

A husband might not say straight out dress provocatively for my friends, but when he is pushing her to dress in a certain way which is way over the top and way more then looking good and he is immature and gets a kick out of his friends seeing her, he is only fooling himself when he says, to me this is only dressing nice.

Like I am totally human and fall many times and dress too far. But at least I know deep down it is wrong and I really should grow up and get a hold of myself. The problem is when we start saying, oh it is not too bad, it is only dressing nice...


7/26/2006 3:16 PM
Halfnutcase said...
it's good of you to admit that elisheva, although honestly i think it's more a sign of age than anything else, so you come by it fairly, and i suspect are much better than most even.

there are basicaly two kinds of "adult" dress. there is the kind that is flaunting(and yes some people of your age, boys and girls both confuse it for nice), and there is dignified.

flaunting ranges from the obvious to the very subtle. red lipstick is one of the most "classic" examples of extreemely subtle flaunting dress, and i think an excelent thing to wear at home for your husband. There are varying forms of this, and really i think we are taught to avoid all of these in public (whether your single or married really).

but i think there is another kind of "adult" dress. Dressing in a dignified way, a way that respects your self as a person and tries to present you in a manner that doesn't demean you in any way (and i think that's essentialy what tznius is, because the truth is boys will do their thing after seing a girl whether or not she's not-tznius). I really cant give examples of such dress (mostly because you see so little of it nowdays). such dressing can also be called nice, and even beautifull, but not for base reasons.

I think that we're supposed to work on our selves, so that we do not try to resort to using our bodies to sell our selves to other people. I really think that hashem wants us to have the self esteem necessary to be our best, and i think such an attitude is what will make us healthiest.

elisheva, i understand full good and well all the implications of the "girl talk" expression "looking nice" or "adult". I've had to many friends who where girls and listened to them talk about such things as friends to often not to know.

however that said, hashem makes us in a way that we have a desire to. . . do things like that, and mastering it is one of the most difficult things a human being can do. i think that as long as you are doing better that you did before and are workuing on your self that your ok and doing well. Remember what perkei avos tells us about neither desisting from the work, nor must we complete it.

and i think that men and womens desires play off each other here, while it may not be something i relate to (at all.)i can certainly see, now that its been presented to me, just how people tell themselves these things are ok. we tell our selves that "really we're doing it for our husbands" but honestly, do they wear such or more in their houses? most husbands properly trained will only have eyes for their wives, even in the public place (and i myself have a number of women to credit for properly training me) when we tell our selves that "their eyes will naturaly wander anyway" we are basicaly making an excuse to compete with the other women, instead of holding me culpable for their behavior.

will they possibly desire to look? i would worry if they didn't. However hashem gave each of us a yeitzer tov, and under normal everyday conditions we are guranteed that we are able to overcome it. part of the law is that we are forbiden to look in that not-ok way at members of the opposite sex, and scince men cannot really control the manner of dress in the women they inevidably come around, the reality is that they will come around, and hashem has prepared us to deal with it. (although for time to time it may be a major struggle)

(sorry for this whole tangential thing)

7/26/2006 6:30 PM
sara said...
just for a different perspective- I've been married for close to 2 years now. I have to say that the way I chose to dress has definitely changed. And no, it is not because my husband encourages me to 'dress' in any certian way. simple: my husband boosted my confidance in myself and the way I look. That with time changed the way I carried myself.
When you are single it is very easy to feel like your looking like 'crap' when you are constantly attending l'chaims, weddings etc... where every 'eligible' girl is dressed to kill, skinny as a toothpick, and wearing seven layers of makeup. So the right pple would check them out etc... I always hated the scene- and never took part of the whole concept of looking amazing so people will see you and set you up etc....
But I definitely felt self conscious plently of times. Thankfully, I married a wonderful guy, and its the opposite of what you are all saying. My husband loves me and makes me feel gorgeous. I feel great and I always want to look good even in daily jean skirt :) I don't feel the need to compete with other woman or girls or for other men's attention. My husband does not know styles and he loves me in whatever I chose to wear as long as I am comfortable in it.

Whereas before I got married I felt like a piece of 'meat'. People describing me as "she's really pretty, on the shorter side, very cute" etc... selling me off... after I got married that all changed.

The situation swings both ways:

We were once out with some other couples eating pizza. and this one girl remarked that she can't believe her hubby eats 'five' slices of pizza. she was freaking out that her hubby eats waay too much. she's like you eat one slice. so i told her, "what do u mean, I could probably eat a few slices but i try to eat one or two so I don't turn into a cow" so she's says "so what will happen if you gain some weight" so my husband jokingly says "what do u mean I don't let her gain weight" so she's replies "how sick". This coming from a wife who was dictating her hubby how many slices of pizza to eat cuz he's too overweight and telling him to tuck in his shirt!!!
I never tell my hubby about his weight etc... I only compliment him when he looks good and I let him know that I appreciate him working out and being fit etc....
Women & Men alike appreciate when their spouse is put together and looks mentshlich. But in my circle of friends & acquaintances if someone dresses provacitively people wonder how the husband does mind that his wife is auctioning her goods....
okay this got kind of long....adios

7/26/2006 8:26 PM
Elisheva's Husbad (yeshiva guy) said...
I accept your apologies for insulting yeshiva guys.

7/28/2006 9:34 AM
Anonymous said...
what is a husbad .. Is there a husgood

7/28/2006 4:47 PM
Anonymous said...
Seems like most of you missed the boat a long time ago, and it would take a lot more than some discussions on a blog to explain.

7/30/2006 7:56 PM
s.f. said...
elisheva i misunderstood the point of post, (it seems so have others) i thought u were trying to figure out is it true that the wifes r regarded by huubys as "trophies", that i belive the majorty of "guys" said no to,(that explains y i said ultra yeshivish as dont know in other circles may or may not be diff.),
now i relize your question was directed to the women around here, & was introspective about "why" they dress the way they do, obviously its up to the girls to awnser, but i do have a thought on the matter as to y girls will dress more provctivly after getting marreid, i think its quiet simple, most frum girls do not relate to themselvs as physicly attractive, & dont dress to show off there attributes, being its not realy "nogea", they r (at least not officaly)not being lookd at by boys, so naturly they will dress tastefully & thats all, but once marreid & they r very aware about there physical attraction, & it becomes quiet importent to them, & therfore dress acordingly,
(btw did anybody hear from ms shtark, shes not been around latly i hope for good reason)

7/31/2006 4:02 PM
Semgirl said...
ms shtark went to israel for 6 weeks.. She should be back around Aug. 12. I miss her so much..

7/31/2006 4:10 PM
s.f. said...
thanx sg for the info. i hope all is well with here there, & yes she is missd i must say she adds alot to the blog thank u again

7/31/2006 9:47 PM
Anonymous said...
I think that men who want their wives/girlfriends to dress provocatively are not saying anything regarding their views of women, but rather are making a statement about their own self esteem. They need their friends/co-workers/strangers to acknowledge that the seemingly average Joe is not so average after all if he could get such a such a woman to be with him.

8/01/2006 2:35 PM
David said...
I've never commented here before and live in a different community than you, but I think that this issue is not community-limited. I've been married for 5 years now and have talked with my wife many times about dress, etc.

I believe that many women like the attention that they get from random people - they like when guys think of them as pretty, "hot" and desirable. I think that the focus on desirable is really behind all of this. Women, I believe all women, want to feel desired - there are just different ways of going about it. A husband can entirely fill this role, so that his wife does not feel any need to feel desirable by other men.

I think that the problem of secular culture that you mentioned is that the husbands promote such behavior because of the notion of a trophy wife. They do not actually need to tell their wives anything, but when another guy looks at his wife and he smiles approvingly (as in "yeah, I know") that is enough encouragement - that is promoting her dressing behavior.

There is an additional element of women and girls wanting to look good in front of their peers, colleagues and adults - I believe that this refers only to women. Women usually feel the need to look good in front of other women - this is not because of desirability - I am not sure that I understand entirely why. I don't think a women needs to dress provacatively (and yes, cleavage is provacative) to garner this group's "approval" that they seek. They just need to be put together and present themselves nicely (I think that this part is the most important but will leave it to other women to discuss). In my neighborhood there are sometimes Women Friday Night Onegs - if you have any by you - see what the women wear there - it is very different that their "tight robes."

Elisheva, I think you write about issues after a lot of thought - I appreciate that. Thanks.

8/02/2006 1:55 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i think to answer davids question as to why is that women in general respond to any kind of "competition" differently than men. men confron it directly, women on the other hand are known to go in a round about way doing things like denigrating the way someone dresses, directly to the person or people they are competing "for"

i think that in a very real way this is a veriation of this theme. the women, afraid that someone may appear "better" than them selves respond by attempting to out do the "competition", and they do it for their own self esteem. i just think the problem is how they are competing. Essentialy these girls are trying to compensate for what ever they feel they lack by showing something they believe to be of value, and unfortunately they seem to place this value on their bodies instead of their minds, character and demeanor.

i think i'm rembling so i'll cut short here

8/02/2006 5:22 PM
Anonymous said...
this hatred toward yeshiva guys is stange considering its' coming from a "lakewood girl". totaly uncalled for .... Your apology not withstanding, i suspect this was the quintessential freudian slip.

8/03/2006 8:39 AM
Anonymous said...
this hatred toward yeshiva guys is stange considering its' coming from a "lakewood girl". totaly uncalled for .... Your apology not withstanding, i suspect this was the proverbial freudian slip.

8/03/2006 8:40 AM
Semgirl said...
"unfortunately they seem to place this value on their bodies instead of their minds, character and demeanor. "

Spot on...HNC

8/04/2006 1:08 AM
David said...
IMHO I think that, at least with regard to men, it is really a question of feeling desired. This is a quick and easy method to feel that way.

