Wednesday, September 24, 2008

The Frum Woman's Office Scene

Wednesday, November 09, 2005
The Frum Woman's Office Scene

OK. A new post! Wow! Like it’s been so long I don’t even know where to begin. So like first of all thanx to all of you for still checking into my blog and commenting and stuff. Not meaning to brag or anything (right! lol) I think it is almost up to 10,000 visits and I am amazed at that. Seriously, I feel a need to mention it at the risk of it sounding show-offy to like thank all of you for your interest. I hope it means there was stuff people took an interest in and perhaps an idea we could share.

I also so have to apologize for my sporadic visits of late – especially not being able to e-mail (you know who you are) when I so wanted to. To answer all the questions, it was not directly linked to the takanos everyone has been hearing about, but they did make my father aware of what he never was before. I thought laying low was best for me in the long run. OK, so what has been on my mind?

So like this is my first year working and I got a job in an office in a very frum place in town. My office is mainly a ladies’ office and I have little to do with the men whom I work for. So while I have heard lots about the men/women stuff going on in heimish offices here in Lakewood and also in other frum places (BP, FB, and like even an e-mail from someone in Yerushalayim!), my main point here is the vaiberish stuff going on amongst us girls/women.

To get to the point, my office has a very heimish, close atmosphere, which is nice actually. Everyone is easygoing, understanding, helpful, etc. Obviously there is lots of talking going on which I guess I expected and at first thought was nice. Of course there totally is lots of innocent stuff, clothing (what else!), kids, recipes, in-laws (gosh did I hear stuff in that dept.!), and such kind of stuff.

What surprised me was the amount of intimate things being discussed pretty openly. Or I guess I should say what I thought was intimate. Cause like it doesn’t seem that intimate anymore when the whole office is aware of your husband’s favorite style in lingerie, what kind of massage he likes, what you do when you notice him looking at other ladies, you get my drift.

So let me admit that my initial reaction was one of surprise, and also like I have to admit I was very curious. I guess we are all yentas deep down and like have this thing to know what is going on by other people in this dept. Besides which I am obviously like very curious about lots of these things cause I don’t yet have the real life stuff which I can’t wait for. So I totally was listening, though I felt bad for hearing all this and I though like I can’t believe they are discussing stuff like this is such a way!

But like on second thought I was wondering maybe even though I think for my very sheltered background I am pretty open-minded and stuff, like maybe deep down I am still a prude. I mean, is it really so bad talking about this with a friend? Who else should we discuss such things with? Like we are so closed off from the world in so many ways so how are people to find out about things if not at least to like talk with other girls in their same situation?

Having just come back from sem in Israel, I realized that this is really an extension of what was bothering me about lots of stuff there. Perhaps there it was more physical experimenting and flirting going on, but like the basic thing was the same. It is a new openness about such stuff with other frum girls which we never had in school. So I thought, why am I getting all shocked at these ladies when I talk with friends about intimate desires and we wonder about stuff I never would have done before? Like maybe it is natural that a person has to find stuff out, and isn’t it better to do it with other frum girls than to learn from goyish magazines and stuff in the doctor’s offices?

One of my friends insists that it is very wrong all this talking and comparing about intimate things. She says that she knows from what she has heard from her married friends who talk very openly about lots of such things too (even in front of her and she is still single!) that a lot of it is simply what one person read in those very same goyish magazines, and then it gets passed from person to person in the yenting line and it brings in a bad influence on us Jewish girls.

I mentioned this to one lady in my office. She is like one of two that are closer to my age and we sort of discussed this pretty openly. To be honest she was pretty embarrassed the first time she realized I was sitting there when she was like talking with another lady about how her husband just wants to “get his thing done”, while she so needs to be fondled and pleasured etc. and how frustrated she is. (I am trying not to get into too much examples and bring down the post with titillating tidbits, but like just one thing to show you exactly how uncomfortable I was at first – and yes, titillated and curious.)

So like we had a long talk and she said she feels without the office chat she would have nowhere to turn. Like she could NEVER talk about such stuff with her regular friends, which I totally sympathize with. So she said that as bad as it sounds, these are not goyish topics really, like frum people get married too. So like where should she find things out if we are so sheltered if not for having a place where she is comfortable yenting with other ladies about these things. She even told me that in the specific case which I mentioned that I overheard, the other lady (who by the way is a totally yeshivish lady) told her of things guys love to get teased with (I won’t get into specifics, though she told me cause like “maybe I’ll need to know one day too”. I’m not sure…), and she said that she tried some things and they really helped in getting some of what she wanted from her husband.

In short, is it like really very bad all this comparing and open discussion and like does it show how goyish we have become? Or is it really totally innocent chatting and if anything a good outlet for otherwise frum, sheltered ladies and girls? About the goyish part it’s hard to know from comparing cause like on one hand someone told me that she never hears even the shiksas talk like this. But on the other hand, my sister-in-law works in a non-Jewish office and she has horror stories about the stuff that is so openly discussed there about sex, boyfriends, husbands, preferences etc. both by men and women working there. She goes crazy about it. But like maybe it just depends on the office atmosphere.

As a total aside, there was one thing which I heard from two different girls and thought it was so strange until I saw this thing in Moochy’s latest post. (Yes, I have been jumping online at times, but had no time to comment.) It seems there is this major thing with ladies having crushes (or worse?) on their brothers-in-law. I thought it weird at first, like hey, it’s family, but now it sounds like this is one aspect that is iffy in the “is it family or not” thing. Girls don’t seem to feel bad looking at their brothers-in-law in horny ways.

I have only one brother-in-law and he is actually a great guy and I was always happy for my sister, but I guess I never really though of him in the way these girls were talking. I won’t act like I am above stuff and I definitely was influenced by what I heard and I will admit some nights later I was thinking about all this and wondered about my brother-in-law. I guess such thoughts can get pretty arousing if he happens to be a hot guy once you think of it. So does this like show that I should never have heard this and prove that such talk is wrong? Or is it sometimes healthy so we just have to learn to control ourselves when we have to?

posted by Elisheva @ 2:50 PM

208 Comments:
Racheli said...
Welcome back. You were truly missed.

3:50 PM
Josh said...
Elisheva - Welcome back! I can't fully comment (I'm still at work), so more later, but I just wanted to say that in my office, I hear almost no inappropriate office talk about private matters. And I work in quite the non-Jewish environment. While every office is different, it seems curiuos that the "Heimishness" of your office is exactly what enables this openness. Good thing or bad thing? I'll have to get back to you.

But for now, it's just good to hear from you!

5:43 PM
Me said...
This post has been removed by the author.

6:51 PM
Y.Y. said...
it should be perfectly ok to talk about it with friends

6:54 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i wouldn't know from personal expiriance but some level of this kind of dialogue on verying levels of explicitness have been going on ever scince there was more than one jewish wife alive at the same time. just depends on where you are comfortable with it i guess. you do happen to be a kallah maidel and it will, im eretz hashem be important for you to know some of those things, and then you too will probably find your own place to discuss these things (again this is only from what i understand and friends have told me! i don't know much about that particular topic honest so please no questions)

but on the other side, it's true that every office has their ownm atmosphere and at a very heimishe office i could really expect this kind of talk. if you don't want to hear it for one reason or a nother speak out.

7:22 PM
EN said...
Welcome back!

8:19 PM
ms. shtark said...
hey nice to hear from you again. i work in a non-jewish office. we are pretty chilled out with each other but this level of intimate chit chat is never discussed in the office. it is too personal. u kind of need that professional boundary but i could see this going on in a frum office with a bunch of frum young women together.
the occasional joke about sex will be made but very impersonally - never from a person talking about his/her own situation

11:06 PM
Semgirl said...
Fantastic post, Elisheva. But then all your posts are. You made my day (strike that, my week)

I have only worked in Goyish places or gone to college, so I dont know.

But one thing that is very troublesome, to me is how the frummest looking ladies with the snoods over their forehead in the street, suddenly when its Friday nite and all the men are in Shul and they are alone in a living room in one of the houses in the complex will talk about all sorts of stuff. And I dont mean insights on the weekly parsha.

