Comments on Are We Wives Trophies?

88 Comments:
Semgirl said...
cool...let me grab the #1 spot before reading it.

7/17/2006 4:49 PM
Semgirl said...
I think it's very wrong for husbands to show off their wives. Afterall, we are people not possessions. As a wise person once said to me...if you have a wallet full of money do you show that off too?
Don't worry, I'm still formulating more thoughts on this...

7/17/2006 5:02 PM
Anonymous said...
poor girls

7/17/2006 7:03 PM
Chillin in The Lake said...
Now I see what you have been up to? lol

7/17/2006 7:18 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i think it's childish and very wrong. On some level i can't even understand why someone would treat his wife like a thing like that. I think it's horrible and degrading.

i think i would be deeply bothered if my wife where to dress non-tzniusly. i can't relate to someone using his wife like a trophy. she's a person for crying out loud! Love her, care for her, and by all means, PLEASE treat her with respect!

sorry i'm not being helpfull in this thread, i'm just to shocked at girls being treated so wontonly to even have anything intelligable to add.

7/17/2006 10:08 PM
wearywife said...
It's better for us to not be overly obsessed with how we dress. Let's just be comfortable and attractive at all times for ourselves.

7/17/2006 11:34 PM
Anonymous said...
Elisheva,

You have a very special and wonderful husband who appreciates and values your femininity. There are husbands who want their wives to show off and women (like the married girl you mention at the end) who want to show off. It's terrible! Your beauty is not, chalila, to turn the heads of the bochrim. There's only one man you need to attract, and he's obviously proud, and that's in the privacy of your new home.

Your husband has a much better idea than you do about what turns a man's eye in the wrong way... because he's a man. It's just the way it is. It's good that you value and appreciate his advice about what to wear outside.

It looks like you two are already well on the way to building a true Bayis Ne'eman BeYisrael. May we hear more good news from you soon!

7/18/2006 2:33 AM
Pragmatician said...
I can't speak for the women, but as husband I am always insisting my wife make an effort to appear tsnisudik whenever we go out.
Yet it's undeniable that a husband wants to feel a sensation of pride(not haughtiness) about his wife.
When we go to a Simche and all the aunts compliment her (and me) on how she looks it's actually promoting a healthy Shalom Bayis.(very important!!)
The fact is that a wife who makes her husband feel good increases his love for her.
Therefore I think it's healthy for women to make an effort to look good for her husband in company, but I frown upon flaunting anything.
A women can be beautiful and remain friendly and inconspicuous, one doesn't exclude the other at all.

7/18/2006 7:01 AM
Shimshy said...
All the condemnation.... let's get real. IDEALY it is not a good thing. We all know that. But this is not an ideal world, so let's cut the garbage.
Frum ladies dress to kill whenever they go out. Why? Beats me. But they are attracting the looks of every single guy. So my wife has to be the one not to and have me be provoked by every other lady? Dressing to the nines at home for supper, what a joke! When I am outside and see your wife with a face full of make-up, lip-stick, perfume, tight skirt showing off her ass and panties and t-shirt so tight it shows off her boobs, bra, and sometimes even her nipples, nature isn't waiting for supper that night. By then I have been seeing your wife in my mind for hours. So if my wife dresses half like that, don't complain.
Am I showing her off? No. Just a self-defensive measure. And between me and you, you all like and wish I would show her off more. Before you all act so holy, where exactly are your eyes going every time my wife is near? She said it a couple of times. She knows she shouldn't show off, but with so many admiring eyes every time she's anywhere, it makes it kinda hard not to want the thrill of flaunting it.
When you fix your world up, I will make sure my wife is a frummy neb outside.

7/18/2006 9:13 AM
Y.Y. said...
of course men like to show off thier lovely women
women are sex dolls thats it!

7/18/2006 10:13 AM
Scraps said...
Elisheva, your husband has his priorities in the right place. Unfortunately, a lot of guys don't, and they just want to show off their eye candy to make the other guys jealous.

It always bothered me that there seems to be such a double standard in some areas, that before marriage a girl has to dress a certain way (not wear denim, not wear skirts that are too short, not wear anything too low or too tight, etc) and then as soon as sheva brachos are over, all that goes out the door. I always blamed it on the girls themselves, but it sounds like their husbands should also take a large measure of the blame.

7/18/2006 11:24 AM
Limey2001 said...
"A lot of s admit their husbands like them to dress up nicely, and they always thought that the husbands just wanted them to look good. But now some are saying, does he want me to look good for him, or is it to like show off to his friends?"

Its like just when you dress your kids also, who are you dressing them up for?
These days if your not dressed to kill you look like a neb and thats an EMBARRASSMENT! its like a guy walking around with his shirt untucked tzizis flying etc.
there is no preceived middle ground (IMHO)
Its not just to show off its a status symbol!
As for semgirls comment "As a wise person once said to me...if you have a wallet full of money do you show that off too?" uh YES they do! of course they do the car and house etc...

7/18/2006 11:49 AM
wearywife said...
I dress to make myself feel comfortable and presentable. I'm refuse to stress over who does or doesn't like it. Afterall, there's nothing more attractive than a woman who's happy with herself. Believe me, it shows and it's the best make up there is.

7/18/2006 12:13 PM
Elisheva said...
Hi everyone. Nice to be back commenting on a new post finally.

SG - I agree obviously that we should not be used, but I also agree with Limey about that it is sad, but people DO show off their money quite a lot. I would hope a wife should be something more special and private than money.

Chillin, while I wait for e-mails, I think of other smart stuff I read in other e-mails, lol!

HNC, it's nice that some guys do have the sensitivity...

WW - I partially agree. We shouldn't over-obsess, but we can't say I am just too busy with myself to care about others. We have to be aware and care. I don't believe in being selfish. If it takes a little of our time and effort, then that's like what makes us human.

Anon, Very well put, and I take all the compliments about my husband, lol! It is true I got someone special, and I totally did not deserve it, so I must thank Hashem for saving me from myself. I just feel bad for my husband... I was lucky to get him, but what did he do to have to end up with a girl like me? lol!

Prag, I missed your intellignet remarks. It is nice that there are so many like you who DO have the sensitivity, but you also raise a good point and maybe that is like the whole crux of the issue. How much is okay and flatters the husband like you say with compliments you get about your wife, and how much is too much and just causes problems and is just cheapening us wives? I guess you just have to use your common sense as usual, which like isn't too easy or common anymore....

Shimshy, you have an attitude, but the truth is, I have to admit I don't totally have an answer for you, which I mentioned in my post. This DID bother me, like I don't want to cheapen myself or want my husband to make me a cheap show-off thing, but I DO want to keep his eyes on me and it IS pretty crazy the way it's got with how a lot of us dress, I admit. Still, I just think there has to be a better way than continuing the downward spiral.

YY, So succint and subtle, as usual... lol

Scraps, thanx, and you are so right about the double standard. When we are married and finally should be better off and for each other, suddenly we are going all out in this crazy show off competition...

Limey, you raise a point similar to Prag's. So must we cheapen ourselves and flaunt to all your friends just so they don't think you married a neb? I mean this seriously. I understand how it is for a guy (okay, not everything, but I do understand somewhat), so what is the solution?