8/04/2006 9:23 AM
Limey2001 said...
semgirl, do you think ms. shtark wanted you to post her travel arrangements?
you wouldn't want someone to post yours... (of course yours wouldn't be "real time")

8/08/2006 11:16 AM
ms. shtark said...
wow, quite the loaded topic. being that i have no patience to read thru all 73 comments, i'll just add my 2 cents anyways.

although, i am still single, i still have my opinion about this. i could be wrong but i understand why a husband would want to show off his wife and what he's got all to himself (hopefully). it's like showing off your new infiniti or lincoln town car, a rolex or any other thing that you own..... but it still is tasteless. This for sure affects the whole wide world but also in the yeshivish world, i have this theory... most newlyweds can't afford that many material possessions but they do have a wife and for lack of anything else, they may want to show off even more what they have. I am not condoning this but it's fact because we are such a materialistically competitive and desirous generation- Sometimes, I think that we (men and ladies) never really grow up - we're still doing show and tell - in more subtle but even more harmful ways. Instead of your pet frog, now it's bigger and better stuff (hopefully not bigger than size 4, tho right guys? LOL - sorry couldn't resist) A wife is more than a possession to show off, rather she is someone to keep to yourself and cherish. and what is beautiful you cover up properly and you are not desperate for the whole world to see. Gila Manolson talks about this in her book called "outside/inside" - i reccomend it to all!

Shevs, it sounds like you got a great husband because he values you and doesn't want to share you with the rest of the world. Any woman who flaunts her body knowing she is receiving all this attention truly needs a self esteem boost. I have met plenty of girls like this.

But on with it..... Although we shouldn't be walking around with see thru or too tight or too short clothing showing off all our assets or lack of them, doesn't mean we have the right (yes the right) to go around like harried shlumps in baggy clothing. A ba'alas teshuva once told me that you don't realize how much the rest of the world, esp irreligious ppl are checking u out - not to sound too sappy - she told me that we are like walking sifrei torah. Is the mantel of a sefer torah a shlumpy too large black jersey with a too long frumpy black pleated skirt or a two week out of the cleaners greying shirt worn every day, with pants that you can see your reflection in? no way! Therefore, we have to dress accordingly. There is nothing wrong with dressing with it and trendy as long as you don't go overboard. you can wear what is in style in a tasteful and aidel way. it's funny because i myself like to dress trendy but i don't either like to call too much unwanted attention so you have to just make sure that the whole overall look "shtims" - i have a friend who told me that i would buy a funky necklace and make it look aidel and she buys the same thing and it looks bummy - it's just that the shirt is too tight or something like that. yes, we are far from perfect and we always have to improve in the areas of modesty but we also have to always look appropriate because we are on show for the world. and yes, on a more individual level, you have to also look presentable so your husband/wife feels pride when they are around you - that you look good and put together - not to make yourself into a slut (pardon my french) but that shows that you want to dress well for your husband cuz you want to look good for him. (added bonus - shvuger will be proud too) And even more so, it's so imp to do this more in the home than outside. I have a teacher who has drilled into us that when we i'yh get married, we should take 5 min right before your husband comes home to make yourself attractive and presentable - it shows you care!
i don't know, maybe my views are a little warped and this is just an excuse for me to be a shopaholic and buy fun clothes but if it is with taste then gezuntaheit!!

ohh and one more thing.......... why do so many girls walk the "bais yaakov shlump"? hold your head high, straighten your posture and already that will make a world of difference!
sorry for rambling!

8/09/2006 1:51 PM
Anonymous said...
ms shtark welcom back

8/11/2006 1:54 PM
nakedbochur said...
Eli: amazing as usual, keep them coming!!!

8/11/2006 3:00 PM
Josh said...
Shevs - YOU may be a trophy, but the very thought that any person (man or woman) is valued for their looks alone is problematic. Obviously, as others noted, there is a difference between put together and stylish on one hand, and revealing and enticing on the other. A women can be beautiful without flaunting it, to men or women.

I would certainly be suspicious of a spouse's motives in encouraging such superficial behavior. It's probably just pushing the limits, but it's important that a couple recognize their motivations and not just unwittingly further degeration of values in the frum world.

Unfortunately, even in the frum world, the spirit of the law is often lost. People think that wearing a skirt and a shaitel is enough in Gd's eyes, and the rest of the decisions are up to their whims.

Eli, thanks for reminding us that we need to constantly be on the look out for what our real motivations are. Even if we aren't perfect, we can at least be aware of whether we are acting in a frum way or not.

8/14/2006 9:47 PM
Anonymous said...
looks like "somone" is on honey moon, hope u havin a great time see u after bein hazmanim lol

8/17/2006 2:35 PM
David_on_the_Lake said...
I'm a little late to the party...
I'm not quite sure what the issue is be honest with you. I think it's wonderful that people are proud of their spouses. I'm proud of my wifes beauty and talents and she's proud to show off mine. Do we feel used..?? God forbid.
Someone who feels the need for his wife to dress provoctavely sounds like to me like a far deeper issue.

8/20/2006 6:54 PM
Der Roov said...
It seems like some people have no clue what the word Tznius means. Like the ones who like to write they dress "Tznius but stylish." Tznius is not a sleeve length. It's an attitude. If your arms are covered to your palms with a bright red, skin tight, leather bodice, and your legs with a floor length, but very tight dress of the same color, you may be covered, but you're not tznius by any means. There was never a levaya of a Yerushalmi old timer where the maspid said she was: "eesha chashuva shelavsha tznuah". Either she was an Eesha Tznua or she wasn't. The woman herself was a "Tznua", not her mode of dress. If she was covered head to toe in the typical moslem garb, while talking loudly on a cell phone, taking a short cut through the parking lot past the front door of the bais mederesh, it fails the tznius test. Anything a woman does to attract attention to herself in the presence of men shows a lack of tznius. If any of the women need further explanations, ask any 14 or 15 year old girl in Williamsburgh, Viznitz, Kiryas Yoel, or New Square to explain it to you.

8/20/2006 7:02 PM
Halfnutcase said...
as i see tznius appaulingly reduced to the "women must not be seen by men" insanity.


8/20/2006 9:59 PM
Gavi said...
der roov has understood why I brought up the issue of tznius.

8/21/2006 12:21 AM
Anonymous said...
I think the roov is such a freakin gaylord

8/21/2006 2:46 PM
Halfnutcase said...
anon, from what i know of elisheva she really would not apriciate you putting such mean spirited and derogatory comments toward someone on her blog.

speak respectfully please.

(and elisheva, again please excuse my forwardness in saying this instead of waiting for you to say it)

8/23/2006 9:08 PM
trixies86 said...
before we worry about weather we are trophies to our husbands maybe we should think wheather deep down we want to be trophies to them, wheather they are trophies to us, and wheather we are trophies to ourselves (do we show ourselves off).

8/26/2006 11:56 PM
MeabedAtzmo said...
Actually SEm you make great points and raise very valid questions. Guys whos wives are currently not much to look at are nicshal in looking at other guys wives all the time, although this is exactly what the aseres hadibros speaks about(as forbidden I may add). Are there any easy answers? I don't think so. iTs a personal war with the yetzer that we have to deal with and if a guy succeeds in shmiras Aynayim he is like a tzaddik ,if not his life is hell no matter which way you slice it. If you look you just want more of what you cant have, and if you act on it in any variety of ways, you have hell in this world and the next. So whats the eytzah? therapy? counseling? Divorce???? no easy way out and no easy answers .... Damned whatever you do..
oh well thats life hehehhe

8/30/2006 12:03 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i'm kinda worried about elisheva, hope she comes back soon. I think everyone misses her.

9/11/2006 10:51 PM
Anonymous said...
Keshiva v'chsima tova to one and all.

9/18/2006 1:02 PM

Comments on A Little Bit of Info

Anonymous said...
Wow, I'm first!
Mazel Tov again.

2/08/2006 8:38 PM
Josh said...
Elisheva, that was so personal, it was touching. Well, at least as personal as you can be while remaining anonymous! You writing described the feelings that confront a Kallah very well. You're aware of everbody around you, and of your own thoughts and needs, and your honesty in everything is inspiring. I am glad that we will continue to benefit from your insights into growing into the religious responsibilities that we all face.

I look forward to sharing in all your future Mazel!

2/08/2006 9:13 PM
Chillin in The Lake said...
Elisheva, Im so happy for you. Very well said. Hope to hear more from you...

2/08/2006 10:42 PM
s.f. said...
tx tons for your sharing your feelings & simcha with us, i m a guy but ill admit to having tears in my eyes while reading, (it seems u did not aprecate the idea of a "shower" from us) also being i figured u r smart enough do handle this on your own i havent commentad on the issue ifu shoud share your blog with hubby, but i did talk to a bachur in shiduchim now a realy fine yeshivish fellow, who knowsnothing about blogs etc i explaind it to him & askd how he would feel i was surprised but he said it would not mean to him that the girl is "kalye" ,so it seems guys r not so closed minded after all,

2/08/2006 10:50 PM
s.f. said...
oy vey i smell the end of blog is near shevy if u r going to live in lakwood, the schools wont accept your children if u have internet acces,

2/08/2006 10:53 PM
ms. shtark said...
very well written. i was esp. touched about what you wrote; not forgetting your single friends. you know it's funny - right out of seminary it is kind of a race to get engaged the first in the grade and then once the first 10 have gone, there is no race and then sadly you begin to really appreciate your friends and really feel simcha as you get to age 22 and 23. and wow that is not even old.... i am so happy for you. you sound so fresh and eager, just like a kallah should be. all the best!!!

2/08/2006 11:04 PM
geshmaker said...
congradulations are in order. i think you finaly made it a GIRLS ONLY blog. i can't think of anything you wrote thsat would interest any self-respecting guy. so mazal tov, good-bye, and i did enjoy the good parts of your blog while it lasted.

2/08/2006 11:07 PM
Semgirl said...
Sorry, I didnt make the #1 spot, again. You did email me before posting and I really appreciate that. Unfortunately, I checked my email many times this afternoon, but went out to eat tonite and then attended a phenomenal lecture afterwards. Since I'm falling asleep as I am writing this I will have to continue tommorrow..

2/08/2006 11:48 PM
Anonymous said...
Where is bmgb? I am shocked he didnt post first. Anyways Mazel tov again and good luck.