12:11 AM
Elisheva said...
Hi! Gosh, it's been a long time. Thanx for all the welcome messages. I really missed you all. (OK, not all, almost all, lol!)

First off I feel I have to mention that now that I am back online somewhat, I have been looking at all the blogs I used to check into, and I was at Bas Torah's blog. (I know as a sigle I like should probably not be there, but I guess I am totally not a saint..) SO like I saw that her last post was really a very similar issue to mine, if not like almost the same one. I guess this is more prevalent than we think. I just want to say I didn't realize she had done it, and maybe I would have chose another topic. I so don't want it to seem like I took her topic. But I guess that just like each group of ladies have their own discussions about sex with each other, so like different groups here can have different discussions about discussiouns about sex between ladies!

Sounds like most of you here have less of a problem in the non-Jewish environment. It totally makes sense that it's the comraderie and feeling of the same of like loads of stuff that makes us more open about this too. Again, is that good or bad? My sister-in-law works in a hospital so the atmosphere there is very different than an average office, so maybe that's why it is so much worse there.

SemGirl, you hit it right on the point as usual. I had my experience with those Friday night shmoozes too. What makes all that OK, especially like everyone feels a need to help her unmarried friends in this dept. for when we will IY"H be married. Like is there sometimes too much information? And even amongst married girls only, is all the talk and yent about this stuff OK?

Shalom

8:37 AM
Anonymous said...
Come on Elisheva after last post we thought we would get more interesting details... we need to know more specifics of the conversations in order to comment.

9:21 AM
Anonymous said...
Please encourage all your Jewish women friends to take up oral.

Hopefully it will spread throughout the Jewish community and Moshiach will finally come.

No pun intended.

12:14 PM
powder said...
Hello Elisheva,
I am new to your blog, and was amused to see this post after I had seen the same thing on Bas Torah's blog!
I have worked in Heimish environments, and gone to a secular college, and never did I hear any of this talk although I was harrassed by some of my "Frum" male co-workers.
I will write here what I wrote there. When I first got married, I did speak about some of the things I did with some friends and sisters, and now I regret it. My husband was embaressed and a little hurt that I couldnt talk to him and that I was talking about our personal lives. I also chalk it up to a bit of immaturity, and excitement that you want to share with your friends. I dont talk about my personal life with anyone anymore. Its MY life. Even if I would discuss it with someone, it would NEVER be at the workplace.
I am sorry these women have no one to vent to, but comparing war stories is kind of un-Tznius. When offices are more professional, I really dont think this type of thing goes on, but that is my opinion.
If you value your personal life, you wont air it out like dirty laundry.
As for family crushes, I read Moochy's post too, and I must say its sad. I also have never experienced that. I love my husband, I respect him, and he is all I need.
Hashem should be "Mimaleh kul mishalos libeich li tovah" and may you find what you are looking for soon.

3:21 PM
SS said...
I think it is inappropriate to "vent" about personal issues to a whole office full of people. If it is absolutely necessary, find one person who you feel really comfortable with (probably someone who doesn't know your spouse or whoever else the story is about, so that you can avoid uncomfortable situations later), and talk to that one person in a manner that is productive. If you are just whining, I don't think that counts. Nobody, NOBODY, should be in your bedroom except you and your husband (soon by you), and G-d. Who else needs to be there? If there is a really serious problem and professional help is needed, go for it, but your best friend is not a professional (and even if she is, I don't think she is the right one in this case).

Welcome back, and great entry.

4:02 PM
Anonymous said...
first of all, welcome back. In the absence of Gadol Hador we need someone to fill the void. My bubby had a saying which loses some of its flavor when translated into english but it goes something like " what's in the goyish world is also in the Jewish worlrd". Take my word for it. Frum people have sex, cheat on spouses and in business. Also Frum people, who daven, give tzadeka and wear synthetic wigs get sick and die just like the rest of us

6:13 PM
Josh said...
OK, I've thought it over. As has been suggested, I think the "heimisheness" of your office has let people's professional guard down. While that might seem nice, I don't think it's a good thing. Intimate details are intimate details. Not only do they not belong in an office for professional reasons, but as frum Jews, we should have higher expectations for Hilchos Tznius. Sure, every topic may need to be discussed with somebody, but a public forum is no place for private details. Tznius doesn't mean what you wear. So what excuse is there for a bunch of frum women to talk about this as a group, whether in the office or in the home Friday night? Talk about it with your spouse, with a professional, or discreetly with somebody else you trust. And that's before taking the husband's feelings into account, as Powder mentioned.

I think this is part of a larger issue, where the frum world overly focuses on specific things, such as shaitels and yeshivos, but doesn't fully ingrain the actual Hashkafic underpinning of the Mitzvos. Frum women should know that discussing their bedroom experiences is no different than wearing a mini-skirt. Or maybe the problem is that too many people are frum for social reasons, and not for spiritual ones.

8:35 PM
Mrs. Dreykup said...
Elisheva-
I too, work in a frum, heimeshe office. I spend 8 hours a day, 4 or 5 days a week with these girls/women. That's more time then I spend with my husband!! Inevitabely, you become real friends with these people as they are frum and approximately your age. I don't know about other people, but I talk to my co-workers outside of the work environment as well. It makes sense that such "friendly" talk does not take place in a non-frum office as people don't feel as close to one another as they have nothing more in common other then the fact that they work together. As far as the appropriatness of such conversation, who else are you supposed to talk about such things? Yes, it would be nice to say that if we all just didn't talk about it, none of us would have expectations or start comparing but bottom line is, anyone who is reading this post has access to the internet and many other outside influences. We all know what is out there in the world. We are all influenced. Yes, what happens in the bedroom is definately private and specifics should absolutely be left out but if there is something that someone feels they need to talk about, who better to talk to then a good friend? No matter how "frum" you are, most people have something they feel they need to speak about to someone on the outside who may know what she is talking about. I do not, however, think it is appropriate to have open discussions amongst a whole group of people, especially if one or more of those people is NOT married.

10:06 PM
frumlkwdgrl said...
your taking an extreme case and making it the norm,

10:42 PM
modernorthomale said...
hey elisheva! i just started reading ur blog and it is awesome! I feel very similar on a lot of things (even though im a guy). this post was awesome, even though it probably wasnt great for my neshama (im sure u know what i mean, if not ask). Also, i think the over/under on how many times you said the word "like" is 30"! have a great shabbos!

2:17 PM
Anonymous said...
Modern, LOL.
Not meaning to poke fun, E, but you DO say "like" a lot, and u sound like you do a lot of teenage speak. (ie: totally, sooo , etc)Its cute.

2:30 PM
Elisheva said...
OK. Sorry about the teen-speak. Yes, everyone teases me about it always, so go ahead, i'm used to it. I actually thought i tried to like cut down on it in this latest post, but I guess I didn't really succeed. Gosh! I wrote like again! Sorry.

Seems there are lots of opinions which I hope to deal with more on Motzei Shabbos. I thought over stuff and I think one main point I should point out is that I think we would all totally agree that no one should discuss such stuff in public. I mean like even all the ladies in my office would agree. I just think they consider this among freinds, like a cozy place you can finally discuss stuff you couldn't anywhere else.

It isn't everyone sitting around and having a group discussion. Maybe I didn't make that clear. It's more like when two or three women are together copying, or filing or whatever, it will be discussed only amongst them. But I have to admit one of them might later tell someone else what she heard, like something she wondered about if that was OK, or good or whatever. And it does happen that others can overhear. But it isn't like totally public discussion.

More after Shabbos. Good Shabbos and Shalom

3:13 PM
Anonymous said...
Josh. please spare us all about the miniskirt. It's a mitzvah to cover up those fat calves and piano legs

6:21 PM
Dr. Dreykup said...
Hey Elisheva, I work in a large goyish firm and the people who do their own thing and have nothing much to do with their co-workers may not hear much or discuss much but after time passed am ive worked with a lot of ppl you should only hear the gross and unrepeatable stories I hear daily from the goyim about all the details of their s-x life... and im talking about a lot of goyim - not just a few. So in the frum workplace ppl feel close to eachother and relate well to eachother from the get-go but once goyim get to that comfort level with you its even worse...
PS - I finally posted a solution on my blog to my last post - id love to hear what you think! g-vuch!