Shalom

7/18/2006 2:59 PM
Bocher's Dreams said...
It is true, some guys have a tayva to flaunt their wives and some wives love to flaunt what they got too.

I was just in a local store and a saleslady was wearing a skirt where I saw her pantylines right through. Then she bends over and I see the top of her nude pantyhose and her panties! She is at work, so her husband is not even going to see her until she gets home! Who is she doing this for? To flaunt what she has. (And she sure has a nice ass...)

This past Shabbos I ate at a friends. I am sure hundreds of bachurim know exactly what I am talking about when I say that the wife's robe was so tight, I saw every detail of her lace bra through the slinky material. There was not another woman around, so she wasn't doing it to keep his eyes off anyone else. The guy is a "chilled out" guy, and seemed to be enjoying his wife's show and our noticing. I almost thought he was going to invite us to share or something. (I would not have minded, she definiely had the goods.)

Yes, some guys do like to show off and some ladies love to show it. And don't give me the "for my husband" excuse....

7/18/2006 3:55 PM
s.f. said...
hi glad to have u back (even though the promisd update is just hinted at as somone else noted, things seem to be doing quiet well bh, we r happy for u, btw elisheva u tend to put yourself down versus your dh to often, its not healthy,& its not true at least from what we know about u,but if u feel that way rely on hkb"h that he knows u r worth it, sorry but just my 2 sence, now about the topic) wow u r back full storm lol, i may be of a more ultra yeshivish crowd so its possible i dont talk for the entire specturm,also i m giving a guys point of vew, (but what i m saying is based on expirence, mine & others,)#1 frum girls must know hubby wants u to look decent for his sisters mother or for any darn WOMEN that sees u, its embarssing to have a wife that does not have the know how to look good,as a matter of fact he may be embaresd of your mother & sister & besides for looking good for ppl, he feels like a loser, his wife is cluless, imagin if u wish he invites freinds for a meal & u r not even there but the food tastes teriblle, its teribly amberassing, (now for those that have merited a hubby, that is above all that first seems unlikly it wont matter at all but if thats the case & for reasons of znius u "pretend" to be a neb as we say in america g_d bless u), #2 IF the guy is happy at home its realy great, he wont need it outside, (of course a perv. will always be a perv.) it may be right in begining being he has whats calld "faigelech in kup" from his singlehood he will mind but it shouldent last very long, (more to say but must run more later bln)

7/18/2006 4:01 PM
wearywife said...
Elisheva-you missed my point entirely. Dressing for ones self is not about selfishness. It's about ones stress level. I'm over 30, married app 15 years and a mom of a few kids myself and my mom still tries to tell me what to wear. I have friends who also try to make suggestions. Even my husband has proposed outfits with which I'm not comfortable. Then of course there's the co-workers. And the saleslady at the store is also telling me what I must wear to be fashionable. Even my pre-teen daughter has her thoughts on the subject. Afterall, she doesn't want mom to look outdated. Her friends mom wears this and this and that. It's so cool.
Where does it end? Everyone has an opinion. Well, lets be practical. Who will be wearing my clothes? Me. Who has to live with them?
Me. Who needs to feel comfortable in them? Me. Who needs to feel presentable in them? Me. Yes, lil' ole me. Thus, who's opinion counts the most? Mine. Once again this is not selfishness, but sheer practicality.
Just as we need to be reasonably comfortable with our homes, we need to be reasonably comfortable with our wardrobes.

7/18/2006 4:45 PM
Limey2001 said...
SOLUTION ? DRESS SHARP NOT TIGHT
Who said flaunt, i said just dont be a neb. the guy like BD are gonna look anyway...
I get annoyed when my wife looks like a total neb (and not comfortable clothes either) because it reflects badly on me
she can get "tzinus" clothes and still look "good" but not "fetching"
Rabbi abromov mentioned when teaching chasanim you are NOT ALLOWED to tell your wife to wear something "less tzinus"... ITS NOT YOUR BUSINESS... personally i think he's correct but that the women take it to either extreme (hence my point earlier about no middle ground)

7/18/2006 6:06 PM
Halfnutcase said...
women can be beautifull with out being not tznius. i think that, R"L we actualy teach our kids that the only way to be attractive is to be not-tznius, it's so not true.

and i think limeys comment is on the money, it isn't his buisiness, his wife has a right to dress as she likes. (after all we don't believe she's property g-d forbid)

7/18/2006 6:42 PM
Anonymous said...
Bochur may be inappropriate but he is correct. Girls need to be aware of who is around when they are dressing. If you have a group of guys over, you need to realize that you can't display your assets just bec. its Friday night.

7/19/2006 1:14 AM
Anonymous said...
Anonumous. The women in BD's store and friday night story know exactly what they are doing. Who are you kidding that you say they need to realize, they do.

Bd was very true and on the mark unfortunantly. Its a totally different issue nothing to do with husbands wanting to show off their wives. Elisheva, you can make a post on the way many women and girls dress today.

The point is that as a few ppl said a wife should dress well in front of others too, its very important for her husband and their shalom bayis. Not every man wants his wife dressed well to show her off in a bad way, and most women who dress that way are not doing it for their husbands but for themselves, and everyone who sees.

7/19/2006 1:42 AM
Pragmatician said...
I think that too much is when the intention is to attract undue attention, but if it the intention is to look good for among other reasons; a healthy self esteem, promoting Shalom Bayis etc...Than it's not.
The parameters are indeed hard to set, yet you'll see that when honest good intentions are present, the results will be too.
Have you never seen that gorgeous women that just screamed 'aidelkait'?

7/19/2006 7:17 AM
Halfnutcase said...
the problem is girls often convince themselves that they are dressing nicely for themselves when in reality they are dressing the way they dress specificaly so that they can get attention, and this makes them feel good, so they call it "dressing for themselves"

having had alot of friends who are girls i can say this happens all the time with girls who are not self awear enough to realize the subtle difference between dressing nicely for your self and dressing provocatively so you can get attention. i also think that often enough society encourages their low self esteem. this is something that hurts me very much, theyh deserve much better.

but still the issue with the boys boggles my mind.

7/19/2006 7:49 AM
ADMITNOTHING said...
Check it out !

www.toughjews.blogspot.com

You'll be glad you did !

7/19/2006 9:10 AM
thinking woman said...
The nature of a man is to want to look, & the nature of a woman is to want to be looked at. Add to that an insecure & immature desire to impress others with what we have, be it money, good looks, trophy spouse, etc. & you have a dangerous mix.
I know plenty of beautiful women who draw a line regarding how they dress. They have enough self-respect to dress in up-to-date styles that are still dignified. At the end of the day, tznius is really about the woman respecting herself & wanting to be seen as a real person, not just a piece of meat.
A man who encourages his wife to dress provocatively in public is making a statement about what he values--the admiration and envy of others. He doesn't respect himself & doesn't respect his wife, either. Very sad.