2/09/2006 1:09 AM
specialx2 said...
Thank you for writing so personal, interesting, witty, and LONG! I enjoyed reading it, and thanks for writing so sensitively to the singles! FOR ONCE WE GOT RECOGNITION! THANKS! It feels gr8!
Hatzlacha in everything! Keep us posted!
I shared your feelings about the issue of telling him / sharing with him all your online stories like your blog etc. It's good that you told him a little background, but yet not EVERYTHING, like some people suggested here.

2/09/2006 9:41 AM
On The Derech said...
Iy'h everything should continue smoothly and you should always be as happy as you are now! Are you going to have internet when you get married??

2/09/2006 2:08 PM
Elisheva said...
Josh - As usual, such nice comments and you really are a dear to say such nice things about me. And is that your pic? I like it. You will make someone real lucky one day...

Chillin, thanks.

s.f. - Firsy of all the 'shower' idea was real cute. I just think it could really happen. But it was an idea... About the bachur you spoke to, I guess we are over stereotyped. Like I think people think all frum BY girls would not be like me, nor would my chosson be as tolerant as understanding as I think he is. Just goes to show. And heads up all you girs looking for a normal guy! Sounds like s.f. has one here...

Ms. Shtark and Special - Thanx. It's weird that you say I am being okay about the singles issue. Like I so feel I am one of them. Just because I B"H got such a gift from Hashem does not make me a different person or change everything I felt and believed until now. Whatever i thought about singles until now, I still feel in me. I hope I always do.

Geshmaker - I take that as a compliment!

As far as internet in our home... It's under thought and discussion I guess.

Last but not least, SemGirl - You can post whenever you want. It's what you say not what number comment it is. I hope you rested well. You deserve it. Can't wait to hear from you, ans yes, to get to my e-mailing...


2/09/2006 2:53 PM
shtaiger said...
my darling elisheva, beautiful post, so so sweet.

2/09/2006 3:22 PM
shtaiger said...
you know who i am don't you?

2/09/2006 3:25 PM
Bracha said...

That was such a lovely post.... So heartwarming.. I can just imagine sitting next to you and hearing you say exactly what you wrote...It was from the bottom of your heart..



P.S. What about my email?

2/09/2006 3:57 PM
shtaiger said...
brachale, be so kind and send me an email, so that i too can have the honor of making a connection with you.

2/09/2006 4:14 PM
Mata Hari said...
Eli - you have a gift for expressing yourself in writing. Everything you said rang true.
Thanks for sharing.

2/09/2006 4:36 PM
geshmaker said...
yes that was a compliment, i think your blog i finaly where you wanted it to be.

shtaiger: are you who "I" think you are?!?!

2/09/2006 5:46 PM
ms. shtark said...
hey geshmaker, thought you were done with this blog!! just couldn't stay away, huh???

2/09/2006 6:12 PM
Lvnsm27 said...
Beautiful post, thanks for sharing

2/09/2006 7:46 PM
Okee said...
your post was so real and true -i really enjoyed reading it. It sound as if you are really tuning into your heart, head and soul. Kudos-it's not always so easy to do that. mazel tov, and may you be as wise in all your future decisions.

(I don't know about you, but decision making is the worst!)

2/09/2006 7:57 PM
eli said...
Elisheva, I have to take strong objection. You are by no means a "plain girl", why would you say that for. And I highly doubt that those girls "on a higher level", come up to your toenails in Chesed and sensitivity.

2/09/2006 8:40 PM
Elisheva said...
Ivnsm - Thank you.

Okee J - Welcome to our little blog family here. And thank you too for those comments.

Seems like I was able to put some of my thoughts down properly. The truth is, when I try, it like doesn't work. It's when I'm all emotional and just want so badly to convey my thoughts and at the same time my enotions, and I just let it all out, that it works. B"H, I am glad, and I hope to be able to post about some of the issues I mentioned in the right way too.

Eli - that is so sweet of you. Okay I will grant that I try to be a mentch and do chessed and stuff. But I totally admit there are girls who do that too and manage a level I envy.


2/09/2006 10:02 PM
s.f. said...
did u mean to type it could"not" realy happen ? btw i m awed by the self control u & sg have as not to meet each other, do u ppl even know each others last name? & about the bachur i dont mind if there is somone here looking for a long term r"y future, i m quiet close with the guy, & know his fam. so let me know any of u lol

2/09/2006 10:55 PM
Pragmatician said...
Well written, keeping your anonymity yet giving away the details that matter without the necessity to identify anyone in particular.
I don't know about housework, I think it's combinable with a part time job, but if you plant to rent a huge house that might not be true.

2/10/2006 10:41 AM
shtaiger said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/10/2006 10:58 AM
shtaiger said...
geshmaker, who do you think i am?

2/10/2006 10:59 AM
specialx2 said...
oy shtaiger - BEHAVE

2/10/2006 11:07 AM
shtaiger said...
whats your problem?

2/10/2006 12:24 PM
shtaiger said...
whats your problem?

2/10/2006 12:24 PM
Elisheva said...
Please, I don't want to have to delete comments. I love everyone's input, but like in a nice way. It's best all around.

Thanks prag, and no, we just plan on renting a basement, so I hope it won't be too much.

Good Shabbos and Shalom

2/10/2006 2:25 PM
chanie said...
i don't know if i already said this or not, but mazel tov to you, and i hope you enjoy many long happy years together. you sound very happy...good luck with your shaitel (i have the same problem as you...i dread wearing one!)

2/11/2006 8:57 PM
Anonymous said...
i m sorry for posting as anon but i couldent get myself to say this any other way but u have got yourself aspot in my heart & since your engagmeant i have been saying a kapitel thilim evrey day for your future succes, (i generaly do this for a fam. member )being i wont know the day of marreige i guess ill say the whole thing, best whises & may the 2 of u always find favor in each others eyes,& have many children, with the wealth to sustain them,& lots of nachs & good health, & all your hearts desires for ruchniyus & gasmyus should be fulfilld

2/11/2006 10:16 PM
Elisheva said...
Chanie, you're so welcome! And at least I am not alone in the sheitel thing...

Anon, gosh, that was sooo touching. I have no way to thank you. This is like something that can never be repayed. It may sound funny, but I also have a lot of people that I know from the blogs in mind in my tefillos. Even though i don't know names or like exact details, I feel thier emotion and daven for things to work out by them.


2/12/2006 12:00 AM
chanie said...
what do you mean, 'ur so welcome', just out of curiosity...

2/12/2006 12:55 AM
The Real Neo said...

Mazel tov, mazel tov! I haven't been to your blog in a long time. The content early on was not shayach for me to see (not a judgement).

I read this post about your enggement, thoughts on your chosson, IM"Y your marriage, frumkite, this blog....and I just want to tell you your entry is inspiring in its sincerity. The love and respect and hope you show for yourself, others and the world are truly fantastic and not much seen in such a synical world.

It is also quite amazing how your sincerity and pureness of emotion and description of experience such as trying on your gown can reach even male readers who can experience nothing like it yet feel true joy for you.

I had hoped this comment to be more elegant but alas, not so. I want to thank you for showing that such qualities do indeed exist in this world. I want ot thank you for being a shining example of what a frum jew should be in terms of being a lght and being able to have people of all levels, genders and hashkafas relate to you and most importantly, well, at least importantly, thanks for reminding a synical old fella like myself that i can still be truly happy for someone else.

you should merit to have a lovig, fulfilling and always growing marriage towards echother, towards your fellow jews and of course, Hashem.

2/12/2006 8:27 AM
Elisheva said...
Chanie, it was just like for your Mazel Tov wishes and your words on my blog. Maybe it was the wrong term. Like they say, whatever, lol...

Tailor, you left me speechless. Maybe I should just stop at that. I feel humbled because I don't see myself the way it sounds here, but it is so nice to know if I am doing the right thing and making a kiddush Hashem. I won't deny it is a very good feeling.

As far as some of the qualities you describe, some say today it isn't too good because you can get hurt that way. I try not to be naive but to still keep like upbeat. It isn't easy and for that I have to thank a few role models, who I can't name here, but they would shocked to know how their attitudes have affecting me, even though they probably wouldn't dream that like anybody took notice of the way they are.

Okay, I have to go. Snowman building time again! This time it looks like good potential...


2/12/2006 9:55 AM
Eshet Chayil said...
I haven't had tome to post on other people's blogs, but I wanted to tell you (since I'm snowed in) that this was an amazing post. Hoep you're doing well, and stay always as sweet as you are.

2/12/2006 11:18 AM
Semgirl said...
Dont worry, I haven't forgot.. working on it right now..

2/12/2006 11:25 AM
Anonymous said...
Wow this post is really drawing out all the mushy comments. On a side note maybe Semgirl and Elisheva should get together for a snowball fight today. Maybe you can even invite some of the other female bloggers to participate.

2/12/2006 3:49 PM
Anonymous said...
great idea, where will we meet?

2/12/2006 4:44 PM
Semgirl said...
Why is everything so quiet today.. Did you have a snow day today, Shev..

2/13/2006 3:41 PM
shtaiger said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/13/2006 4:02 PM
shtaiger said...
hey chanie, can you please send me an email at you dont give your email address in your profile just that funny website, so if you email me ill get it thanks.

2/13/2006 4:05 PM
specialx2 said...
so shtaiger - who actually ARE you?

2/13/2006 4:11 PM
Elisheva said...
No, they had yeshiva today where I work, just no transportation and it was like a nightmare all the cropping off and everything. At least, i leave before pick up.

The snowman didn't work out too well yesterday. The snow was too light and not sticky. A blog snowball fight would have been fun. I guess we'll do it after the shower idea...


2/13/2006 7:08 PM
ms. shtark said...
went tubing today - you should try that instead of a snowball fight!
so elisheva is there gonna be a single's table at your wedding? lol

2/13/2006 7:22 PM
shtaiger said...
anyone out there now im feeling lonely.

2/13/2006 8:44 PM
ms. shtark said...
shtaiger are you someone else that we should know about

2/13/2006 9:42 PM
Elisheva said...
Shtaiger, I do appreciate all kinds of thoughts and comments, but this is not a chat room. Okay?