7:18 PM
modernorthomale said...
Elisheva- I am sorry if i embarrassed you- it was wrong of me to make the comment- i am really sorry!

9:37 PM
Litvshe said...
Welcome back Elisheva,

Anyway...I certainly think it's fine if women discuss these things. As you mentioned it seems to at least helped one woman. That said, there is someone to say for tznius in these matters. I mean if you talk about it to a close friend in private, great. It's important to get encouragement/help/tips from people you trust. Though, maybe the whole group therapy thing isn't so bad. As long as there are no men around... I guess each case should be weighed on a case by case base for telling your significant other. Personally, it wouldn't bother me if my wife discussed these things with her friends, but I know guys, who I'm sure would be mortified.

On the other hand...one might need to look at the laws of nivul peh. Though I think in this case it might be more stingent for men...

7:41 AM
Semgirl said...
I know a lot of bochurim, are going to take me to task for the following. If you are ehrlich, I suggest you go Here and stay away from way from veibishe blogs.

Neway, Elisheva its so funny, you brought this up, and like that’s all I have been hearing lately. Friday nite, my father went to davern in this very Chasidish place, and came home late because he doesn’t make Kiddush till after 7, so there was a lot of time to talk.

The topic, came up about who pleases who, This one lady, I’ll call her Rivky (names have been changed , etc…) , was complaining that the Calla teachers and Rebittzens are always telling the ladies what they have to do for the husbands. Meanwhile, its his mitzva of Onah. They spend 300$ for the nicest esrog, get the best possible Sofer for the best possible Tefillen. But when it comes to the mitzva of Onah, somehow they think “shtup , shtup”, is sufficient. When in reality if the lady isn’t fully satisfied you have not fulfilled the mitzva at all. In fact you are just ruining the Shalom Bayis. She got so passionately angry that she was really turning red. I was so uncomfortable. But I guess its better then going into a marriage totally na├»ve and stuff.

1:37 PM
Eshet Chayil said...
I've seen it too many times. It's a natural reaction to start wondering when things are mentioned. I mean, people need to learn what's private, and what's public. Who cares if her husband like boxers of briefs...not me.

3:28 PM
Elisheva said...
Hi again,

MOM, don't worry, I totally don't mind. I guess we all have our little things that we can't stop no matter how much we try. I can see how it can get to people. I have been told that it makes me cute, and that it makes me imposible to bear, so i guess I will have to marry someone from the first group. Wow! I think I managed in this paragraph!

SemGirl, it is truly funny, cause now that I am more aware, and also more friends are getting married and also i think married people like are more open with a girl who is post sem, I do se it so much.

I don't think it usually is public as in really public to qualify as without good taste. it is usually among a close-knit group of two or three. Maybe there are cases of even more very close-knit friends, but I don't know.

I think it is more an issue like is it good or bad at all, or like some say, does it like depend on every case. Cause I totally can see how it can be looked at such a breach of privacy, on the other hand, it an really help and be a healthy outlet. Then again I won't deny we all have a desire to hear and read about such stuff, so maybe it is just simple evil desire.

From the guys it's funny cause I thought they never dreamed what goes on and they would be really upset and it seems most whom I heard from like totally don't mind their wives learning stuff and comparing stuff with other girls, even girls they know. That did surprise me, but if so maybe it isn't such a breach of privacy.

Josh, as usual you identified the reason it happens very well. But like most of your problem was the tznius issue of making these things public. I wonder though what about intimate Friday night discussions with a friend, or among close office friends. It is not so public, but is it still really a horrible untznius thing, or like others say, like maybe we all are exposed so at least this can be a semi-private way of finding stuff out and making things better.

Shalom

4:26 PM
Moochy said...
Hi Girl,
Nice post.
Thanx for the mention.
Lets not kid ourselves , everyone loves to talkl about it, and thats why you have so many comments on these issues.
In all , what people didnt pick up here , is that it made you aware of your Brother in law's existance in a sexual way, and that might become a problem....

5:06 PM
Yossi said...
Hey Elisheva, great blog!

I am from Lakewood and was shocked and happy to see what you wrote about in-laws and I also checked out Moochy's blog. I am in a very uncomfortable situation with my own sister-in-law and thought it must be such a rare thing and who would ever understand. So I was in a way happy to see that i am obviously not alone, though it is still not any help.

My sister-in-law Yehudis (don't worry she has no internet access), always acts VERY flirty and intimate with me. I first thought I was fooling myslef, maybe because she is pretty and I will admit acts very sexy so maybe it's just a guy trying to tell himself the girls like him etc. But then my wife started mentioning it to me alot about isn't she getting too far with me, always "by mistake" bumping into me, giving me these huge smiles and telling me things I probably would be better off not knowing.

I think she has problems communicating with her husband, and I admit people do open up to me alot, but this is very sticky. I am human, she is sexy and cute and I know this just is crazy, but I see she really needs someone to talk to. I think they need help, but I could never tell her this.

I guess i am unloading here for lack of a better venue although this is of no consequence to anyone, but now I see she isn't totally abnormal and there seems to be a thing making it OK to have a crush on an in-law. But doesn't it say "ain apotropus larayos"?

6:21 PM
Y.Y. said...
yossi you got a great fantasy

6:38 PM
modernorthomale said...
elisheva- no i dont mind at all. in fact i think it is cute. anywyas, ill speak to u later.

8:46 PM
Josh said...
Three more quick opinions -

1) In reaction to Yossi, and I guess Moochy and Elisheva, those closest represent the highest risk because we tend to let our guard down. It's one thing to take a quick look at somebody you pass on the street...and will probably never see again, and another thing altogether to toe the line with a "relative" that you will regularly encounter in private situations. It's hard, but stay away, and communicate your perception to your spouse. An ally helps.

2) As far as the Tznius factor of discussing *personal* issues with close friends, I don't think that as long as you only tell it in front of one person, it's Tznius. There is a difference between having one confidante in the world whom you fully open up with - and gabbing idividually with every woman you run into about your frustrations and fantasies, no matter where you might be.

3) Finally, my reaction to Elisheva's phish for guy's personal opinion's on the matter. As a guy, I would be humiliated if I knew my wife was talking about our *personal* life with ANYONE. It's definitely a don't ask, don't tell situation. Hopefully, we'd speak about it between the two of us, but if for whatever reason she needed to speak to somebody else for an opinion, I don't know if I could face that person if I knew they spoke to my wife. I may not be a courageous guy, but I'm honest.

8:59 PM
Anonymous said...
Talking about a problem with a friend is one thing. Talking about such things regularly is a sure recipe for a lack of intimacy in marriage. you are getting a VERY bad model from these women, elisheva.

"Rivky" seems to be in a bad marriage and she seems to have a bad attitude to men (hard to know which came first, but I bet it's a vicious cycle). Her friends should not let her jabber on. They should tell her this is not a good thing or to be expected, to talk to her husband, and maybe to think about counseling for the two of them since if this is a young couple this is a very odd pattern to be in so early.

You should stay away. You are learning VERY bad patterns from these women. Women who feel loved don't talk about their sex life to their friends.

5:37 AM
NormalJew said...
I'm like wow! she posted finally. totally awesome. like, hello! You totally didnt comment on my blog in like ages. ( I am making fun, but in good humor ;-)

Great post! Nothing wrong with girls or ladies amongst themselves dicussing their lives! why not?

You need to open up your mind a bit more, thas all!

Peace!

NJ from NJ

9:27 AM
shira22 said...
There is nothing wrong with "girl talk" if the purpose is to exchange information and learn from the experiences of others. Men and women don't always think alike or understand each other, so a woman can benefit from talking to her friends.
It only becomes vulgar when the purpose is showing off or ridiculing the poor fellow's performance.
If done with the proper attitude, men can also benefit from girl talk.