7/19/2006 9:44 AM
wearywife said...
Thinking Woman, you hit the nail on the head. Now, lets examine the possible root of this problem. It could very well be that the shallow superficial way frum society judges women is to blame. It starts in high school. She is discouraged from asking too many questions. A girls entire commitment to yidishkeit is measured by what she wears and how committed she is to financially supporting her future husband so he can learn. Then she gets into shidduchim. The shadchanim are telling her that her strongest marketing points are a tiny dress size, a big bank account and a pretty face. Excessive intelligence is a threat and thinking for herself is an even greater threat.
It's human nature to want to distinguish ones self in some way. Given what frum society values in females and how females ae taught to perceive themselves, is it any wonder that some women feel the need to wear flashy clothes? Women are taught to be followers and independent thought was never encouraged so is it any wonder that she now feels the need to follow the latest trend? If she is valued mainly for her looks is it any wonder that she may feel the need to show off her more private assets with tight clothing?
If, as a bochur, the first things her husband asked about in a girl were her dress size and her bank account, is it any wonder that he might feel the need to show off his pretty wife in expensive, provocative clothing?
It seems to me that this is one problem we've created for ourselves.....

7/19/2006 10:48 AM
Limey2001 said...
If, as a bochur, the first things her husband asked about in a were her dress size and her bank account, is it any wonder that he might feel the need to show off his pretty wife in expensive, provocative clothing?
OMG OUCH OUCH OUCH

7/19/2006 11:18 AM
thinking woman said...
Weary wife, I believe that this problem cuts across many frum circles, not only the "black hat" and learning communities. Walk down Central Avenue in the 5 Towns, or look at Teaneck or at Flatbush & see how the women present themselves. Frum women everywhere (and secular women, too)are sacrificing their personal dignity for the cheap thrill of turning heads. Shidduchim based on bank account size and dress size are not the norm there & most of these women don't fit the "Bais Yaakov" mold you described, but the problem is the same. The message that tznius = self respect is lost today. Read Wendy Shalit's book "A Return to Modesty". She writes from a secular perspective & observes that women cheat themselves out of meaningful relationships and positive self-images when they throw modesty out the window. Another good book is Gila Manolson's "Outside/Inside". It should be required reading for every frum woman. The saddest thing of all is that women don't even realize that they are the losers in all this. If you want to be treated as an intelligent person of value, dressing like a bimbo is counter-productive!

7/19/2006 2:33 PM
wearywife said...
Thinking Woman, my comment was geared specifiaclly towards the black hat community, however this problem does exist elsewhere as well.
See, the thing is most of todays young women(and some older ones as well) have no concept of personal dignity. It's not like they consciously choose to be trendy over retaining their personal dignity. Most people nowadays dont have much of a concept of personal dignity. A couple of years ago this goy wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal about this very issue. He said alot of people dress like overgrown children and worse nowadays. I personally have noticed children dressing like grownups. It's as if we have somehow lost not only our personal dignity but our sense of appropriateness as well. We in the frum community are not as immune as we think we are to the social trends of the outside world. We just give them our own unique flavor.
And yes, I've heard of the books you mentioned and highly reccommend them.
Limey,your comment is cute but are you good looking? Are you a 34 waist or less? Do you have a good figure? As a man can you imagine a world in which people are more interested in your suit size, waist size and handsomeness than your thoughts and ideas? Don't think, dear, just look in the mirror and comb your hair. Brush your teeth and make yourself look nice.

7/19/2006 4:30 PM
Elisheva said...
Gosh, so much to comment on, and so little time....

BD, I must admit, you make some strong points. A few people e-mailed me saying they agreed with you. (I guess they are shy to comment about it.) Your first story is like so true today and I really should do a separate post on it. The second story is more like about what I posted about.

Let me clarify one thing like I think maybe I wasn't clear about before. I am not saying guys like force or make their wives dress badly. I admit usually it's the ladies who enjoy it as much as the guys. I think the whole thing is like a certain immaturity. I admit I can get immature too sometimes, but like we should have a certain degree of self-respect and a line we don't cross.

So my issue is not about ladies being forced to dress a way they don't want, but about guys looking at us like objects to show off and some guys even told me that is normal and what is wrong with it. I think it is just a wrong and demeaning thing. Of course we should dress nice and it would be embarrassing to have a wife who looks terrible, but like not because you want to show us off. Just because we should not embarrass you or ourselves.

So I am not talking tznius here. That is like a different issue, and I should really do a post on it. I mean like the issue of a guy enjoying showing his wife off and not having that line, that even if he has hormones and guy stuff etc. a wife should be a line not to cross maybe.

sf, thanx for your compliments and sorry about the lack of updates. I guess I have to be happy that I can post the little I can... and you do wonders for my self-esteem...

You make some good points. I don't know why you think it is like an ultra-yeshivish thing to want your wife to look good for your parents/in-laws. It is natural. A lot of people spoke about this. I think at the bottom of this, the line has to be that of course we should look good, but not because a guy wants to show us off. That's my feeling. And yes, it is a fine line, but I guess if you are honest, and depending on why you are dressing, you will like get into the right way.

Like if you are doing it just to be always presentable and even look fashionable, but you and your husband both understand that you are too precious to be shown off, automatically you will like not go too far even if you want to to look good or fashinable.

But if you are like doing it cause the immature, horny, or whatever part wants to show off or be shown off, then it will be way more than just not embarrassing your husband, it will be like the way BD says it, and that is like demeaning and mean for the single guys and even the married ones.

WW - You wrote two different things and I have like comments on both of them. About the selfish thing. I am totally not putting anyone down, but you say "It's about ones stress level." Okay, so can't you stress yourself a bit to please a spouse? That's my whole point. If my husband asks me to wear something I am uncomfortable in, yes, I am the one wearing it, but he is my husband. And like besides that it is not smart for him not to be happy even for selfish reasons, cause like an unhappy husband cannot be good even for yourself in your marriage, but besides that, can't we give a drop to our husbands? So that is my whole point. Of course there are limits and I agree, but the attitude that I can't be bothered at all and just will not get stressed and will please myself, is just not my way. You have to maintain your sanity, sure, and you can't like lose yourself and get totally stressed out, but a little stress will not kill you if it is for a greater good. And making someone happy, is a greater good. Okay, I am sounding preachy, so I will stop. It is just how I feel, but sure I know that in real life it is like way harder...

Limey, your comments are always great. I think I agree with you mostly. You have to just get the right line.

HNC, you wrote "we actualy teach our kids that the only way to be attractive is to be not-tznius, it's so not true." That is much truer than you think, and we have to deal with it before it gets like way out of hand. And I will add that sometimes talking 'tznius' to your kids all day, also has the opposite effect and tells them you have to be a neb but too bad. That is so not true, and the kid will just not listen. Trust me, lol.

both anons, you are right...

Prag, I already said, you ppl got it right. We just have to get the right line.

HNC, we do fool ourselves, you are so right. And a husband can help us see things right, unless he has this thing that he likes that we fool oursleves cause he is proud to have his friends see us as a trophy or whatever...

thinking w. - so well put. Why didn't my teachers speak like this? I should get to know you...

WW - I have to agree with Thinking W. on this. You seem to be just like pushing an agenda that other blogs like to push. I totally do not think this has anything to do with yeshivish/frum/ whatever. It is in all circles. People who value their cars and homes and all things material to an extreme will look at their wives, and girls at themselves, the same way. Of course we all have to work on ourselves in that respect, but like I said, there is like a limit. But the ones who do, are found in all circles, maybe even more than in ours. Trust me, in some modern circles I know well, the wives openly flirt with the husbands and the guys are quite happy about it, it's scary. It is the same immaturity all over.