Ms. Shtark, tubing sounds like great fun! Only here with not too much privacy outdoors, I can't exactly even go sleding in the snow. Too many guys around to start like waiting for the one moment your skirt by mistake... you know. So until we make it a big trip, it will have to be more plain stuff.


2/13/2006 10:52 PM
Me said...
Hi Elisheva - I just wanted to wish you a BIG mazal tov!

It's obvious that you and your chosson are communicating openly, which is the most important thing for a wonderful life together. And your comment about not needing to know every little irrelevant thing about your chosson (and vicec versa) is spot on.

Keep your mind and eyes on the big picture - marriage and a happy Jewish life together - and the little annoying things, like sheitels and wedding seating plans won't aggravate or stress you too much.

Live your lives for each other, Torah and Hashem - everything else is really irrelevant...

2/14/2006 1:03 AM
Anonymous said...
Shtaiger why don't you get a life?

2/14/2006 1:24 AM
skibum said...
"can't exactly even go sleding in the snow. Too many guys around to start like waiting for the one moment your skirt by mistake... you know."
Your kidding.......!?
Ever hear of pants under your skirt...
Besides normally when you are tubing its sooooo cold you need three layers so everything is covered all the time
PS guys don't go to the ski slope to pick up s, thats done after in the bar

2/14/2006 11:04 AM
skibum said...
should be read as
PS guys don't go to the ski slope to pick up girls, thats done after in the bar

2/14/2006 11:05 AM
BZMGBIG said...
where did bmg-bochur dissapear to?
do you think he really gave up blogging?
or is he

2/14/2006 1:31 PM
chaya goldie said...
So elisheve works for a yeshiva office.I don't understand how she can continue this blog with her chossen learning im BMG.All yungerleit must have premission to have internet from one of the four yeshiva poskim and I can't imagine them giving permission for the sake of this blog unless elisheve turns it into a mussar blog.I miss her already.

2/14/2006 2:24 PM
ms. shtark said...
uh yeah, if your skirt flies up while tubing or skiing, i should hope it wouldn't be too attractive - like you should be wearing snow pants or sweatpants at the least! you get covered in snow cuz it blows all over you!! soory, i don't go to a bar after. but could use a really hot coffee or hot cocoa. whew, it was cold yesterday!!!!

2/14/2006 2:26 PM
Semgirl said...
Elisheva, I really miss hearing from you. Hope all is well.

2/14/2006 3:16 PM
shtaiger said...
ms. shtark, you should definitely know of me. anyway, youre the one with a hidden profile.
elisheva, i didnt expect such sharp words from you. especially since you know who i really am.
any of you female skiers out there, please let me know when and where maybe we can arrange something.
love you all.

2/14/2006 3:57 PM
Elisheva said...
shtaiger - I have no clue who you are. Either you are trying to pull my leg and fool everyone reading here, or I am slow to pick up someone changing an identity. Either way, no I don't know you, and I'm sorry, but like this is still not a chat room. No offense. I just don't want it getting to silly and offensive remarks.

Ms. Shtark and SkiBum - My parents say it is lo silbash to wear pants even for skiing. Maybe my chosson will let after we are married, but for now, that is out. And let me tell you, I once was skiing down a little hill here a little out, like by a side place, whatever, like a few years back, and I was wearing wool leg-warmers, and thick tights and then thick thigh-hi's on top, topped by socks under my boots, and I fell like pretty embarrassingly and my brother is like, "Elisheva! There are boys here!" I was like, so?

So I learned to never take anything for granted. But maybe I am too suspicious. That would be a nice thought.

SemGirl, I was busy and whatever. Hope to get to writing soon.

Chaya Goldie (do I know you? guess you wouldn't know...) - hi. I don't have kids yet so like not in any schools. And besides no one exactly knows about my going online besides my chosson. If we decide we'll keep it, then no one will know, and like there are hundreds of people like that in Lakewood, we all know that, with or without the takanos. And if we decide no, then that will be that for now.


2/14/2006 4:12 PM
skibum said...
My parents say it is lo silbash to wear pants even for skiing.....?????????
You're joking!
Now I get it, like the woman in Trim Gym that doesnt own a pair of sweat pants, hot pants or even leggings and jogs on the treadmill in p-hose........ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Seriously you dont even have sweat pants for pj's?

2/14/2006 5:44 PM
bmgbochur said...
Yes I have left blog world, but I'm returning to wish elisheva mazel tov, and also to mention that I am not shtaiger- ok geshmaker!

2/14/2006 8:24 PM
ms. shtark said...
uh elisheva, do you wear pants to sleep at least?

2/14/2006 8:28 PM
ms. shtark said...
shtaiger, don't know who you are - if you are geshmaker that is pretty sad and i don't care to know either. just be normal.

2/14/2006 10:35 PM
s.f said...
about having net at home after chasuna, imho, get out of here, no doubht we will miss u, but for your own selfish benefit it just aint worth it, but specificly keep in mind if u have it hubby to be will "chap" a gesmhak in it & u dont know where it can lead, it has a reputation of runing the best guys if u need refrences i can get them for u, its a danger for perfectly normal ppl the decison of course is yours (btw as a shalom bayis tip never tell hubby now or in future u r carfull for "his" ruchnyis guys dont take well to that

2/14/2006 11:07 PM
Anonymous said...
Bmg bochur
what do you mean you came back to wish elisheva Mazel tov as i recall you already did that on her previous post. Unless you think you have a weekly obligation to wish her so again. Also if you left blogland how would you know what is being commented on the blogs? Something smells fishy.

2/15/2006 6:32 AM
geshmaker said...
i know i said i was leaving this blog, but i do check it out every now and then to see if it gets interesting.
so far not much. although "shtaiger" does seem like the frontrunner to try and fill the void left by BMGB's alleged reformation.

above anon: what the heck are you doing up at 6:32 AM?!?!
unless you were up all night online ;) !!
and please don't tell me "some people get up early to learn" because i would hope someone who does that has more of a life then to be checking blogs at that hour of the day.
all that aside, good point!

one more thing- how did a relatively innocent post about gowns and sheitels end up with guys looking up skirts on the slopes, and picking up girls at "the bar".
and elisheva, i would hope that even the most bored and desperate guy in world has something better to do then wait around in the snow, freezing his butt off waiting for the tiny chance he might get a long-distance,nano-second peek at your knees :).

with that thought, maybe it's time i get back involved over here.

2/15/2006 12:29 PM
ms. shtark said...
geshmaker, why is it time for you to get back involved, to put everyone in their place - so you can show everyone the light? that was of course not the main thread - i think i happened to mention that i went tubing so elisheva said that it can't be done in lakewood - not that you would be doing it on your front lawn anyways. but yeah, i agree with you it is quite pathetic if guys want to freeze to do that. very sad. like i only went down twice because it was so cold, i thought my toes and fingers would crack off.

2/15/2006 1:20 PM
Anonymous said...
hey people get a load of this!

2/15/2006 3:10 PM
geshmaker said...
i would like to publicly apoligize to BMG-Bochur for even hinting that he might be shtaiger. now that shtaiger has started his own blog, it is obvious that they are not the same person, and i would like to say I'M SORRY.

i will not attack shtaiger on this blog as this is not the place for that.

2/15/2006 3:44 PM
ms. shtark said...
wow geshmaker i am finally really impressed. if there is anyone who should be attacked it is shtaiger. come on, let me see you dish it out!

2/15/2006 7:36 PM
shtaiger said...
ms shtark, i'm surprised you fell for geshmaker's good-boy show. please don't mess around with me.

2/15/2006 9:48 PM
shtaiger said...
can't believe nobody visited my blog.

2/15/2006 9:49 PM
Anonymous said...
Shtaiger its because your a sicko. Your blog is plain out sick.

2/15/2006 10:37 PM
geshmaker said...
shtaiger you piece of crap, i already "messed" with you about 6 hours ago but you apparently chose to "moderate" my comment and leave them off your blog. i can't say that this bothers me too much, as sure that everything i wrote was going through the mind of any normal person who read the pathetic perverted opening post of your very sad blog.
i'm sorry that i am bringing this to your blog, as that was not my intention originaly, but if shtaiger is going to moderate comments on that blog and only put in the ones that fit his/her agenda, i have to defend my reputation and let people know that i DID try to dish it out.

2/15/2006 10:46 PM
geshmaker said...
oh and one more thing...
i'm shocked that someone who has access to the internet can still be this desperate. GET A LIFE. and put up my earlier comment.

2/15/2006 10:48 PM
ms. shtark said...
so elisheva are you getting married in bais faiga - or are there any other places to get married in lakewood?

2/15/2006 11:31 PM
kishkhed said...
rav miller has all the answers!
and me too of course
mazal tov

2/16/2006 2:19 AM
Anonymous said...
Elisheva, married women are allowed to think for themselves. If hubby says he doesn't like what I am wearing or he objects to the sweatsuit I wear around the house, I tell him he doesn't have to wear it. I wear what is comfortable and practical for me to wear. As the one who is wearing it, only I know what that is.
In the long run, guys get bored with ladys who cant or wont think for themselves.

2/16/2006 2:16 PM
Anonymous said...
Whew,anonmous you sound like a real "isha keshara haoshe rotzen baaloh".Please don't corrupt elisheve or any of us others out there.P.S. Can't you find a nicer way to let your husband know how much you want to wear it without being so abrasive?

2/16/2006 2:43 PM
chaya goldie said...
It is sad how women act as if their husbands don't have feelings.In general I think society berates men and particulary yeshiva bochrim and gives them so little credit for what they do.Imagine what would be said about a man who just sits around in pajamas all day and talks to his wife like anonamous talks to her husband.(while I'm sure there are men who do they wouldn't boast it)I would like like to make a long posting about we should apreciate and respect yeshiva bochrim (with all faults included) but don't want to hijack elisheves blog.