12:29 PM
shira22 said...
..I meant to say that men can benefit from the results of girl talk. Sometimes women need to learn from each other. Of course, such discussions should only take place among women who feel close and at ease with each other.

12:39 PM
Elisheva said...
Can I ask who 'Rivky' is? Or is this like just slipping my mind?

2:23 PM
Semgirl said...
They are referring to my comment. Not her real name, obviously..

9:08 PM
Anonymous said...
"Nothing wrong with girls or ladies amongst themselves dicussing their lives! why not?"
"There is nothing wrong with "girl talk" if the purpose is to exchange information and learn from the experiences of others. Men and women don't always think alike or understand each other, so a woman can benefit from talking to her friends.
It only becomes vulgar when the purpose is showing off or ridiculing the poor fellow's performance.
If done with the proper attitude, men can also benefit from girl talk."


There's nothing wrong with talking to your mother about your husband, or yoru husband talking to his mom about you. But you know, when the wife COMPLAINS to her mother, or the husband complains to his mother, it's called "Triangulating"
It's a way of bringing a third party into the relationship and not having an intimate relationship between the pair.
It's also OK to talk to your kids about your spouse. But not to complain, and similarly you don't involve your friends on a constant basis in the details of your sex life just to "share." If you do, something is wrong. It's not more complicated than that.

Marriage is not high school. This isn't your friend, that you gossip about.

And it's worse if your husband minds, but this is true even if he doesn't.

9:52 PM
Anonymous said...
"I also chalk it up to a bit of immaturity, and excitement that you want to share with your friends. "

That's right. It's immature, and a holdover from high school to think this is something to discuss with "Friends" like a trip, or a shopping expedition.

If you want to have a good marriage, you have to grow up!

Even in the nonjewish world, It's considered very tacky to talk about your spouse, or even anyone you are seriously dating. Except for very low-class types, people talk about people they are casually dating. When they get serious, they stop talking.

9:59 PM
Elisheva said...
OK. So it sounds like most people think that in most cases the talk is totally wrong. Though some say it is normal, healthy and fine.

I also notied that I think most of the pros signed their names, while the cons were like anonymous. Why is that? Any ideas?

Personally I still can't make up my mind absolutely, though I so hear both sides. Like are the people saying it is bad, those frummy people who don't admit they do it too? Or are they people who have it right and the ones yapping about stuff are so like immature and stuff.

The truth is I have to admit that this very much reminds me of the talks we had in the dorm in sem. So in a way I thought OK so why is this different. on the other hand, perhaps that shows that it is immature talk, and we are like supposed to outgrow it. Our real marriage lives are more serious. OK, so I will give this more thought.

Shalom

12:06 AM
nobody28 said...
Elisheva - I am new to your blog - I am a married woman who lives in Lakewood.

I work in a non-jewish office. There is NO private talk here - unless 2 people are really close friends - I guess they may talk - but no one else would hear. I do not think it is appropriate to discuss this type of stuff with so many people.

I personally have one really good friend that I have known for almost 15 years, that I can talk to a little. And we still don't get to graphic. I know my husband would NOT appreciate it, and hers probably wouldn't either. But it does help to have some one to talk to when you need it. But ONE person - not a group.

There - you have a "con" that's not anonymous.

(And don't listen to NormalJew - he's a perv in my opinion.)

9:43 AM
shira22 said...
Grow up, folks! I'm nor talking about adolescent gigling. I'm talking about a frank, mature woman to woman talk. Perhaps I should not have used the term "girl talk"
I wouldn't speak to my mom or shvigger because They are not objective enough. Also I'm not gonna speak to my shvigger about her own son. That's creepy! I would speak to trusted friends who are wise and mature. I believe the correct term would be the fellowship or comraderie of women with their friends.

10:38 AM
powder said...
I gave my opinion against it, and I wasnt anonymous.

12:38 PM
Me said...
Just reposting what I removed further up (sorry Elisheva).

I've only ever worked in non-Jewish/non-frum environments, and I can tell you that the talk there is usually non-intimate. When you work with people your own age, though, it tends to get more familiar - people are interested in you, your family, husband (or boyfriend) etc. But not the intimate details you mentioned in your blog. It's very important to set boundaries in your work environment, otherwise feelings of discomfort just increase over time. It's important to keep your workplace professional, not personal.

Amongst girls (or women), those types of discussion are generally reserved for very close friends. But it does help to talk about things - it's kind of like a form of (free) therapy.

Set boundaries. If certain types of discussion make you feel uncomfortable, don't be drawn into the conversation - find something else to do, or change the topic.

Also, isn't a part of Avinu Malkeinu
to do with "salacious talk"?

5:35 PM
BrooklynJewishGuy said...
elisheva: It's time for a new blog.

Listen to the wise women here, i.e., me, shira22, Mrs. dreykup, powder and a couple of the more recent anonymous's.

As far as moochy's post about the intimate in-laws, really now. Don't blow it up out of proportion. I believe it CAN happen, but I tend to think (as yy said above to yossi)......... it's (only) a great fantasy. It don't happen too much.

Anything REAL and INTERESTING you wanna discuss?

6:12 PM
Josh said...
BJG, now play nice. Elisheva has this space to address whatever's on her mind. If we need to balance out the Lakewood Yentas (I agree with you) and put Eli's questions in perspective, that's fine. But the hostess gets to steer the conversation...

9:53 PM
Elisheva said...
First of all I totally never meant to insult any cons who did use their name. I am like so sorry if anyone got insulted. I just thought their were MORE con opinions without a name.

I thought over the whole issue. I think I have to agree that it probably is not a right thing besides like a real close and good friend when you really want to know if there is other stuff to please your husband or like whatever and like how else should you find out.

I think it is true that lots of the shmoozing is simply like we are humans and deep down have desires and get horny and this is one of the ways we get aroused. I didn't think married people would still have it like this, but i guess I am learning that somethings never go away.

So I am not saying i wouldn't do it, just like I still tease guys and flirt sometimes when i shouldn't. I am so not a saint. But at least i think i admit I know it really is wrong and should be avoided.

Shalom

12:21 AM
tuesdaywishes said...
If you are shmoozing with your best friends and there are no men or kids and you want to let your hair down, that's your business, but to discuss sex in front of an unmarried woman is cruel. It's just as bad as talking about pregnancy and parenting in front of someone you know to be infertile. (The same women are probably guilty of that too.)

Another warning; people repeat things. They just do, even after all of the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundations videos and classes and projects. So when you confide to your friend, or group of friends, and one of them tells her sister, who tells her husband, who sits next to your husband in shul and wonders if the story about the Fruit Roll-Up is true... three people can keep a secret if two of them are dead.

12:24 AM
powder said...
tuesdaywishes, you hit it on the button. When these women discuss their sex lives, do they really think no one is going to leave and tell their next friend or husband, "Do you know what X does? She doesnt seem the type" or what not. I have had personal experience with that kind of thing. Someone once told me something very interesting about her friend, and I never asked to hear this information. It was just told to me because it seemed so "juicy".
I repeat, in the beginning it may seem fun to talk about, because its new and exciting, but its only harmful, hurtful and immature. Buy a book, or seek a professional.

9:00 AM
shira22 said...
Once again,I said mature conversation with trusted friends. That does not mean the locker room at the gym! Also if a lady is doing such kinky things with her husband that she is really ashamed of it,perhaps she ought to listen to he conscience. Leave the kinky stuff to the porn industry and the fruit roll-ups in the kids lunch bags.
For the record, Elisheva, a husband has a chiev de orisa to please his wife. It's called the mitzvah of oinor(pardon the transliteration). The wife does not have the same chiev. It is also assur for him to coerce the wife into doing anything she doesn't want to do. He, on the other hand has to do whatever he can to please his wife. I know they don't tell you that in seminary and I'm willing to bet they don't inform bochurim of that either.