And the whole stereotype is so not true. I have like so many problems with our school-system, but the typical anti-kollel, anti-yeshiva ones are so made up. We think like way too much, we are not told to be followers or anything of the sort. Girls grow up to be like so many different types. There are problems, like you bet, but not the ones the anti-kollel ppl wish there were.

Thinking W. I have read the books and they are truly like on the mark. Can I ask what age bracket you are in? You really have a rare understanding I admire

I am way too long, Shalom

7/19/2006 4:51 PM
Elisheva said...
ww, sorry I posted before I saw your last comment. It was very well said, besides the last part, as I said. I was in the market and have friends still like in it. They ask just as much about marks, brains, sem, and stuff that between me and you have like so little to do with us as wives and mothers. They should ask more about middos. But looks is actually not the major part. Money is a way bigger issue, but even that is not all. The asking about marks and tests and how good of a student she was is just as crazy...

7/19/2006 4:54 PM
wearywife said...
Eilsheva, What's wrong with wanting a girl who achieves in school? They're probably asking about her school career to see if she can get a good job and command a good salary. Don't worry, they're not interested in her intellectual development.
Once again this isn't about selfishness. I'm saying so many people have an opinion about what we should wear. Our parents(no Elisheva, mom will never stop trying to tell us what to wear), friends,co-workers, spouses, sales people.....Even my 12 y/o daughter has an opinion! She wants me to be as cool as her friends mom! Everyone is a fashion critic!!!
So, I dont always listen to my mom's fashion advice....does that make me a bad daughter? So I'm not a femme fatale......does that make me a bad wife? So I'm not as cool as my daughter's friend's mom...does that make me a bad mother? No to all of the above. The fact is you will never, ever please everyone.It's just not possible, so the prudent thing to do is to be open to suggestions but to use your own judgement.

7/19/2006 7:27 PM
Chana said...
WW... Duh...

And here I thought, it was about pleasing your husband, if you have
one.. Silly me...

Elisheva, excellent post and great comments. Keep up the good work..

7/19/2006 9:16 PM
thinking woman said...
Elisheva, your blog is one of the very few out there where intelligent, honest, respectful discussion is consistently maintained. I lurk on many frum-oriented blogs but rarely comment. Since you asked, I am in my thirties. I am married and have a bunch of kids. I find the issue of tznius very complex & put a lot of thought into it on a regular basis. Keep up with your excellent blogging!

7/19/2006 9:32 PM
Anonymous said...
What BD says rings true- girls have 2 ways of dressing
1. In front of people they fear will think negatively about them (read: adults) and
2. In front of their friends
I went with my husband to our friends house one Shabbos and her "special shabbos outfit" bared so much cleavage I thought he wouldn't be interested in me when we got home- Jamie

7/20/2006 1:00 AM
bachur in the know said...
and let's not forget the latest 'heimish' version of swinging. The two couples eating together Friday night - both wives showing every drop of cleavage and curve of their asses. The guys eye each other, okay the checking out of their mates - the wives are giggly and 'bumping into' and playing footsie with the friend's husband - and then, after open talk about "oh you can't imagine what she does to me, she's wild", and "oh my husband is so good at that, pity he can't show you..." - then while no one would dream the couple who 'ate at their friends' did it, they switch partners and go to different rooms, "just for the good of their marriages", to teach the spouse some good techniches.

right.....

7/20/2006 9:26 AM
Limey2001 said...
Bocher in the know...... and then you woke up

7/20/2006 10:44 AM
Elisheva said...
Chana, hi. Thanx.

Thinking W. - Thanx. I do try. It shows that you thought about this stuff, and you did a good job. Would you e-mail me? I'd love to talk stuff with such a normal person...

Bachur ITK - Like what BD described is sadly all too true. What you write on the other hand, like maybe, maybe it happened, but it is not exactly a major problem in our society. Don't believe every crazy rumor you hear. Some horny guy prob wanted it to happen more than it ever did...

Shalom

7/20/2006 3:20 PM
Halfnutcase said...
(advance appologies to elisheva if she considers me presumptuous for saying this.)

do we really have to use such vulgar language on this thread? harsh words make a person's heart harsh y'know.

tznius is speach aplies to both men and women, and it includes things like using harsh language or directly mentioning unclean things you know. (as well as more vulgar word choices)
(again, i hope i'm not being presumptuous)

7/20/2006 3:32 PM
Elisheva said...
You are being great HNC! Thanx, I hate having to do it, but you are right. It is way better to say stuff in a subtle way.

7/20/2006 3:52 PM
ThinkingJew said...
I think Bachur ITK is saying that even if it hasn't happened yet, why will it not get there? If BD is right and it is so out of hand, which seems to be people's sentiments, then look at the broader world, and this is the next step. Let's not fool ourselves to think we can flaunt the rules so far and then stop. Once you go down, who is to stop it from going more?

7/20/2006 3:54 PM
Gavi said...
'Tis very simple. People have a lot of trouble understanding and practicing tznius, because it is so much more than necklines or skirt lengths. It is about how one carries oneself, presents oneself, and acts in general. Clothing (for both men and women) is just one small indicator. Rav Hershel Schechter writes about this at great length in many essays found on torahweb.org.

7/20/2006 8:18 PM
Bracha said...
I think generally the couples or women who will act like this are more immature and do this only because now after they are married they feel they "can".

They are married now and can do grown up things and think they can dress how they like since they have to "look good".

But in reality, they would have dressed like this and sometimes do dress like this even before being married.

Bracha

7/20/2006 11:41 PM
kollel mama said...
Wow. Great post. Lots to comment on. As bracha said, I think girls would dress they do once their married, but don't since parents don't let them. It's not unusual for a girl who is 22 to be told by her mother to change. It's pathetic but I've seen it.Anyway, the fact that a husband wants his wife to look good, isn't such a big deal. Don't you want your husband to look good and put together? And as someone had mentioned, your kids? You want them to look nice, for other people as much as for you. You want to look like a put together couple. There is nothing wrong, with a husband wanting his wife to look pretty, even if it's for other people, as well as himself.

Are we women being used, as we often are, or is this the way of the world?

Um, maybe the way of the world is, women are sometimes used ;) (just a side point!)

or is it sick and weird, and a bad hashpa’ah from the world we live in that a husband does not think of his wife as special for him, and has no problem showing her off?

The way I see it is, that he sees the wife as special, and that's the very reason he wants to show her off! I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I don't necessarily think it's a stira.

As far as your friend, who purposely flaunts what she has-- that is sick. Her reasoning is absolutely skewed.

Women do enjoy looking good, for themselves, for their husbands and for everyone else. The attention feels nice. And there's nothing wrong with dressing nice,as long as it is not done, to attract NEGATIVE attention. If someone compliments you on a sheitel or a nice outfit, I think that is okay. When you are wearing a tight robe Friday night with guys over, that is NOT okay. Some women do really need to feel good about themselves, and do dress for themselves. I know that when I wake up in the morning after a night of not too much sleep (thanks to my beautiful baby)and I wonder who that face in the mirror staring back at me is, I need the makeup, and fast. As soon as I put my makeup on I already feel better. I look like a human.