2/16/2006 3:25 PM
ms. shtark said...
actually just want to give my opinion here. i am not married so i can't be a rebbetzin or anything but if you have an understanding relationship, and you respect each other, you would both be able to give in and state your opinions like adults (as you are). if he doesn't like you to wear hot pink, and you don't like a few of his ties, i think in a healthy relationship you would give in and follow each other's wishes. compromise is the word!! also, how on earth did we get to this topic anyways?

2/16/2006 4:39 PM
shtaiger said...
thanks for the support,chaya goldeleh, you're a great masculinist!!

2/16/2006 5:07 PM
Anonymous said...
I'm not abrasive with my husband at all. We are equals and partners. We respect each other greatly.Telling a kalla that she can think for herself and not be subservient to her husband is not corrupting her.
I have no desire to tell my husband what to wear. When I am forced to point out that his shirt is less than spotless, it really bothers me. If a person is old enough to get married, they are old enough to decide for themselves what to wear.

Ms. Shtark, we got on this topic when Elisheva said she hopes her chossen lets her wear pants under her skirt for winter sports. If she's old enough to get married, she's old enough to dress herself. IYH, when you get married,you'll see that there's compromise and then there times where you just have to agree to disagree(which is also a form of compromise)
Chaya Goldie, in my experience,it's usually the opposite. It's the men who treat their wives like servants and expect to be served hand and foot. In some circles so many women work like dogs both in and out of the home just so he can learn. She serves him with Moonie-like devotion and he takes her for granted. Are you sure you're not really a man?
Lastly, anyone(man or woman) who doesn't think for themselves and have their own opinions is boring. A man who is secure within himself doesn't want a subservient wife who always agrees with him.

2/16/2006 5:30 PM
Flatbushyid said...
Anon above me

I will just ask you what the torah meant when it says "vho yimshol bach" I am a married man and its nice for womwn to think we want real go getter wifes full of their own opinions, however I don't think that is a natural trait of women and don't think that helps the marriage. Of course their should be dialogue on both sides but certain final decisions should be the mans domain and certain ones the ladies. It sounds to me you don't agree to that statement.


Did you see this apikorus, ben avaus's blog?

ms stark

How is everything?


I sent you an e mail mazal tov, now here is a public one, mazal tov, all the brechaos people wished you should be mekuim.

2/16/2006 5:47 PM
Chillin in The Lake said...
I am married and I can say some guys like very independant girls and some guys like a girl more dependant on him.
Anyway we all know that marriage is compromise but there can not be 2 kings in one castle the final word has to be someones. There will never be 2 people who agree on everything let alone a guy and girl. But there are issues (in each situation different ones) that there needs to be a final word. In halacha issues a wife can not tell a husband if you dont like it dont do it.

2/16/2006 6:17 PM
ms. shtark said...
anon above flatbushyid, first of all i don't mean to say this in a rude way, but if you really do have your own opinion, why don't you sign a name? I know that screen names are also anonymous but once you blog a bit and sign with a certain name, you get yourself an identity and ppl get to recognize a bit of your personality. so just wondering why you don't sign (i am not saying this in an offensive way)

i agree with you that sometimes you can agree to disagree but it should not be often.
also, i think it's ok to let your husband know if he spilled some coffee on his shirt. he is human and may not have noticed.
"in some circles so many women work like dogs both in and out of the home just so he can learn"

you say "just" so he can learn like that's all he is doing with his time and he is wasting his time(i'd understand if he's drinking coffee the whole time). i know this will sound very idealistic but i mean it. Starting off a home learning is a plus and for the first years - it can only build a stronger foundation for a Jewish home, i would feel honoured to work (if i am able of course)so we can have a Torah atmosphere. And the men do a lot to help at home - a lot of them make suppers and help clean the house - you cannot generalize like that that women are slaves. yes it is a big sacrifice and it's not easy to work and then come home to kids and laundry but it's for a good purpose. of course when the time comes, if there are a few kids, and the wife can't work then i think it's time for the husband to go to work.
and yes, some things are in the men's domain and some for women.
fy, same old. everything is going great.

2/16/2006 6:25 PM
chaya goldie said...
to mrs. anon;perhaps if I was a man I would think differantly but I have heard too many women say they are doing things their husbands don't like (one is to many...).I don't think telling your husband that you don't have to wear it is the most gentle way to disagree with him,particularly if the issue is halacha (pants).While I obviosly don't speak for men I think human nature is that a husband does not want his wife to be dependent on him in some areas but doesn't want his authority challenged in others particullarly halacha.Since most men and women do try to be good spouses I regret starting this thread which will only cause problems and I will comment no further on it.

2/16/2006 6:43 PM
Semgirl said...
Wow, MS.. I sincerely wish you get what you describe, with all my heart. But you really do need to live in Lakewood for a while and take off your rose-colored glasses.

2/16/2006 6:49 PM
Anonymous said...
In terms of pants and halacha there are valid opinions that allow for it and I only wear it around the house or in the gym.
And no, chillin, there cant be 2 kings in a castle. Thats why men and women are different. That doesn't mean that the king and queen cant rule together. If we disagree on an issue involving halacha, we call a rov. He can tell us if there is a valid halachic opinion that allows for something. If I need medical advice i call a Dr. If i need legal advice I call a lawyer. Thus couples always have whom to consult.
Chaya Goldie, this isn't the shtetel. Today's women are educated and often have their own careers. And, yes, alot of us want to learn more too. In the heim alot of women were illiterate. There was no such thing as wives working as programmers or accts. to support the husband or just to make ends meet. In todays society women and men are alot more equal. To ask a woman to go back 100 years when she goes home simply is not realistic.
Fltbushyid, some of us really are independent in personality and thought. Depending on whether a woman was encouraged to think for herself or not, it is indeed our nature.

2/16/2006 7:40 PM
Elisheva said...
Okay, sorry for my long absence. Sometimes you accomplish things and sometimes you don't. I guess this was a hishtadlus week. Like tried on stuff, checked out stuff, and got very little. Oh well. I guess there is always tomorrow.

About all the issues - First of all I'd like to give my opinion. I have e-mailed with shtaiger a little (I didn't realize it was him), and I think he is basically a nice guy and means well. I just think he doesn't know how to come across the right way. (sorry shtaiger, I just feel you will need to learn a little, no harm meant). So I do think his comments here were a little off, but let's hope he will limit it here to just comments on the issues. Obviously private e-mails are different where different things can be discussed that aren't apropriate in public.

About the anonymous advice about the pants issue. First of all, like I agree with Ms. Shtark, it is so much easier if you use a name.

Also, I think people so mix up being subservient and being a mentch and knowing your place. Chillin put it best I think and also Ms. Shtark. I am a pretty independent minded person I think and I think most readers of my blog will agree with that. But that does not mean I think that if I listen to what Hashem tells me then I am a subservient dog.

I guess this needs like a post of its own. What I am saying is that I don't take just anyone's word for what it is Hashem wants of me. I look into stuff and ask questions and maybe the teachers here in the girl's high-schools don't like that. But I do.

But you have to decide who you will trust and who's minhag or ideals you will follow and then listen even if you disagree! Like do I think I can pasken halacha? No I do not. Maybe I know what to ask, but I don't know how to pasken. So there can be no such thing as "I won't take such a p'sak." Once you ask the people you trust you have to listen, not because you are subservient, but like because it is my own ideal and I feel I should do that now.

I know this is probably not halacha, the pants thing (or maybe it is? See how little I know...) But still, it is a way of living that you choose to live and a it is a feeling in yiddishkeit. And chillin is right, I hope my chosson will listen to me in things having to do with like what I know, but I will listen to him in things having to do with halacha for sure and even yidishkeit. Could it be that I will sometimes disagree? I guess so. But I choose who I will marry and it is someone I trust will make desicions I will belive he means for our good and then after I choose that, I have to learn to live with that. Otherwise like it can be all chaos with each spouse doing their own thing.

Maybe this sounds idealistic, I can't say I know yet, but this makes sense to me. Like girls hear the word subservient and they get all hysterical, but like telling your husband you could care less for what he believes, like I don't see how that can be good for the marriage. Good for you maybe, but not like for the marriage. (Does it sound like I've been reading marrige books? I have, lol!)

Like if he would tell me what material outfit will be most comfortable to wear, then it would be normal for me to tell him, I am wearing it so let me. If he still would care, then that is not the type of guy I would marry. But if he says he thinks it is not tzniusdik or allowed in halacha, then even if I don't think so, I will go with him. Now, before we got engaged, we checked to see that we are basically compatible in our beliefs and where we are heading. And I don't think he will go with all the things my parents did. But if we disagree on some things, I will willingly go with his opinion. That is being smart, not subservient, I think.

Okay, enough of that. Ms. Shtark, I so hope you get what you wish for. You deserve it. And with all due respect to my dear friend SemGirl, Lakewood has like all types. Yes there are those who make you feel so like disillusioned, but I have a family where my brothers are in Yeshiva and my brother-in-law. And I know others too, friends family etc. There are truly those who do it, mean it, and have lives I so envy. I only hope we can be like them and not like the ones who make us lose faith.

And at the risk of being a total neb, no, in our house the girls don't wear pajama pants either, only under a nightgown or nightshirt. That doesn't even bother me, I think is is more feminine. In the cold, like when skiing, or if I could go bike riding (I wish...) I would love to be allowed to do that with pants on underneath


2/16/2006 7:46 PM
anonlady said...
ok everyone, i have a screen name.
A woman is supposed to be subservient to Hashem alone.
Unlike other religions, we do not worship a man.
As long as something is within the realm of halacha, it is mutar. My husband and I also have similar minhagim, so we basically agree. If he wants to take on a chumra, that doesn't mean I have to. We agree on that as well.

2/16/2006 7:59 PM
s.f. said...
about pants well it is a halacha shaila, many (minchas yiotzchok for exam. for the guys here lol ) rule its not allowed, i actuley know first hand of a rav in lkwd that rules that way, so shevi m wondering who your dad asks lol

2/16/2006 10:25 PM
Jewboy said...
I really mean no offense, but the last post got really hard to read with all the likes. Perhaps after writing a post you should go back and erase all the likes. That would like help me like read your post so much like better.