10:36 AM
David said...
Hey Elisheva,
Welcome back to blogland..(I know..I'm a little late..)
Goodness..what a loaded topic. I have a group of "friends" that also always seem to talk about these things...and I find it terrible. There's nothing wrong with talking to friends privately..but a big sex conversation in an office about spouses is not a healthy situaltion.
As for the inner family crushes..I grew up in a house where one of my parents was/is a therapist..and I can tell you RUN away as fast as you can from even considering such a relationship...You can't fathom the damage it causes..

Cheers
D

12:59 PM
Anonymous said...
So shira22 if they don't tell you that in seminary from where did you find out about it? For your information bochurim learn gemorah so they know this fact already and women might not have a chiev of onah as you call it but they have certain obligations to their husbands know something before you post nonesense.

4:48 PM
Anonymous said...
Like i'ts probably like best like you should get like married like sooner rather then like later. Like like like like like like like like......

5:42 PM
Semgirl said...
Anon 1 re: Shira , I was going to say something along those lines, but didnt see the pt in being nasty and offensive .

Anon 2: Like that is so funny, like I fell off my chair laughing.
Sorry, Shevy just teasing you..

6:46 PM
Elisheva said...
OK, So LIKE (if only my friends knew I was getting teased in blogland as well...) Shira, I don't know who you are addressing, but like anyone who is online and loads of others too know all about that. And I also agree that even if we don't have the real chiyuv of onah, we surely have an obligation to make our husbands happy, even if only to like make sure our marriages are solid and then we ourselves can be happy.

David, don't worry, I wouldn't dream of going there. I just said how i like had the passing thought and it was something I had never even thought about before. But I have reciebed two e-mails, from this Yossi guy and from one lady who says she is married and living in BP.

It definitely looks like people don't know where to stop and it seems like it's even cool in some circles to tell your friends you have a crush on your sibling-in-law. I don't think anyone has any thoughts to take that further, but they think just talking about the possibility is juicy or whatever, but I think this must come from being too exposed, cause like there has to be limits.

And this Yossi guy BTW does not seem fake. He so like also thought it was his imagination, so he was the first to admit that. But he said his wife and others totally picked up on it and now he has to face it. I would have maybe doubted him, but after hearing with my own ears a lady in my office totally gushing over how good-looking her brother-in-law is and how lucky his wife must be and she can only imagine... I tend to believe him. I think people have to be realistic even in their fantasies. Does that make sense?

Shalom

12:19 AM
David said...
Of course it makes sense. Fantasies are very real..and the line between fantasy and reality can blur very fast..but it has to be incubated..it has to evolve..all the pieces have to fall together for something to actually happen, and that is very much in our control. Hey, I have some very beautiful sister in laws..but for something to happen between me and them..is so remote. That's the whole idea of Yichud..etc..

9:25 AM
bleemy's blemishes said...
I say it is normal and healthy! I say frum people need tolighten up a bit!

10:42 AM
shira22 said...
Elisheva, anon;
The lady sets the tone of the house. Thus, if she is happy, everyone is happy. Haven't you guys ever heard the saying if mama aint happy, aint nobody happy.
Also a man doesn't truly feel like a man unless he can satisfy his woman. Thia is how he affirms his manliness. A mature man understands this.

11:59 AM
shira22 said...
.. a satisfied woman won't nag and will be more inclined to want to please the man. That's just how we're wired.

12:02 PM
shira22 said...
Re; brother or sister in law-
An in-law is not a blood relative, therefore it may be improper to be attracted to them, but not weird or incestuous. And as David said, we don't always have to act on our impulses.

12:08 PM
Anonymous said...
Shira22

You have been reading to many goyisher books. A frum man doesn't affirm his manliness with your nonesense you got the wrong religion. Boy I woudn't want to be married to you, marriage is a two way street no-one sets the tone. in any case how would you know how a man thinks are you a male or female. For your information there is no such thing as a satisfied woman they are only satisfied temporary every couple of hours or days they need another thing maybe some of you ladies out there can learn a little mussar and try to be happy with what you have not with what you percieve you need. Shira how many pieces of jewerly do you have are you happy or do you want another and another one. Hope you have a happy shabbos if that is possible.

1:45 PM
Anonymous said...
Anon above me, you sound very bitter. Did your wife not turn out like the slave you expected?

2:45 PM
Anonymous said...
anon above me, I guess you didn't read who I was responding to and no I am happily married 10+ and if you think as long as the man pleases his wife everything is dandy I pity you too.

3:33 PM
shira22 said...
Dear anon who doesn't have the nerve to use a screen name,
YOU have the wrong religion. According to the protestant religion, a husband has certain rights to his wife. Thus ahe is obligated to accommodate him whether she enjoys it or not. Queen Victoria advised her daughter that she should just lie there and think of England on her wedding night. Basically, the mother told the daughter that this is an obligation to her husband, regardless of her feelings on the matter. She'll be compensated with an heir to the throne. Unfortunately, some of this mentality has spread to our religion. We use the threat of him looking or thinking of other women as a justification to turn yiddishe tochters into tramps who wear sleazy garments and act the part of the wanton for their husbands. His obligations to her are totally forgotten. That's just plain wrong.

11:05 AM
shira22 said...
BTW, my kalla teacher told me that I am obligated to be available for him whenever he needs it. The idea of the lady being in the mood is goyish. She never mentioned anything about the mitzvah of oinor.....Sounds pretty protestant to me.

11:11 AM
Semgirl said...
Shira, for someone with a dream job, wonderful husband and family, you still sound very bitter.. Feel like sharing..

1:14 PM
shira22 said...
BH I'm qutte content with my life...IYH by you.

1:34 PM
Anonymous said...
Shira22
what's your last name why are you better then me by saying your first name? How would you know what bochurim are taught something doesn't smell right. Did you ever go back to your kallah teacher and tell her she taught you wrong? I will repeat you are a stating a lie, no bochurim are taught not to be sensitive to their wives and not to make sure their wives are happy. It is an out and out lie. Stop saying lies.

1:45 PM
Halfnutcase said...
while i don't know about the kalla and chosson teachers, i will vouch for essentialy everything shira is saying and I am a bochur, i have been to yeshiva, and have studied gemorah, shulchan aruch, and kitzur. shira is right on all counts.

on a semi side note if this is what they are teaching the chossanim and kallos these days, i'm not suprised the divorce rate is through the roof. we've shed all the things built in to the frum lifestyle that protect us from it.

4:32 PM
typically frum said...
you gotta post things more often.

7:28 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Time for me to jump in here... my 2cents:

Although most of the time when women get together in a fairly intimate setting they gravitate towards such "private" topics - most ladies with class will not go into detail! Yeah, they'll laugh along, and nod knowingly but they will NOT share their own private story. That's my experience.

One-on-One is a different story. Still, those of us with a little self-respect will not "give up" all the juicy, private, intimate goings-on IN DETAIL in our life.

Sure, when I first got married, all us really close newlywed friends would try to one-up each other... but that was, LIKE, SOOO immature and show-offy... and if I EVER said a little too much, I felt really, awful, and sorry, after that. AND it was really NOT in detail.

To sum it up: General shmoozing between an intimate group is normal... the ones in the conversation sharing GRAPHIC DETAILS are either - a) Lying b) Lacking c)immature d)all of the above.

But girl-talk? YEAH, that's normal.

Juicy girl-talk at work? - with strangers or near-strangers within hearing distance? - JUST PLAIN WEIRD. And, all of the above. And, wrong.

9:37 PM
turquoiseblue said...
regarding who has to please whom... are you kidding me? That is so the by-product of this "me-me" generation...

Don't you realize that a good relationship is all about "what can I do to please the other"? BECAUSE a) you get to love the "other" more by giving and b) you get it all back, and then some!

If you are going to be busy "But it SAYS that YOU are supposed to please ME!" you're so over. YOu'll never, ever, ever REALLY, TRULY be happy.

Ya give, you get.