As far as "dressing to the nines for supper"-what the heck is the point? Do you think your husband really cares if you've got a full face of makeup and heels on at the end of the day? Maybe yours does, but I think most are very understanding, and don't really care. As long as supper is on the table, that's what matters!

Sorry this is lots of uncohesive bits of rambling, but last night was "one of those nights". :)

7/23/2006 5:00 AM
kollel mama said...
Wow. Great post. Lots to comment on. As bracha said, I think girls would dress they do once their married, but don't since parents don't let them. It's not unusual for a girl who is 22 to be told by her mother to change. It's pathetic but I've seen it.Anyway, the fact that a husband wants his wife to look good, isn't such a big deal. Don't you want your husband to look good and put together? And as someone had mentioned, your kids? You want them to look nice, for other people as much as for you. You want to look like a put together couple. There is nothing wrong, with a husband wanting his wife to look pretty, even if it's for other people, as well as himself.

Are we women being used, as we often are, or is this the way of the world?

Um, maybe the way of the world is, women are sometimes used ;) (just a side point!)

or is it sick and weird, and a bad hashpa’ah from the world we live in that a husband does not think of his wife as special for him, and has no problem showing her off?

The way I see it is, that he sees the wife as special, and that's the very reason he wants to show her off! I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I don't necessarily think it's a stira.

As far as your friend, who purposely flaunts what she has-- that is sick. Her reasoning is absolutely skewed.

Women do enjoy looking good, for themselves, for their husbands and for everyone else. The attention feels nice. And there's nothing wrong with dressing nice,as long as it is not done, to attract NEGATIVE attention. If someone compliments you on a sheitel or a nice outfit, I think that is okay. When you are wearing a tight robe Friday night with guys over, that is NOT okay. Some women do really need to feel good about themselves, and do dress for themselves. I know that when I wake up in the morning after a night of not too much sleep (thanks to my beautiful baby)and I wonder who that face in the mirror staring back at me is, I need the makeup, and fast. As soon as I put my makeup on I already feel better. I look like a human.

As far as "dressing to the nines for supper"-what the heck is the point? Do you think your husband really cares if you've got a full face of makeup and heels on at the end of the day? Maybe yours does, but I think most are very understanding, and don't really care. As long as supper is on the table, that's what matters!

Sorry this is lots of uncohesive bits of rambling, but last night was "one of those nights". :)

7/23/2006 5:00 AM
FrumGirl said...
Woah... I didnt read any other comments I got here late for the debate so I will just write what I think.

Too much thought is being put into what you think the guys are doing. You can only be used if you think you are being used. What does it ultimately matter if there is some loserish competition among the guys. Let that be their issue.... And yes womoen enjoy dressing for themselves too not just for the guys. I know that I dont dress for hubby. there are many times I will try new styles that he isnt into and dislikes but I always tell him he will get used to it, and usually does and ends up liking it. We are not an extention of men unless we make ourselves that way. Ladies, get your confidence from within not from some guy be it hubby or whomever. And let the losers who compete with their wives to contend with only themselves too.

7/23/2006 1:44 PM
michal said...
I think kollelmama has a good point - a lot of girls are expected to dress like little girls all their lives... their mothers and BY and seminary decide and dictate exactly what they're allowed to wear... and it's not only not very sexy, it's not very grown-up either. Because "society" tells them it's not aidel. When they get married, and can now choose to dress like women and not girls, some can go overboard. But it's a double standard to say that they can't dress sexily when they're not married, because they're not married -- and they can't dress sexily when they are married, because they are.

There's a difference between dressing alluringly because you want to attract the attention of men who aren't your husband, which is obviously a problem, and wanting to look like a beautiful wife when he comes home, so he'll look forward to coming home to you. A good husband will always understand and appreciate the difference.

7/23/2006 1:55 PM
Elisheva said...
Hi,

TJ - That is a scary thoguht. I have to agree with some of it. We do have to wonder where our little things can lead us to...

Gavi, I don't think the issue here is a tznius one.

Bracha - HI! Very good point. I think this is for both the guys and ladies. The girls want to dress in a way as if it is suddenly okay because now we are "ladies". And for the guys it is suddenly a kosher way of showing off about girls, cause it's their wife and a wife is kosher.

KM - I don't think you got the point here. We are totally not talking abut looking good. I am not exactly going around looking like a neb. Far from it. I think if I would be on a higher madrega there are things I wear I probably should not. The issue here clearly was one of flaunting your body specifically for guys and husbands wanting us to do just that. That is a totally different issue.

And you say "The way I see it is, that he sees the wife as special, and that's the very reason he wants to show her off! I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I don't necessarily think it's a stira." Then you say the lady who wears a tight robe Friday night is sick. Why? She just thinks she is special, like showing off her pearls, which is for sure normal, so she also like shows off her boobs.

You will have to agree that there are different types of special. And there is a special that if you are mature, should be above your outfit and jewlery, and like maybe private-special. But maybe that is a nebby old-fashioned concept which I somehow picked up. Gosh, my mother would love that, lol!

And a husband doesn't care if his wife looks good for supper, ever? I know sometimes it just doesn't happen and sometimes he is too hungry and tired, but if he cares outside, why not at home? Like to me it seems a guy really can get aroused from a wife dressed not just to the nines, but more to the point, to show that she wants him to see her and notice how she looks.

FG - That is a very good point about not being used unless you let yourself. I like it.

Michal, I don't know about us not dressing maturely. I think we dress too mature too young. I know I did it too, and my mother begged me not to, but like I agree I did and we all did and it was silly.

The second paragraph of your comment I could not agree more with. I await more of your comments.

Shalom

7/24/2006 4:53 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i don't know if i'd call it "dressing mature".

somehow it seems like dressing immaturely. It's like a mature person should know that they don't have to show off their bodies to every one shouldn't they? when we call this dressing like an adult i think we're sending a not so subtle message here.

proper adults should have more respect for each other.

lets just call this mode of dress what it is, dressing anti-tznius.

7/24/2006 5:25 PM
kollel mama said...
please-showing off in a tight robe with a lace bra when they are having guys over is something totally different, than dressing to kill outside. I also know, that some husbands aren't into makeup and jewelry. Believe it or not. So dressing for supper won't make much of a difference. Naturally, it's not nice for him to come home and she's shlepping around in Abercrombie pajama pants-but dressed, normally in a skirt and shirt, even a t-shirt,is fine for most husbands. Besides, once you're out of shana rishona and iy''H you have kids (or whichever comes first ;))you'll just be pleased that you actually got supper on the table.

7/25/2006 4:19 AM
SKIBUM said...
"but more to the point, to show that she wants him to see her and notice how she looks."
Eli7- right on, that comment shows you are muture beyond your years
SHE WANTS TO BE NOTICED BY HER HUSBAND!!!
and the immature one want to be noticed by other "husbands"

7/25/2006 1:36 PM
Elisheva said...
HNC - I don't think you realize what i am talking aobut. I guess it's girl-talk. Dressing mature totally does not have to mean anti-tznius or whatever you call it. A girl can dress in a way that would be totally appropriate and tznius for a twenty year old, but like totally not on a fourteen year old.

KM - Dressing to kill outside may be a bit different than a lace bra under a tight robe, but in truth, like is it okay? It may be better, but still not okay. There is like a bigger difference between dressing to please and look good and even stylish outside and dressing to kill.