2/16/2006 11:12 PM
ms. shtark said...
elisheva, well said.
s.f. - pants is a halacha shaila and everyone should follow their rav (or find a rav that will give them the answer they want!! lol)

semgirl - i may sound idealistic - i know i do slightly, but there are guys out there like that. i have brothers who live like that. they have tremendous respect for their wives and they do a large part of the house work as well to help. no, they don't live glamorous lives but they have meaning to their lives. i see it first hand. i also work in the professional world with irrelgious and non - Jewish ppl and i see that wealth and glamor does not guarantee happiness - all the fancy dinners and cruises and newest ski equipment cannot give you a happy home - all that glitters is not gold. It's the ideals that a marriage is built on that counts.
yes, a home like that may seem to have less glamor (and i am finding that most learning boys may be less sophisticated because they are less out there in the world but it's healthy for a marriage for the guy to be less worldly. he will have less of a wandering eye and less to compare his wife to).
anonlady - thanks for giving yourself a "name". yes we are only subservient to Hashem to the highest extent. But you are answerable to your husband and he to you - part of the give and take relationship.
ok, i will stop my drasha. just my thoughts for the night.

2/16/2006 11:12 PM
Anonymous said...
check out this video:
its great- and watch it to the end, its about 60 seconds, about giving some time to your kids. its a great lesson.

2/17/2006 1:02 AM
Chillin in The Lake said...
Anonlady what is the realm of halacha???? Im sorry but there are many places where there are different ways to pasken and different Poskim have different psokim (a tounge twister). So by you as long as someone holds like you, you can go after that way, even if your husband would hold otherwise. Well, BH in most frum torah observing homes where there is Yiras Shomayim, you would follow a specific rav and the way the husband would hold (which should be the same), being there are many different ways to follow. Im not talking about chumros Im talking Halacha. (Besides who decides whats halacha and whats a chumra?) I dont want to be mean but Torah and Halacha is not a Dr. or Lawyer. If one is no good find another. Its not the cleaners, if one cant get the stain out take it to another. It does not work that way, you can be playing with fire.

Elisheva, pants are a Halacha sheila disscused by many poskim. BH you seem to get it, that as in your parents home you followed whomever your father held was the proper way, so too in your future home with your husband it will be who he feels will be his Halachic authority. Good for you. There are so many more important things in life, you have a good attitude towards things that some people get all worked up over. Especially in Halacha issues, if your brought up with Yiras Shomayim you learn not to shop heterim or get upset when a psok is not the way you wanted. (BTW I allow my wife to wear pants under a skirt because thats how my Rav holds.) I also feel the same about girls who dont want to follow, in what their eyes looks to be more leinient. Halacha is one of the foundations of a jewish home.
Sorry I went long.

2/17/2006 1:07 AM
Elisheva said...
Gosh, just got caught in the rain on the way home. Totally not prepared. Came outside, it was like sunny and a second later - pouring! Now that can get embarrassing...

Anyway, I didn't have to go right in to the erev Shabbos preparations cause I had to come up to change, so I can steal a few minutes for my blog!

AnonLady (and thanks for the name), I posted right after you did and didn't see your latest comment when I did. I don't think what I was referring to really was what you meant. I think you are coming from a very different outlook than a lot of us here on this blog and surely me.

A lot of what you say is true, but like up to a point. I just don't see what all the today, society, and all that stuff has to do with anything. Again, I am not exactly the defender of frum yiddishkeit here, but I do belive in stuff even though I am maybe not the typical perfect girl. Still I think we have a way of life which can be beautiful. I stress can be, because trust me, I so know about the fakers here and the ones who do it just because it is an easy and lazy lifestyle for them. But the ones who take it seriously are not drinking coffee all day and are putting in hours and hours of mental exertion and then still helping loads at home with housework and I know a few younger ladies, some from my office and others like family, whose husbands stay up at night with the baby and they say that it is a lifesaver. Okay, so I am talking about those who are doing it for real.

Getting back to my point, people say some things over and over and it is repeated like as if it means anything here. Like today is different. Women are educated. They are doctors and lawyers. Fine. So I am pretty smart too I think (and oh so humble, lol!) and got a pretty intensive education. Does that make me a posek? Does being the top doctor make a lady a posek? Or because she is a top lawyer? Like would a lawyer operate on himself because he is a top lawyer? I know this is an emotional issue, but let's put aside our feminine side and use some logic here. (It's hard, I admit, I am not too rational when I get all mushy about something. Ask any of my brothers, a whole day all I get is eye-rolling and "there she goes again. You're not thinking!")

My point is you go to a doctor for medicine like regardless of how smart, emancipated or educated you are. So psak is for poskim and it is the husband's realm of things according to the Torah. I am almost positive (guys, mekoros please...) it says specifically that a woman should follow the husband's minhag. And isha k'sheira and all that. So where it is style or taste, okay, we can say this is me and why should he care (obviously not counting when we are dressing for him, let's say we are talking about when we are home alone doing housework). But if he says that the Rav he asks says it is not good in halacha, then telling him where he could go is having two kings in one castle and I can't see that it is a healthy attitude.

Of course we marry a guy we trust will ask normal poskim and not follow every 'latest' chumra in yeshiva (my chosson has told me some real doozers!) And we should have dialogue and discuss our feelings so he understands why we are doing things and I guess the other way around too. But when it happens that there is a disagreement, what being educated or the shtetl has anything to do with this is like so beyond me.

Okay, I should be changed by now and have to go pick some stuff up still for Shabbos. They are calling. Sorry about the 'likes'. I know it was very bad last time. I was writing in a hurry and it happens then. I meant to go it over, but had no time and figured better to just post.

Shalom and Good Shabbos,

2/17/2006 12:54 PM
wannabe said...

"Romancing the Bloggers...

For many people, the question is, "would you date someone who has a blog?" The implication is that said person who has a blog will undoubtedly blog in some way about your relationship. But increasingly, for bloggers, the question is morphing and becomes "would you date someone who didn't have a blog?"

Over at WebProNews, Ken Yarmosh talks about why he'd like to date women bloggers:

It may sound funny but blogging may actually help foster more successful dating relationships. Why? Well just take a look at their blog either before or after a date and you'll begin to get a pretty decent picture of their beliefs, ideology, and interests. If their blog exists in a social environment like MySpace or Xanga, you can also get a pretty good idea as to who they are "interacting" with on a regular basis - yeah, I'm probably going to stay away from the girl who has tons of comments from other guys, she may be a bit too flirty. Would I date someone who doesn't have a blog? Yes, I guess I would. But blogging is attractive. It means the wheels are turning upstairs. It shows that someone is observant, pensive, and engaged in their world. "

2/17/2006 1:21 PM
Anonymous said...

2/17/2006 1:23 PM
chanie said...
where is everyone tonight??

2/18/2006 10:14 PM
skibum said...
"Of course we marry a guy we trust will ask normal poskim and not follow every 'latest' chumra in yeshiva (my chosson has told me some real doozers!)"

The best is when men come home with chumras' just for their wives (stuff that dont effect them) and they themselves are maikel (like, you cant wear pants which doesn't effect him)

2/19/2006 11:51 AM
s.f. said...
ms shtark, were u just being agreeble or did i miss somthing?

2/19/2006 10:30 PM
ms. shtark said...
s.f., sorry i am a bit confused. what are u referring to? do i detect a note of cynicism?

2/20/2006 9:33 AM
Anonymous said...
skibum-how would you react if your husband decided to wear a kilt from now on?

2/20/2006 2:25 PM
skibum said...
Anonymous said...
wtf? Is that a chumra?
A kilt to bed would be nice, as is pants to bed

2/20/2006 6:37 PM
Semgirl said...
Check this one out :

2/21/2006 3:04 PM
Datingmaster, Jerusalem said...
we really love you and care about you and share your joy

2/22/2006 2:58 AM
s.f. said...
ms. shtark, well i did not relize what u added to what i wrote,(unless did it seem i was saying its defntly not allowed? it was not meant that way at all)u detect well btw,

2/22/2006 10:56 PM
s.f said...
elisheva, (if u r still reading & not in the middle of sheva brochos ) get ahold of r millers book a career of happines, its a great book about builing a jewish home, also if i may , my feeling is it would be of great benefit, for boy& girl getting marreid aside the regu. kallah class/ choson shmuss, for each of them to hear it from the other sides point if i m not mistaken there is a chsuve kollel fellow u feel close to if i were u i would ask him for a "talk" in prepairing for your future, g luck (i know u r prob. getting loads of advice from 1 & all, i had a freind a alter bachur when he finally got engaged, all his buddys were giving him sholom bayis tips, he told me i was so confused, what to do i had no idea but i sure know evreyones problems lol, but figured ill throw my 2 sence in anyhow)

2/22/2006 11:03 PM
ms. shtark said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/22/2006 11:26 PM
Anonymous said...
MS why did you delete your last comment you made a very salient point..

2/23/2006 7:00 PM
ms. shtark said...
just wanted to omit something there.
sf, i was agreeing with you when u said that if u want 2 know what's right, then you have to ask a rav (but once you ask you gotta follow what he says:-)
i did not think you were saying that pants are defitely not allowed (certainly hope not).

2/23/2006 7:39 PM
Elisheva said...
To all my readers and e-mail friends. No, I am not in middle of sheva brachos, lol! Not until after Purim. I just had a very hectic week. B"H accomlished and learned a lot. I still hope to post again. I really hope I will have the time.

I also hope to answer e-mails. They do mean so much to me and I learn a lot. I just can't always get online to respond and stuff.

MS. Did you make a point that I missed? You have great things to say always. I so hope to write you soon. And SG soon too!


2/23/2006 7:40 PM
Semgirl said...
Oh, I am so happy to see you back here. I am very busy too, so much that they are making assumptions on my blog, lol.. But I am never too busy to hear from you..

2/23/2006 9:07 PM
Anonymous said...
check this out

2/24/2006 10:00 AM
Semgirl said...
Why is everything so quiet today ??