Actually, if you give for the sake of getting, this formula doesn't work :)

9:41 PM
turquoiseblue said...
But, there's something I agree with Shira (gasp!). Some kallah teachers can really, really, screw up marriages! Big Time! I know that happened to a friend of mine - who was VERY NAIVE and really found everything out about marriage from her teacher. So this teacher DECIDED, that a frum man needs it once a week.

So naturally, this friend married a regular guy - who we all know doesn't work on the kallah teachers timetable... so she thought - oh my gosh, I must have married such a bum! And the marriage relationship in general starting spiraling downward...

Long story short, it took LOTS OF counseling, and lots of heartache to patch up this DUMB, DUMB, DUMB, (did I say DUMB?) one sentence her kallah teacher told her... and the hundreds of other things she DID NOT tell her that could have had such a positive impact on her marriage.

My kallah teacher guided me so perfectly (bh): Everything in the bedroom - between husband and wife - goes. (If its not against actual halacha...)

So basically, my friends kallah teacher - by virtue of being her "halacha teacher"... insinuated that it's halacha to have intimate relations only once a week.

Horrible. Terrible. Sin!

What that has to do with this conversation? Have no idea. Just remember that one of the comments pushed this hot-button of mine.

9:52 PM
Anonymous said...
Turquoiseblue

Excellent posts as long as it isn't against halacha things get decided between husband and wife. Those are the true torah hashkafas not the dribble other people are posting. The same with your other post marriage is give, not receive. Hey half nutcase what rambam are you talking about, the one that says you have to treat your wife better than yourself stop lying none of those seforim agree with shira.

10:55 PM
CornyPorny said...
wow. you have a heated debate going on here! cool

12:23 AM
Elisheva said...
TB. Welcome back. As usual your comments are on the mark and I agree with everything, and you seem to grasp exactly what I was talking about.

I was referring to gossip as you put it, I guess for thrills and to one-up the other also probably. DETAILS are usualy left out, but I guess I still found it a shock cause I was pretty sheltered all my life, but no, I never meant that anyone is giving detailed descriptions, but surley enough to make one curious single girl who is horny wonder...

As you say TB, and as I have come to realize, I think it is an immaturity, but i guess lots of us are still not so mature. I think it is really like the usual sem talk, only now these girls are married and you'd think that the realization has to just hit you that it is time to grow up, but I guess it just hasn't. So maybe it's cause my office has lots of just or recently-married's.

The only other thing is that there is that benifit that since we are all already so exposed today, maybe it isn't the worst thing to get the comparing with other frum girls and not with the goyish magazines.

About the kallah classes, I guess I can't really comment. Obviously we are very messed up cause of all the outside influences, but we have to live with that fact and not deny it exists. And obviously a marriage is a two-way street, but more than that I can't comment. I can only say boy am I glad that it is supposed to be more than once a week!

Also I actually agreed with Shira on one thing! About the brother-in-law thing, she put it down the way I was feeling about it, but couldn't find the words. She said, "An in-law is not a blood relative, therefore it may be improper to be attracted to them, but not weird or incestuous."

Cause like it obviously was weird, but it bothered me how no one was acting like they would about a horrid incestuous thing, and I guess it bothered me that I didn't feel that way either. I guess maybe it is different, though like still not good.

And finally, I really tried to minimize my teen-talk (sorry to all those who wrote me saying they thought it was cute)! But like I think I have this problem for years and since I started this blog, so what like got everyone going this time? But for the record, I totally always got teased about it, and yes, I realize the way I talk and write, and no, I don't mind the teasing, and yes, I do try to avoid it.

OK, Whew. Shalom

12:23 AM
turquoiseblue said...
hmmm... The brother-in-law issue is tricky.

We're humans - so obviously these emotions are (like :) possible. But obviously - if they do start to surface - it's our job to extinguish those feelings. Not to let our mind toy around with such thoughts.

And DEFINITELY not act in any which way upon them.

I mean, just like any other situation where the opposite gender turns you on... (and you're married/engaged etc.) You just got to block out those emotions - and refocus on something else. Actually, you should have an "automatic firewall" in place -where it almost always blocks out such scenarios from developing in the first-place...

And anyway - I can't imagine someone hating their sister so much, to flirt with her husband - or cheat on her chas v'shalom.

But I can just see this scenario: Girl gets married - great looking guy. Has a baby, gains some weight. Tired. Busy. Unmarried sis-in-law sets eyes on hot brother-in-law. Flirts. In a weak moment... who knows...

Well, sadly - I happen to know of a real-life scenario where a naive(?) sis-in-law was dragged into an affair by brother-in-law... originally - "talking to her - so she can help save bad relationship he had with her sister"... via IM's and emails and then in person... later it became "love"... etc... Oh, and sis-n-law (nice kid, looks like the perfect catch from the outside) gets engaged a few months into this... Only g-d knows what kind of marriage she has...

When I found out about this "story" it really shook me up... in so many ways. And it got me thinking how true it is "not to believe in yourself till the day you die"... Be careful. Be careful. Be careful.

12:53 AM
Y.Y. said...
TB
you got a brain you make sense
i think you should become a kallah teacher or maybe a frum marriage counslor

8:36 AM
Devorah said...
You have a real interesting blog here. I am married and in my twenties and I wish I had read some of this stuff before I got married.

About the brother-in-law thing. I have to say that I don’t think it’s as bad as people make it sound here. A brother-in-law is not at all a real relative. You grow up with a relative so the feelings are anything but sexual. But your in-laws are thrown upon you.

My brother-in-law is the nicest, most charming, most good looking guy. All girls and women are crazy about him (although he handles it very well, and I don’t know how.) He is not looking to flirt, he is pretty yeshivish, but a girl would have to be blind not to have a crush on him.

He is my husband’s sister’s husband, so it’s not like even my husband grew up with him. So do I act on my feelings? Of course not. But they surely are there. (oh, I’d die if he ever read this, but he has no internet, lol)

8:51 AM
David said...
The bottom line. You can't put yourself in a situation where something can happen, where a weak moment can develop. I can have a crush on Charlize Theron from today to tomorrow there's no feasible way that anything is going to happen between us..
I think that's where the focus should be..on not being so intimate...

D

10:53 AM
shira22 said...
... how far does one go to avoid contact with the opposite gender? I was recently in New Square. The sidewalks were marked with signs. One side of the street for men and one side for ladies! There comes a point where this extreme segregation first causes more znus than it prevents because people are so sensitized.
David, I do see your point about Charlize Theron, but extreme gender segregation is not the answer.

1:47 PM
Anonymous said...
What could i say... from reading all the posts Shira22 is the most pathetic of all . Always complaining and pointing out what the men do wrong . She sounds like one who makes excuses for her self by focusing on all the things men do wrong, sorry 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Shira worry about your own "chiyuvim", instead of focusing so much on what the husband needs to do. Pheeww, you are so backward i don’t think it would be easy to straighten you.

1:47 PM
David said...
I'm not advocating extremem segregation but common sense. How heimish couples are together...etc...

D

1:48 PM
ClooJew said...
Well well well.

Looks like Elisheva managed to hit yet another nerve ending.

First, whereas women who do not read ladies magazines and therefore have very little information to go on in the way of "how to please your man" may benefit from discreet conversations with close friends, I can't possibly see, lulei demistafina, how a "frum woman's office scene" is the time or the place for such discussion.

Nevermind the breach of privacy within the marriage, which is unfair to the husband, it is certainly not tzniusdik behavior and I highly doubt it will lead to an overall uptick in Shalom Bayis. There are books/classes/individuals to read/attend/talk to. Besides, who says Chayala the bookkeeper knows more about sex than the clueless kallah teacher menitoned above!

I am confident that anyone posting here today would be stunned if they had a frank conversation about sex with a legitimate rav. They would be stunned by what he would say and stunned by how he would say it. I have heard many stories of bachurim coming back from their chassan shmooze, wide-eyed and slack-jawed, saying something like, "I never knew my rebbe could SAY such words!"

Recently there was a discussion on the blogosphere about what was mutar (nearly everything) and what was assur (practically nothing) in the bedroom. People were quoting sefarim left and right--to the point that many of the women felt the whole discussion was so clinical as to be devoid of any sexuality! Precisely.