ANd I never said dressing to the nines means make-up or jewlery only. It can be whatever your husbnad would like. Every guy likes his wofe in cewrtain things or look sand there is no reason that when you can (of course that gets less and less with time, but for us young newlies and for the older ones I guess when you can...) you should not drsss in a way that pleases, and even arouses him, just for a plain supper. maybe the kalla stuff is fresh in my mind and this sounds nebby to older couples, but maybe some stuff is good to be reminded about and like rekindle stuff. it sure is better than the pathetic guys online all saying howe little their wives care how they look unless they are dressing to go out. Sorry if I sound preachy. I can get that way, lol...

Skibum, thanx, and you put it pretty nicely yourself!

Shalom

7/25/2006 3:18 PM
Yakov said...
Ok after reading the posts here, I must say I am one of those guys who encourages his wife to dress nicely. In my case it is crucial for “shlom bayit”. When my wife dresses nicely I feel proud walking around with her and my attention is kept towards her. When she decides to dress simple I will notice her less and notice other woman more. So for woman who are married to guys like me, it is important to dress nicely in order to keep their husbands focused on them. Ok stop screaming you are a perv that terrible…. right or not, this is most guys nature they will notice other woman, and if their wife is looking and dressing nicely, they will keep their focus on their wives as opposed to noticing other woman.
In your case Elisheva your husband doesn’t seem to be the wandering eyes type, which is great and therefore you don’t need to dress up. In most cases guys do have wandering eyes so the wives should try to look good and trust me this does a lot of good for the marriage.
As far as other men looking I don’t really mind, I do the same when a good looking girl passes by so hey why shouldn’t they look as well….

7/25/2006 5:47 PM
Elisheva said...
Yakov, like are there any people left, especially yeshiva guys, who know how to read English??

This post is NOT about wives dressing nice. Do you know what "flaunt" means? Do you know what "flirty" means? The question was about guys liking it when their wives flaunt and dress flirty for other guys and look at it like some kind of one-up over their friends, and some kind of competition.

Did anybody get that?

And when you sau you do it so you have no problem when guys do it to your wife, how far would you take that? All the way? Like most guys admit they would check out a lady dressed provocaively too. So because you have a nisayon and are human and would do it, so like therefor you would have no problem with a guy checking out your wife's intimate parts and underwear? Like if we take things this far, it can get weird. maybe we have to say, I admit I am human and do it, and if another guy does it, it is human, but I sure would rather it was not on my wife's intimate parts.

Guess I am still pretty naive.

Shalom

7/25/2006 7:01 PM
Anonymous said...
Are there like any like people left, especially like seminary girls, who like write English without writing the world like so much?

7/26/2006 8:27 AM
yakov said...
Yakov, like are there any people left, especially yeshiva guys, who know how to read English??

This post is NOT about wives dressing nice. Do you know what "flaunt" means? Do you know what "flirty" means? The question was about guys liking it when their wives flaunt and dress flirty for other guys and look at it like some kind of one-up over their friends, and some kind of competition.

Elisheva,
I’m glad that in your English the difference between dressing nice and dressing flirty is so well cut. Sorry to break it to you, what might seem as flaunt to some might be nice dressing to others.

Its very naïve of you to think that men tell their wives, please dress provocative so other men will look. If you decided that the way these woman dress is flaunt, it does not necessarily mean that others view it that way as well. This post has a lot to do with woman dressing nice or flirty or flaunty whatever you like calling it...

7/26/2006 9:32 AM
Elisheva said...
Yakov, first of all it was out of place where I wrote about yeshiva guys not knowing English. I guess I am human. It is true of some guys, but I have seen that others do know it. In general some people just don't know how to read things and just like respond to the issue in their heads, like their agenda, and not the issue they just read about.

About what you wrote, I think this is like a classic example of fooling yourself. I know how it works, trust me. I've been there, and maybe I still am there. But deep down we know the truth and flaunting is like definitely NOT dressing nice and it is totally two different things.

A husband might not say straight out dress provocatively for my friends, but when he is pushing her to dress in a certain way which is way over the top and way more then looking good and he is immature and gets a kick out of his friends seeing her, he is only fooling himself when he says, to me this is only dressing nice.

Like I am totally human and fall many times and dress too far. But at least I know deep down it is wrong and I really should grow up and get a hold of myself. The problem is when we start saying, oh it is not too bad, it is only dressing nice...

Shalom

7/26/2006 3:16 PM
Halfnutcase said...
it's good of you to admit that elisheva, although honestly i think it's more a sign of age than anything else, so you come by it fairly, and i suspect are much better than most even.

there are basicaly two kinds of "adult" dress. there is the kind that is flaunting(and yes some people of your age, boys and girls both confuse it for nice), and there is dignified.

flaunting ranges from the obvious to the very subtle. red lipstick is one of the most "classic" examples of extreemely subtle flaunting dress, and i think an excelent thing to wear at home for your husband. There are varying forms of this, and really i think we are taught to avoid all of these in public (whether your single or married really).

but i think there is another kind of "adult" dress. Dressing in a dignified way, a way that respects your self as a person and tries to present you in a manner that doesn't demean you in any way (and i think that's essentialy what tznius is, because the truth is boys will do their thing after seing a girl whether or not she's not-tznius). I really cant give examples of such dress (mostly because you see so little of it nowdays). such dressing can also be called nice, and even beautifull, but not for base reasons.

I think that we're supposed to work on our selves, so that we do not try to resort to using our bodies to sell our selves to other people. I really think that hashem wants us to have the self esteem necessary to be our best, and i think such an attitude is what will make us healthiest.

elisheva, i understand full good and well all the implications of the "girl talk" expression "looking nice" or "adult". I've had to many friends who where girls and listened to them talk about such things as friends to often not to know.

however that said, hashem makes us in a way that we have a desire to. . . do things like that, and mastering it is one of the most difficult things a human being can do. i think that as long as you are doing better that you did before and are workuing on your self that your ok and doing well. Remember what perkei avos tells us about neither desisting from the work, nor must we complete it.

and i think that men and womens desires play off each other here, while it may not be something i relate to (at all.)i can certainly see, now that its been presented to me, just how people tell themselves these things are ok. we tell our selves that "really we're doing it for our husbands" but honestly, do they wear such or more in their houses? most husbands properly trained will only have eyes for their wives, even in the public place (and i myself have a number of women to credit for properly training me) when we tell our selves that "their eyes will naturaly wander anyway" we are basicaly making an excuse to compete with the other women, instead of holding me culpable for their behavior.

will they possibly desire to look? i would worry if they didn't. However hashem gave each of us a yeitzer tov, and under normal everyday conditions we are guranteed that we are able to overcome it. part of the law is that we are forbiden to look in that not-ok way at members of the opposite sex, and scince men cannot really control the manner of dress in the women they inevidably come around, the reality is that they will come around, and hashem has prepared us to deal with it. (although for time to time it may be a major struggle)

(sorry for this whole tangential thing)

7/26/2006 6:30 PM
sara said...
just for a different perspective- I've been married for close to 2 years now. I have to say that the way I chose to dress has definitely changed. And no, it is not because my husband encourages me to 'dress' in any certian way. simple: my husband boosted my confidance in myself and the way I look. That with time changed the way I carried myself.
When you are single it is very easy to feel like your looking like 'crap' when you are constantly attending l'chaims, weddings etc... where every 'eligible' girl is dressed to kill, skinny as a toothpick, and wearing seven layers of makeup. So the right pple would check them out etc... I always hated the scene- and never took part of the whole concept of looking amazing so people will see you and set you up etc....
But I definitely felt self conscious plently of times. Thankfully, I married a wonderful guy, and its the opposite of what you are all saying. My husband loves me and makes me feel gorgeous. I feel great and I always want to look good even in daily jean skirt :) I don't feel the need to compete with other woman or girls or for other men's attention. My husband does not know styles and he loves me in whatever I chose to wear as long as I am comfortable in it.