2/26/2006 1:37 PM
skibum said...
because you and le7 have gone off to bigger and better things

2/26/2006 2:59 PM
Limey2001 said...
I need some help here... When asking shidduch info about a girl a friend of mine was told one of her "maylos" is she's a "muchna?" which i guess would mean obedient or submissive. Is that a quality ??? is that what we want our girls to be ?? why is that a mayla?!?

2/26/2006 5:36 PM
chaya goldie said...
It probaly depends on who you ask.Can't he decide on his own what type of girl he is looking for?

2/26/2006 6:18 PM
Semgirl said...
Limey, it sounds like you may actually be one of the smarter boys out there.Unfortunately, many BMG "top boys" (SIC), feel that girls who aren't meek and docile are "tough girls" .

That is, when these bochurim are 22, then 10-15 years later they are moaning and groaning, "my wife can't think for herself, I wish she could just make a lil decision in the grocery by herself, without asking me every lil thing" .

I wish you and your friend all the best in choosing a Shidduch wisely.

2/26/2006 9:24 PM
Limey2001 said...
SG the info came from another woman, why would a woman(rebitzen) think its a mayla??

2/27/2006 10:15 AM
Semgirl said...
Please tell me you aren't serious. Every single Shadchan, I have ever spoken to said to me "You don't want to appear too aggressive or domineering". If anything the men occasionally, say it ok to have a mind of your own on some things.

2/27/2006 10:28 AM
Limey2001 said...
I'm serious,
I was gonna go off on a tangent that, thats what the mechanchos want nowadays docile little baby making lambs with the "elites" running the show but i hope sincerely that this is an exception

2/27/2006 2:34 PM
Elisheva said...
Have been so absent, but to jump into this fray...

I think it really depends on the context of the word "muchna". It does sound pretty werid and frummy-frummy that way, and then SG is totally right.

But perhaps the woman who said it is not good with words. because in a certain way, like were were discussing before with listening to your husband if he doesn't let you wear pants and that other woman said she's tell him where to go, so like there i would be "machnia" to my husband and she would not. But not becuase i am a docile little lamb with no mind of her own, but because I believe it is healthy for the marriage and the Jewish way.

On the other hand I think her attitude was NEVER to be "muchna" and that can cause problems and friction. So like maybe you have to clarify. Did she mean she has no mind and will ask him before every thing she eats, "What's the bracha," and what should we buy and everything like that etc. Or does she mean that she knows when she must also listen to another opinion and not think the world revolves like just around her and what she thinks and feels.

Hope to post again soon. (Really, lol)


2/27/2006 3:37 PM
Limey2001 said...
"because I believe it is healthy for the marriage and the Jewish way"
The Jewish way? do you mean not to question the chumra's? not to question a teacher. Check out what happened to this lass....
(btw I'm not talking about emunas chachomim)

2/27/2006 6:24 PM
Elisheva said...
Why do you seem to have an agenda? Like I never said that. I said there are two sides. You seem to only see one dimension.

Sure I can question my teachers and all the chumras. Like if you read my blog, I am not exactly against questioning. But like after I question, if I get an answer, even though I may not like it, I have the hachna'a to know that it is the right thing to listen. If there is no good answer, then of course that means it is someone's made up chumras and not for me or anyone. But if there is an answer (and yes, like sometimes there are, even if we are not on the mood for them), then listening and being humble is a good Jewish trait. Saying like I will tell him where to go, in such a case, is not.


2/28/2006 12:04 AM
Limey2001 said...
The question is, if your teacher, husband, parent says you must do it because it says so in such and such sefer
(not a mainstream halacha sefer like the MB but like a neturei karta sefer and the like) would you listen because its the right thing to do or question its validity (every chumra has a mekor! (and if it doesn't i can make it up)
Are you gonna follow every chavas daas in hilchos niddah? or are you gonna say what does the Rov say.
My agenda is that unqualified teachers etc. quote halachos lechemura because they are ignorant and lack proper training to teach these halachos (or anything for that matter but thats a different subject) A story which comes to mind. My brother in law went to a yeshiva high school and the rebbe decided he's gonna teach the class what it means to have a rov (daas torah, emunas chachomim) with him as the Rov of course so he taught them hilchos shabbos with all types of chumras which made no sense, he obiviously had no shimush in that area at all. Now his father was in a pickle, he was of the mind that you never contradict a teacher but even when the guy spouts pure nonsense???
My other agenda is that so many people are writing halocho seforim that they seem to get a masochistic pleasure out making "gedarim". which brings to mind the famous story of the Netziv and the shoes.... Nowadays they are gonna ask these guys "where are the shoes"....
just remember one thing Ko'ach d'hetairah Adif!! it's not a "kuntz" to assur anything

2/28/2006 10:30 AM
Elisheva said...
Gosh, you must be hurting, I so agree with you on all this. Like totally! But you are so upset, you are not thinking.

WHen you got information on this girl, no one said (or at least that you posted here) that she is "muchna" to every crazy chumra or even normal ones but ones a normal Rav says we don't have to do. That's my point, that it just depends. A normal girl can be "muchna" to like you yourself said when they ask a normal Rav and he says this is a thing that should be done and is not some far-fetched chumra. So then there is also the thing of being "muchna" to the rav and not saying, let's say, "My father didn't do it, so I will tell you where to go." If it is a normal minhag and a normal Rav says it is, then a girl can be "muchna" in a very good way, which, yes, is definitley a plus I think.

I totally agree if she is some nebby frummy and is muchna to every chumra someone might dig up, then it is a big chisaron. It just depends.


2/28/2006 2:27 PM
yehuda said...
From my experiance most people who make fun of chumros do so because they are either unfamilar with the kloley horah or simply don't care too much about halacha anyhow.Whether I follow it or not rarely have I seen a chumrah with widesread acceptance amongst any group of frum yidden that does not have merit and extreme care should be taken with how we talk about them.Since this is a girls blog it is inapropriate to elaborate on the above over here.

2/28/2006 3:31 PM
yehuda said...
I hope I didn't offend anyone with my last sentence.I just meant that a girls blog is not the place to elaborate on klloley horah.I apoligize if offended anyone.

2/28/2006 3:35 PM
Limey2001 said...
Yehuda, i am not making fun of chumros just those who impose them on others, "klolley ho'raah" has nothing to do with this. I;m complaining about those who have never had shimush and wouldn't know a p'sak if they saw it in MB with english translation

2/28/2006 3:57 PM
ms. shtark said...
k that was annoying just tried to post something and it didn't work so here goes again.
limey, did your friend go out with her? was she muchna in a postive way? was he even able to tell?
k, i know i am being nosy but i basically agree with elisheva here. u really have to find out in what context she is a "muchna".
Maybe ask for an example that would explain the term in context with the potential shidduch. Is she a muchna in her overall personality? is she muchna in her emunas chachamim - not that one has to follow every chumra but one should not try to be finding every single kulah out there either. is she muchna to her parents and behaves with appropriate kavod to them (of course once she is married, they would be following their husbands first but a girl with kibud av vaem is a mailah) is she muchna to others when in a disagreement and has nothing to lose by admitting the other person is right and being mevater to keep the peace? it is all in the context. what does being a muchna mean??!!

2/28/2006 5:46 PM
Elisheva said...
Ms. Shtark, so well put. Exactly what i was trying to say, but said so much better. Thanx.

Yehuda, the apology was cuter than the line you were refering to. It's okay, I get what you mean, but you are right. I can see some girls who's blood boils when then read such a sentence, and one is a girl who is a dear blog friend, SemGirl! (Just teasing!)


2/28/2006 5:58 PM
geshmaker said...
limey: "Nowadays they are gonna ask these guys "where are the shoes"...."
ha'omer dovar b'shem omroh, meyvee g'eulah l'olam.
this is an old twist on the story with the netziv. it was not a "sharp line" made up by limey. legend has it that R' avrohom yehoshua S. (of brisk fame) said achar meah v'esrim when today's mechabrei s'forim show off their sfrorim they will be asked "un a'voo vennen a'yir shiech"!!

2/28/2006 5:59 PM
s.f. said...
dont enjoy jumping in to the warzone but i do think that its brains for a girl to be "mahcnia" to her hubby in ares which he belong to him while she runs her life with her g-d given brain,in all other areas, its simply the need men have its calld male ego,girls let him live a chumra up or down is not worth , what respecting your hubby does for him, in all areas & u gain from it a loving hubby ,i may also add it makes for a better home envierment when the man& women feel there respectiv roles correctly,

2/28/2006 10:34 PM
Limey2001 said...
Gesh, I didn't know r' AJ said it, and you're right i didn't make it up, wow you figured out that it was a twist on the story!!! good for you!

3/01/2006 10:46 AM
Limey2001 said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

3/01/2006 10:49 AM
chaya goldie said...
Given the chioce between risking being asked for a pair of shoes or risking being asked for my sefer I would rather risk the "shoe question" anyday.Thr main point of the many varaitions of the netziv story I heard was always meant to chide those who don't live their lives as productivly as they could not those who attempt to do something meaningfull and fail.Of course I know nothing about krummer seforim but the point remains.

3/01/2006 2:53 PM
geshmaker said...
lime, was that sarcasm or stupidity? with your usually eloquantly way of commenting i couldn't tell.

3/01/2006 4:21 PM
Mata Hari said...
geshmaker - that's eloquent

3/01/2006 4:40 PM
LakewoodWorkingGuy said...
Some people are no fun. Why can't they understand that sometimes a conversation invites a quick political jab at a present situation that is unfolding.

3/02/2006 9:23 AM
Elisheva said...
Sorry, I had so little time for my blog lately. I really still do hope to post something soon.

I deleted the last few comments. No offense LWG, I understand that it was meant as a pint, but I just would rather not go there. Especially now that I know something of what you guys are refering too, I just think this is not the place to discuss it. Thanx for understanding.

About the shoe story, my chosson actually told me that line on a date! Isn't that a cute coincidence. He didn't say it in a way to critize chumros, but more to say that every person should use their full potential - and that isn't necessarily always in writing seforim or whatever. But maybe that's just the way I took it.