This teaches three things: 1) the halachic, hashkafic and practical application about sex is out there. 2) Men with bushy beards and dusty fedoras, as well as temimusdikke women with snoods down to their pupiks, know quite a bit more about sex than you may think. And 3) It can be discussed in a way that doesn't get everyone all hot and bothered.

As for the brother-in-law/sister-in-law fiasco, is anyone aware that the Talmud states that women are attracted to their sons-in-law, and for that reason certain halachic fences are built specifically for the in-laws? The BIL/SIL crush is very well-known, very natural, and very dangerous. How spreading stories about this one or that one benefits anybody is beyond me.

Finally, to the moronymous posters (or should I say "posers") out there: Put a name to the comment or shut up.

2:55 PM
Shmuel said...
Why, Devoraleh honey, I never knew you felt that way. You are so sweet..

3:46 PM
Anonymous said...
Cloojew

Why do you feel you need a picture near your name for that matter why are all these sick pictures next to people's names. Also enough with your lelui lelui say what you want most times I agree but just say it.

4:04 PM
ms. shtark said...
u know what i think? there are alot of ppl who really get a kick out of ticking each other off here on this blog. this whole dialogue has really got me rolling with all the ploni amonis!

nehoo, i was just wondering what age these women are? it would totally not be the type if they were like:-) newlywed b.c they are usually 2 shy 2 talk abt it unless it is with their absolutely best friends and then they think they are a.giving us "unknowledgeables an education and b. reassuring us. even then still inappropriate! not that this makes a difference to this thread.
i guess if u make a connexion to your kalla teacher they can give u tips - i really dont know.

but i was just wondering - i think that this whole issue being so open about one's sex life is just very in - sex pervades our everyday life wherever we go. naturally it was bound to somehow sneak into our everyday lives as frum jews b.c it is no longer so taboo. this is a reflection of our times (as is this blog as well) it is best to acknowledge that it is there and then to move on with life.
i also have this little inkling of a feeling that have of these women are very insecure and are just showing off that THEY are more loved and this is a boost to their self esteem to push up their self confidence. what better way to do that than with sex which is the main focus of todays society and everyone's obsession? i mean come on - does the daily shmooze really improve on ones sex life? just a hunch!

5:44 PM
Elisheva said...
CJ, welcome. As usual, your comments (like all your posts on your amazing blog) are so well put. I'm sorry if you didn't see any reason for my post, I guess it was on my mind, it is happening in my life and the truth is that origionally i really thought that maybe it is OK, and that it is a healthy way to pick up what we otherwise would not.

It was not my sole intention to titilate, though I never pretend to be an angel and oh so mature, and yes, I have the same nisayon of going to these topics as any other human being. But still, I did wonder about how right or wrong it was. After all this, I think i am leaning toward that it really has little benifit and it is mostly immature. Ms. Shtark I think is also very right that it is just so in today and it is a way for a girl to show off how much she means to her husband. I mean today so many girls are lacking in self-esteem. Still it is not like totally public discussion, we are a close group, and there are no REAL specifics, so i don't think it is totally horrid, just probably more like, hey, we shouldn't go there.

Also CJ, that is so interesting what you said about a gemara. Where is that? It is amazing how the gemara seems to know what we all deny. Like most of us here, and surely I always, thought this is because of today's goyish influence. I can't believe the gemara says this is a real nisayon and there are things to avoid because of it. In a way I feel better. So anyway, where is this gemara (not that I know how that will help me, lol) and what are those stuff you say the gemara said we should avoid because of it.

Also, after loads of blushing I actually got the guts to somehow (in a VERY roundabout way) bring the topic of are chosson/kallah classes good enough with a Kollel guy whom I very respect. He said the chosson classes are way better than people make it out to be, but that he hears real scary stuff about tonz of girls who didn't hear what they should have from their kallah teachers. He even like hinted that IY"H when the time comes I shouldn't just go to anyone and that there are some teachers I definitely should NOT go to.

So maybe as usual we are on the losing part of the bargain here.

Shalom

6:47 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Elisheva - (hope you wont' mind me being blunt here...) but are you really serious when you say that you ask such private questions from a KOLLEL guy (other than a brother?) Dont'cha think that is a leeettle iffy... questionable... inappropriate... to say the least...

10:09 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Elisheva - by the way I was standing next to some teenage girls in Lakewood today... and they were LIKE, so, LIKE, talking, LIKE... that I just stood there grinning to myself... and wondering if one of them were YOU!

10:15 PM
Elisheva said...
OMG! TB, were you the one with the plaid skirt and brown tights and shortish shaitel?? Just kidding! Though you never can know. It is funny cause I totally sometimes wonder if people I see in the street could be a person I know from the blog.

The Kollel guy is someone who is very close to the family of a close friend of mine and so like I got to know him too. He is very frum and like I heard he is big stuff in the yeshiva, like he talks to people alot. My brother says alot of people talk to him, so it isn't like I am going just to anybody. He is like the total opposite of me and like all of us who are immature. He is very mature about stuff and is very approachable about anything.

My friend started talking to him about a few things last year and I also sometimes bring up hashkafa/personal things that I am wondering about or are bothering me. Even so, I didn't ask anything direct. Just he always has his eye out for me for shidduchim (he says - I hope he really does) so it comes up like would I want this or that or whatever, and the topic came up of open-minded vs. closed-minded and how much is open and how much is closed etc.

So in this way I mentioned that like let's say there would be things, like really personal things I needed to know after I got married, would a guy like he was talking aobut understand. And he said that most bachurim are way more open about personal things than people realize, just it is something never brought up, so like how should anyone think they know these things.

Anyway, so that's how it came up, and I saw my opportunity and brought it up and he ended up saying that a guy will hear things before he gets married in a shmooze and he said though that I shouldn't take for granted, because he heard too many stories that girls don't get good hadracha (which I heard from friends too) so I should be careful when the time comes IY"H.

I couldn't mention the blog because he'd kill me. He is very against the internet, and I can't say I don't see his point. He thinks I am this aidel maidel Bais Yaakov girl and I am embarassed to admit my deeper stuff, though I think he has heard such things before and would totally understand. Still I am in real life a very private person and have a hard time like really opening up.

Whew. That was long. Guess I had stuff to get off my chest.

Shalom

11:09 PM
Anonymous said...
Hi

Sent you some e mails

Y

10:24 AM
David said...
Elisheva,
Oh my. All this in my shtetela Lakewood?

D

11:16 AM
Elisheva said...
David, what are you refering too?

And Anon, I don't know who you are obviously, but I have not recieved any e-mails from anyone I don't know.

Also like a good idea. Even if you want to be anonymous, meybe like at least make up a name so we could like use it for reference.

Shalom

2:55 PM
Semgirl said...
Speaking of email !!! (cough, cough) ..

3:09 PM
AbleVaybel said...
Hi Elisheva!

I enjoyed your post about office chat and the many responses. For myself, I've always been uncomfortable knowing anything really private about my workmate's family life, as it were. How awful, should one chance to meet the fellow, to have the the first image being how he likes to "get his thing done". Oy! That said, it's hard to change the topic sometimes without being cut out of the general chat and banter. Halachically, it's a slam dunk - it doesn't improve your middos, is a bitl zman, etc. But that social negotiation thing is really hard.

As for learning things in the kallah/chosson class, I haven't heard too much good about them, even in my further flung necks of the wood. I've always found the best route to go is a discreet, trustworthy older woman.
Or just a good copy of "Our Bodies Ourselves".

4:51 PM
David said...
Elisheva..
All this sex talk. I don't know..I seem to miss everything..lol
D

5:08 PM
devorah said...
Shmuel, the scary part is that in a way I so want that too happen, but I know my brother-in-law doesn't go online.

Let me tell everybody here that in general kallah classes are terribly inadequate. I know about Monsey and Lakewood personally, and I haven't heard any better about Brooklyn. My husband was a big help. It seems the boys do have the better end of the deal...