Whereas before I got married I felt like a piece of 'meat'. People describing me as "she's really pretty, on the shorter side, very cute" etc... selling me off... after I got married that all changed.

The situation swings both ways:

We were once out with some other couples eating pizza. and this one girl remarked that she can't believe her hubby eats 'five' slices of pizza. she was freaking out that her hubby eats waay too much. she's like you eat one slice. so i told her, "what do u mean, I could probably eat a few slices but i try to eat one or two so I don't turn into a cow" so she's says "so what will happen if you gain some weight" so my husband jokingly says "what do u mean I don't let her gain weight" so she's replies "how sick". This coming from a wife who was dictating her hubby how many slices of pizza to eat cuz he's too overweight and telling him to tuck in his shirt!!!
I never tell my hubby about his weight etc... I only compliment him when he looks good and I let him know that I appreciate him working out and being fit etc....
Women & Men alike appreciate when their spouse is put together and looks mentshlich. But in my circle of friends & acquaintances if someone dresses provacitively people wonder how the husband does mind that his wife is auctioning her goods....
okay this got kind of long....adios

7/26/2006 8:26 PM
Elisheva's Husbad (yeshiva guy) said...
Elisheva,
I accept your apologies for insulting yeshiva guys.

7/28/2006 9:34 AM
Anonymous said...
what is a husbad .. Is there a husgood

7/28/2006 4:47 PM
Anonymous said...
Seems like most of you missed the boat a long time ago, and it would take a lot more than some discussions on a blog to explain.

7/30/2006 7:56 PM
s.f. said...
elisheva i misunderstood the point of post, (it seems so have others) i thought u were trying to figure out is it true that the wifes r regarded by huubys as "trophies", that i belive the majorty of "guys" said no to,(that explains y i said ultra yeshivish as dont know in other circles may or may not be diff.),
now i relize your question was directed to the women around here, & was introspective about "why" they dress the way they do, obviously its up to the girls to awnser, but i do have a thought on the matter as to y girls will dress more provctivly after getting marreid, i think its quiet simple, most frum girls do not relate to themselvs as physicly attractive, & dont dress to show off there attributes, being its not realy "nogea", they r (at least not officaly)not being lookd at by boys, so naturly they will dress tastefully & thats all, but once marreid & they r very aware about there physical attraction, & it becomes quiet importent to them, & therfore dress acordingly,
(btw did anybody hear from ms shtark, shes not been around latly i hope for good reason)

7/31/2006 4:02 PM
Semgirl said...
ms shtark went to israel for 6 weeks.. She should be back around Aug. 12. I miss her so much..

7/31/2006 4:10 PM
s.f. said...
thanx sg for the info. i hope all is well with here there, & yes she is missd i must say she adds alot to the blog thank u again

7/31/2006 9:47 PM
Anonymous said...
I think that men who want their wives/girlfriends to dress provocatively are not saying anything regarding their views of women, but rather are making a statement about their own self esteem. They need their friends/co-workers/strangers to acknowledge that the seemingly average Joe is not so average after all if he could get such a such a woman to be with him.

8/01/2006 2:35 PM
David said...
I've never commented here before and live in a different community than you, but I think that this issue is not community-limited. I've been married for 5 years now and have talked with my wife many times about dress, etc.

I believe that many women like the attention that they get from random people - they like when guys think of them as pretty, "hot" and desirable. I think that the focus on desirable is really behind all of this. Women, I believe all women, want to feel desired - there are just different ways of going about it. A husband can entirely fill this role, so that his wife does not feel any need to feel desirable by other men.

I think that the problem of secular culture that you mentioned is that the husbands promote such behavior because of the notion of a trophy wife. They do not actually need to tell their wives anything, but when another guy looks at his wife and he smiles approvingly (as in "yeah, I know") that is enough encouragement - that is promoting her dressing behavior.

There is an additional element of women and girls wanting to look good in front of their peers, colleagues and adults - I believe that this refers only to women. Women usually feel the need to look good in front of other women - this is not because of desirability - I am not sure that I understand entirely why. I don't think a women needs to dress provacatively (and yes, cleavage is provacative) to garner this group's "approval" that they seek. They just need to be put together and present themselves nicely (I think that this part is the most important but will leave it to other women to discuss). In my neighborhood there are sometimes Women Friday Night Onegs - if you have any by you - see what the women wear there - it is very different that their "tight robes."

Elisheva, I think you write about issues after a lot of thought - I appreciate that. Thanks.

8/02/2006 1:55 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i think to answer davids question as to why is that women in general respond to any kind of "competition" differently than men. men confron it directly, women on the other hand are known to go in a round about way doing things like denigrating the way someone dresses, directly to the person or people they are competing "for"

i think that in a very real way this is a veriation of this theme. the women, afraid that someone may appear "better" than them selves respond by attempting to out do the "competition", and they do it for their own self esteem. i just think the problem is how they are competing. Essentialy these girls are trying to compensate for what ever they feel they lack by showing something they believe to be of value, and unfortunately they seem to place this value on their bodies instead of their minds, character and demeanor.

i think i'm rembling so i'll cut short here

8/02/2006 5:22 PM
Anonymous said...
elisheva,
this hatred toward yeshiva guys is stange considering its' coming from a "lakewood girl". totaly uncalled for .... Your apology not withstanding, i suspect this was the quintessential freudian slip.

8/03/2006 8:39 AM
Anonymous said...
elisheva,
this hatred toward yeshiva guys is stange considering its' coming from a "lakewood girl". totaly uncalled for .... Your apology not withstanding, i suspect this was the proverbial freudian slip.

8/03/2006 8:40 AM
Semgirl said...
"unfortunately they seem to place this value on their bodies instead of their minds, character and demeanor. "

Spot on...HNC

8/04/2006 1:08 AM
David said...
IMHO I think that, at least with regard to men, it is really a question of feeling desired. This is a quick and easy method to feel that way.