3/02/2006 11:31 PM
Semgirl said...
I was wondering when, we were to going to hear from you..

3/03/2006 1:20 AM
LakewoodWorkingGuy said...
Thats Ok, at least I vented a bit. It's out of my system now.

3/03/2006 9:53 AM
Limey2001 said...
gesh-was facetious one of the choices?
ms. - i didn't bother following it up
le7- sorry, i forgot kalla's get wierd about it

3/03/2006 12:13 PM
Limey2001 said...
LE7- I dont criticize chumros just those who enforce them on others.
I have a question for you, Hubby wants to be machmir and not carry in a "kosher" but allows his wife and children to carry....good so far? but then he wont carry the kicking screaming toddler who wont walk or push the double stroller that his 9 mo pregnant wife is pushing....
Whats better a)both should carry b)neither should carry c)the scene depicted is perfect d)none of the above?

3/03/2006 1:12 PM
Semgirl said...
e) Wait for some "bummy" girl to walk by, ask her to push the stroller and then look your nose down on her and talk about her behind her back, while she is still within earshot of you..

3/03/2006 1:46 PM
Limey2001 said...

3/03/2006 1:56 PM
ms. shtark said...
limey what does that mean? sorry i am ignorant.

3/03/2006 3:09 PM
Limey2001 said...

3/03/2006 3:41 PM
Elisheva said...
Gosh, heating up again. Is it me?

About your issue. I totally agree with you. Chumros can be very nice, but never when pushed on others. My brother-in-law always says, he heard from someone (I don't remember who) that you should worry about your own ruchnios and your friend's gashmius.

About your question. It is silly I think. It is phrased in a way to make the answer only sound good one way. I am hardly a posek and know very little besides what I learned at home and in school, but "chumra" is a broad term. Like sometimes no chumra is more important than someone having a hard time. But some chumros are like more "Din" like this is the way that all the poskim in earlier generations went, so you can't just say well a baby is crying, so it is not important here. I guess you have to understand the psak, which I don't. I am just saying all chumros are not bad, what is bad is if you push it on others. If you happen to have a chumra that might make it hard on someone else, like your example where he is not pushing it but it makes it harder on her, then it really depends.

Would you eat non-glatt kosher chicken because there are poor people out there and they can use the money? (I am not sure this is a chumra, sorry if I am wrong. I told you, I don't really know this stuff. I mean it as an example.)

Good Shabbos and Shalom

3/03/2006 3:44 PM
ms. shtark said...
thanks limey, semgirl e mailed me what it means. have a good shabbos

3/03/2006 4:32 PM
Datingmaster, Jerusalem said...
I wanted to know what is your highest number of comments on one post because I scored 487

3/05/2006 4:36 AM
Anonymous said...
Congadulations but the ends don't justify the means...I do however share your pain for your current difficult situation you are going throgh.May hashem guide you on the proper path and may your future be one of unlimiteded naches for you and him.

3/05/2006 2:13 PM
Limey2001 said...
LE7- I tried hard to make picking any side a tough choice. I am not for either side. It is my understanding that there is in halocho that "you should be form on yenem'schesbon". Your example is interesting though, you do find especially in hilchos shabbos or basar v'cholov that bemokom hefesed meruba its muter or lekovod shabbos(or erev shabbos)
how about taking certain medication on shabbos? if it hurts enough you can, different people are affected differently by pain. in the case of the baby crying maybe there would be a heiter to use certain kula's.....
just some ramblings.....
so yes maybe i would eat a not glatt chicken to save MYSELF a buck... ;}

3/06/2006 12:07 PM
LakewoodWorkingGuy said...
RASHI in mesechta Betza 2b says that a person who is mekil is better off because he understands the kulah and has an understanding of the sugya but many a time the machmir is only machmir because he doesnt understand the sugya and its halachos.

3/06/2006 2:49 PM
Anonymous said...
While I won't question the motives of the rabbis who are known to be "hetterim speacilists"I question the motives of those who flock to them.

3/06/2006 3:06 PM
Semgirl said...
"glatt chicken to save MYSELF"

There is no such thing as GLATT by poultry.. Even I know that. Glatt means the cow's lung is smooth of adhesions. And Askenazim follow the Rema.. that allows removing them..

LWG..back to the books..

3/06/2006 3:14 PM
Jewboy said...
koach deheteira adef

3/06/2006 4:11 PM
Limey2001 said...
SG- touche, it was a joke after all
What i meant was i would eat a chicken for shabbos that had a shaila on it and was "mattered" by hefsed meruba
The gemara in chulin (and other places i believe) bring from the Navi Yechezkel (navi we can do on this website, no?) that he didn't ever eat something that a shayla was asked! even if it was 100% mutar... (no, i'm not gonna ask if he made his wife throw out the whole meal that she slaved over.....)

3/06/2006 4:51 PM
Elisheva said...
Anon before SG, I liked that comment. It reflected my thoughts very well.

How this became a whole thing on chumros, I don't know, but maybe I should do a post on it. (WHEN I get around to it...)


3/06/2006 8:47 PM
Semgirl said...
speaking of getting around to things...when am I going to hear from you...

3/06/2006 11:31 PM
LakewoodWorkingGuy said...
SG -
Without the books, what do we have?

3/07/2006 9:36 AM
Limey2001 said...
LE7- How 'bout during sheva brochos when you are bored

3/07/2006 11:23 AM
Okee said...
Um, this is probably a stupid question, but what is the story with the shoes and the Netziv?
I'm missing something here...

3/07/2006 3:31 PM
Limey2001 said...

The Netziv, Rav Naftali Tzvi Yehuda Berlin (1817-1893), the great Rosh Yeshiva of Volozhin, made a special seudah (festive meal) when he completed his magnus opus, the Haamek She'eila. At that occasion, he explained why this milestone was so significant for him. As a young boy, he did not show much interest in his Torah studies. One night, young Naftali overheard his father bemoaning his lack of progress. With tears in his eyes, his father told his mother it was time for their young son, Hirsh Leib (his nickname), to leave the yeshiva and become an apprentice to a local craftsman, so that he might learn a meaningful trade. Naftali was deeply moved by his parents’ distress, and he rushed to them and promised to apply himself to his Torah learning. From that day on, Naftali grew to become one of the great Torah giants of the 19th century.

The Netziv displayed the Haamek She-eila and said with much emotion, "Had I become a shoemaker or tailor, I never would have written these volumes. After 120 years, I would have appeared before Hakodesh Baruch Hu, and He would have demanded, ‘Why didn't you write the Haamek She-eilah?’ No doubt I would have responded in disbelief. ‘What, I am only a simple shoemaker. How could I have written this magnificent sefer?’ ‘No’, G-d would have insisted, ‘you were capable of authoring this profound work,’ and of course that would have been the case. Imagine, for eternity I would have endured the anguish, pain and disgrace of not having authored the Haamek She-eilah."

3/07/2006 3:58 PM
Okee said...
Thanks limey! I actually have heard that story, but wayyy back in high school, so I forgive my memory this time.

Side note: That story, for me, affected me more than I realized those years ago in high school. For the last year or two, I grappled (seriously, grappled) with the decision of whether to become a Judaic studies teacher. I knew I probably could've been a good teacher, etc., but I just didn't want to do it. But I was terrified and at a stand-still because I thought that when I go up to shamayim Hashem will ask me something like, where are all those yiddishe neshamas you could have brought closer to me? No joke, I ook that issue into consideration. Well, now I'm a teacher. But it took seven months of waiting, indecision, worry and pain to get to this point. Am I worried that I wasted seven months of not influencing/teaching eager souls? Not really, because without all that grappling, I wouldn't have gotten here.

Sorry to go on and on, I should just post this all on my site, but the story triggered it.

Oh, and the whole grappling/glad for the grappling issue falls under the guilt versus regret issue. (Never feel guilt when you can feel honest regret and change.)
Okay, I'll stop now. Goodnight!

3/07/2006 10:51 PM
Y.Y. said...
i have an important question for you on my blog

3/08/2006 7:42 AM
ms. shtark said...
okee, u don't have to be a full time teacher... you can do 2 things and enjoy both of them in mod.

3/08/2006 2:20 PM
devorah said...
I don't teach because I'm not cut out for it but it is a scary thought that soon all capeble girls will be busy persuing careers and noone qualified will be left to teach limudey kodosh.I aplaud you strongly okee for your decision.

3/08/2006 3:05 PM
ms. shtark said...
devorah, I disagree. There are still lots of CAPABLE girls who are continuing to teach and go into teaching. I actually taught limudei kodesh in high school while I was in seminary and also the year after and I really enjoyed it. I just decided to choose something else which would make a bit more money and has less preparation at home and yes, also something that I enjoy. But i do miss the teaching and lately, I have been pursuing going back into it just for a few hours a week as I find it very stimulating. But definitely it is a loss if someone who is really talented in teaching decides to do something else.

3/08/2006 8:11 PM
Josh said...
Don't get me started on girls (and guys) becoming teachers. Just because you want to make a difference in this world, doesn't mean you have to be a teacher. That requires certain skills that not everyone has. Every person has their own unique contribution to this world. The Netziv's was being the Netziv, but don't think that not being a teacher means you aren't following the story of the Netziv. The point of the story isn't that we should all spend our lives with Limudei Kodesh. It's that we all have our unique tachlis in this world. We should all be lucky enough to find out what that is, and excel at it!

3/11/2006 10:55 PM
Anonymous said...
Rarely are we given the cleat choice between writing a sefer or being a shoemaker.It is a series of life decisions and a relentless effort to do that what is right that will lead to the outcome.After 120 years while perhaps we made major life mistakes we must be capable of saying they weren't made for selfish reasons.No clear expectation is made of us other the doing our best and that will lead those cut out for teaching to do so those who are not to persue shleimus in their best manner applicble to them.Only with major effort can we determine what is really our best and even then one can't be sure.

3/12/2006 6:50 PM
brianna said...
Is it just me or are you saying Baruch Hashem more often now that you're engaged?

3/14/2006 8:50 PM
Post a Comment