8/04/2006 9:23 AM
Limey2001 said...
semgirl, do you think ms. shtark wanted you to post her travel arrangements?
you wouldn't want someone to post yours... (of course yours wouldn't be "real time")

8/08/2006 11:16 AM
ms. shtark said...
wow, quite the loaded topic. being that i have no patience to read thru all 73 comments, i'll just add my 2 cents anyways.

although, i am still single, i still have my opinion about this. i could be wrong but i understand why a husband would want to show off his wife and what he's got all to himself (hopefully). it's like showing off your new infiniti or lincoln town car, a rolex or any other thing that you own..... but it still is tasteless. This for sure affects the whole wide world but also in the yeshivish world, i have this theory... most newlyweds can't afford that many material possessions but they do have a wife and for lack of anything else, they may want to show off even more what they have. I am not condoning this but it's fact because we are such a materialistically competitive and desirous generation- Sometimes, I think that we (men and ladies) never really grow up - we're still doing show and tell - in more subtle but even more harmful ways. Instead of your pet frog, now it's bigger and better stuff (hopefully not bigger than size 4, tho right guys? LOL - sorry couldn't resist) A wife is more than a possession to show off, rather she is someone to keep to yourself and cherish. and what is beautiful you cover up properly and you are not desperate for the whole world to see. Gila Manolson talks about this in her book called "outside/inside" - i reccomend it to all!

Shevs, it sounds like you got a great husband because he values you and doesn't want to share you with the rest of the world. Any woman who flaunts her body knowing she is receiving all this attention truly needs a self esteem boost. I have met plenty of girls like this.

But on with it..... Although we shouldn't be walking around with see thru or too tight or too short clothing showing off all our assets or lack of them, doesn't mean we have the right (yes the right) to go around like harried shlumps in baggy clothing. A ba'alas teshuva once told me that you don't realize how much the rest of the world, esp irreligious ppl are checking u out - not to sound too sappy - she told me that we are like walking sifrei torah. Is the mantel of a sefer torah a shlumpy too large black jersey with a too long frumpy black pleated skirt or a two week out of the cleaners greying shirt worn every day, with pants that you can see your reflection in? no way! Therefore, we have to dress accordingly. There is nothing wrong with dressing with it and trendy as long as you don't go overboard. you can wear what is in style in a tasteful and aidel way. it's funny because i myself like to dress trendy but i don't either like to call too much unwanted attention so you have to just make sure that the whole overall look "shtims" - i have a friend who told me that i would buy a funky necklace and make it look aidel and she buys the same thing and it looks bummy - it's just that the shirt is too tight or something like that. yes, we are far from perfect and we always have to improve in the areas of modesty but we also have to always look appropriate because we are on show for the world. and yes, on a more individual level, you have to also look presentable so your husband/wife feels pride when they are around you - that you look good and put together - not to make yourself into a slut (pardon my french) but that shows that you want to dress well for your husband cuz you want to look good for him. (added bonus - shvuger will be proud too) And even more so, it's so imp to do this more in the home than outside. I have a teacher who has drilled into us that when we i'yh get married, we should take 5 min right before your husband comes home to make yourself attractive and presentable - it shows you care!
i don't know, maybe my views are a little warped and this is just an excuse for me to be a shopaholic and buy fun clothes but if it is with taste then gezuntaheit!!

ohh and one more thing.......... why do so many girls walk the "bais yaakov shlump"? hold your head high, straighten your posture and already that will make a world of difference!
sorry for rambling!

8/09/2006 1:51 PM
Anonymous said...
ms shtark welcom back

8/11/2006 1:54 PM
nakedbochur said...
Eli: amazing as usual, keep them coming!!!

8/11/2006 3:00 PM
Josh said...
Shevs - YOU may be a trophy, but the very thought that any person (man or woman) is valued for their looks alone is problematic. Obviously, as others noted, there is a difference between put together and stylish on one hand, and revealing and enticing on the other. A women can be beautiful without flaunting it, to men or women.

I would certainly be suspicious of a spouse's motives in encouraging such superficial behavior. It's probably just pushing the limits, but it's important that a couple recognize their motivations and not just unwittingly further degeration of values in the frum world.

Unfortunately, even in the frum world, the spirit of the law is often lost. People think that wearing a skirt and a shaitel is enough in Gd's eyes, and the rest of the decisions are up to their whims.

Eli, thanks for reminding us that we need to constantly be on the look out for what our real motivations are. Even if we aren't perfect, we can at least be aware of whether we are acting in a frum way or not.

8/14/2006 9:47 PM
Anonymous said...
looks like "somone" is on honey moon, hope u havin a great time see u after bein hazmanim lol

8/17/2006 2:35 PM
David_on_the_Lake said...
I'm a little late to the party...
I'm not quite sure what the issue is here..to be honest with you. I think it's wonderful that people are proud of their spouses. I'm proud of my wifes beauty and talents and she's proud to show off mine. Do we feel used..?? God forbid.
Someone who feels the need for his wife to dress provoctavely sounds like to me like a far deeper issue.

8/20/2006 6:54 PM
Der Roov said...
It seems like some people have no clue what the word Tznius means. Like the ones who like to write they dress "Tznius but stylish." Tznius is not a sleeve length. It's an attitude. If your arms are covered to your palms with a bright red, skin tight, leather bodice, and your legs with a floor length, but very tight dress of the same color, you may be covered, but you're not tznius by any means. There was never a levaya of a Yerushalmi old timer where the maspid said she was: "eesha chashuva shelavsha tznuah". Either she was an Eesha Tznua or she wasn't. The woman herself was a "Tznua", not her mode of dress. If she was covered head to toe in the typical moslem garb, while talking loudly on a cell phone, taking a short cut through the parking lot past the front door of the bais mederesh, it fails the tznius test. Anything a woman does to attract attention to herself in the presence of men shows a lack of tznius. If any of the women need further explanations, ask any 14 or 15 year old girl in Williamsburgh, Viznitz, Kiryas Yoel, or New Square to explain it to you.

8/20/2006 7:02 PM
Halfnutcase said...
as i see tznius appaulingly reduced to the "women must not be seen by men" insanity.

sickening.

8/20/2006 9:59 PM
Gavi said...
der roov has understood why I brought up the issue of tznius.

8/21/2006 12:21 AM
Anonymous said...
I think the roov is such a freakin gaylord

8/21/2006 2:46 PM
Halfnutcase said...
anon, from what i know of elisheva she really would not apriciate you putting such mean spirited and derogatory comments toward someone on her blog.

speak respectfully please.

(and elisheva, again please excuse my forwardness in saying this instead of waiting for you to say it)

8/23/2006 9:08 PM
trixies86 said...
before we worry about weather we are trophies to our husbands maybe we should think wheather deep down we want to be trophies to them, wheather they are trophies to us, and wheather we are trophies to ourselves (do we show ourselves off).

8/26/2006 11:56 PM
MeabedAtzmo said...
Actually SEm you make great points and raise very valid questions. Guys whos wives are currently not much to look at are nicshal in looking at other guys wives all the time, although this is exactly what the aseres hadibros speaks about(as forbidden I may add). Are there any easy answers? I don't think so. iTs a personal war with the yetzer that we have to deal with and if a guy succeeds in shmiras Aynayim he is like a tzaddik ,if not his life is hell no matter which way you slice it. If you look you just want more of what you cant have, and if you act on it in any variety of ways, you have hell in this world and the next. So whats the eytzah? therapy? counseling? Divorce???? no easy way out and no easy answers .... Damned whatever you do..
oh well thats life hehehhe

8/30/2006 12:03 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i'm kinda worried about elisheva, hope she comes back soon. I think everyone misses her.

9/11/2006 10:51 PM
Anonymous said...
Keshiva v'chsima tova to one and all.

9/18/2006 1:02 PM