6:36 PM
ClooJew said...
It seems the boys do have the better end of the deal...

Yes, indeed, lulei demistafina, it does. I believe that the root of the problem is that the aidel BY student becomes the inflexible BY teacher and the movement perpetuates itself exponentially.

For men, on the other hand, sefarim hold more sway than people. Including rabe'im. Gedolim aside, if somebody says something, he better be able to back it up.

I've said this several times: In the girls schools, the ones who ask the most questions are the troublemakers. In the boys schools, the ones who ask the most questions are the superstars. That thars the problem.

And the result is, as Elisheva eloquently puts it, "It is amazing how the gemara seems to know what we all deny."

"We all" being more women than men.

6:49 PM
tuesdaywishes said...
I had a pretty good Kallah teacher and her husband taught a chassan's class at the same time. My teacher also ran out of time to finish her curriculum, so she said we should each call her, after our weddings, and she'd fill us in on the childbirth and nursing stuff she hadn't covered. When i called her, she actually gave me more of a "checkup" to make sure that we were doing okay, getting used to each other and to being intimate. I don't know how many teachers do that, but probably more should.

10:31 PM
Elster said...
Cloo:

You certainlky put on a lot of weight for your new film, Syriana. Have you managed to get it off yet?

As for this thread. I really don't know what to add. I went to a chosson class that was simply clinical - what was ok what was halachically questionable. There was no advice, no suggestions, etc. Same for my wife, who went to a class given by her local orthodox rebbitzen.

In the end, the problem becomes worse when you have a girl/guy with no knowledge of what to expect or what to do. THEn you really need a good teacher.

1:11 PM
ClooJew said...
Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. Did you see me on Letterman Monday night? I looked fabulous!

1:35 PM
David said...
My Chosson teacher didn't tell me a thing about sex. Simply Halacha.
Is that strange? My parents didn't either educate me much..well except for the videos I once found in their closet..but that's a different story for a different day..lol
D

2:25 PM
nobody28 said...
I wasn't told anything either - but my parents were never very strict about the books I read. I was reading pretty "dirty" stuff at age 13 - I guess that's where I was educated.

2:37 PM
Elisheva said...
Nobody28, it's very interesting you say that, becase though I never would find such books in my house, I have a cousin who's mother was much more chilled and like we read stuff I can only say are almost pornographic. I think I totally picked up loads of stuff aidel Bais Yakov girls like me should never know.

I only wonder if this will help or hurt me when I am IY"H married. Also I once told this to a freind thinking that in not such strict frum circles this was normal and even wondering why they let us girls read these books, and she sounded shocked that people do. But I see you have had a similar experience so I guess it does happen.

I still wonder why these parents don't have a problem with their girls reading these books. Or is it really OK? In this one aspect I think my more "frummer" parents may be right to not allow us.

Shalom

2:50 PM
nobody28 said...
My sister in law always asked my parents how they let me read those books - but they let me read it anyway. It is a little weird.

Will it help or harm you? I don't think it really harmed me. Maybe just expecting things to be more "fairytale" like - but on a whole, I think I'm OK.

2:58 PM
Curious Jew said...
Not to be too blunt, but a chosson/kallah teacher should be giving the halachic basics of oral sex.

As if the kids getting married weren't already thinking about it...

9:44 PM
Anonymous said...
Curious jew said

The halachic basics are it is not permitted no if and or buts. How long does that take?

10:57 PM
Josh said...
Elisheva,

As far as these books go, this could be a whole new post unto itself. Obviously, it depends on what kind of books we are talking about. But different segments of the orthodox community will take different approaches to allowing or forbidding outside influences. I think as long as a family is consistent, the kids can be safe. If parents teach the kid that all is assur, than a kid exploring things out there can be a dangerous chink in their armor. And a more permissive environment can only work when the rights/wrongs and limits are openly addressed.

I can't say which is better. But in a world where everyone is forced to respond to outside influences, we have to be open and honest about the ordeals and reality we face.

11:11 PM
Elisheva said...
Josh, you are right. This should totally be it's own post. I should have thought to do that.

As far as your point, I understand and agree their are different degrees, but I am referring to books I wonder why it is in anyone's "allowed" category. I don't want to get into specifics here (though the last few comments before yours are like titilating enough), but I mean stuff which... oh how should I put it... you know, like, novels that straight out have romance or love or lust and how it is acted upon, not just the general idea.

These are considered regular goyish novels by some people, like no big deal, and I can't imagine why. But maybe it's my upbringing still blinding me.

Shalom

11:55 PM
Anonymous said...
Elisheve

wrong word it should be holding me not blinding me.

1:16 PM
Elisheva said...
Actually holding connotes that I know something is okay but am like being held back. Blinding means I can't even see if something is okay or not because something is stopping me from seeing that.

So if reading such books would be okay, I can't see why, so I am blinded. It's not like I think it's okay but am holding myself back. Whatever.

2:49 PM
Anonymous said...
Understood thank you

4:15 PM
Me said...
When I was at a religious all girls' school, there was one frum girl in my class who read "those" types of books - Mills and Boon etc - constantly. I couldn't understand it. Her family were really strict, yet that is all she read (without their knowledge). In contrast, my family were fairly liberal in comparison - ie, I was allowed to read whatever I wanted to, secular etc - but I wouldn't dream of touching the books she did.
I think it's a product of a restricted upbringing - if you are forbidden totally from doing something, you have more desire to do it. Whereas if it is allowed with guidelines, there's no need to "rebel" and do something you know isn't right.

11:08 PM
nobody28 said...
I was reading Sydney Sheldon novels at age 13 - with my parents knowledge. We are considered pretty frum - yeshivish, black hat, whatever you want to call it. I wasn't rebeling and doing it - I was allowed and still wanted to do it.

8:01 AM
ClooJew said...
"I think it's a product of a restricted upbringing "--Me

I disagree. The fact is, lulei demistafina, that kids with a more liberal upbringing end up engaging in more non-halchic behavior, ON AVERAGE, than the kids who grow up sheltered. The fact that a minority of kids from the chasidish/yeshivish world "explodes" into bad behavior is no reason to encourage the bad behavior to start with.

I wonder: If we tell kids that they may not under any circumstances read Shakespeare, will they all suddenly put down their gameboys, shut off their i-pods, and run to the library to find a copy of Macbeth?

There is a world of difference between permitting children to read the classics, or even thrillers (Michael Crichton, Stephen King) or whodunits (Robert Parker, Faye Kellerman), and allowing kids to read crap like Sidney Sheldon and Judy Blume, whose books have no literary value and only serve to titillate.

11:17 AM
Curious Jew said...
"The halachic basics are it is not permitted no if and or buts."--anonymous

Based on your ignorance of even rudimentary halachah in this instance, I can only assume you are a girl with a BY education, who never bothered to ask a question.

11:20 AM
Semgirl said...
Curious :

Darchecha Darchei Noam...

The halacha is clear. Devorim b'Nahash Nishmoyim.. Speak pleasantly, and respectfully. Especially to women. No ifs and buts.

I can only assume you are an obnoxious creepy bochur, who doesnt believe in Bain Odom L'chaveiro or how to behave around women..

2:19 PM
Curious Jew said...
Ouch!

I apologize. Your mussar is deserved and accepted.

My point is that the Anon above is 100% wrong and so convinced that he/she is right that he/she clearly never asked a shaila or even saw the relevant Gemaras or Shulchan Aruch.

But it was wrong to phrase it that way.

2:54 PM
RuchniGashmi said...
Sem Girl,
I have been reading the posts on this blog and the responses and would like to know what your readers would think about my latest post.http://ruchnigashmi.blogspot.com/2005/11/newly-marrieds.html

6:14 PM
David said...
Sem..
Your discussions are like the energizer bunny. They keep going and going and going....lol
However one topic leads to another..and all so important..

"me"..I think the "restriction culture" that we set up is vital to creating Gedolim...and leaders. We have to protect our kids at least until their old enough to make their own choices.

D

10:24 PM
Anonymous said...
Curious Jew

So can you post those relevant sources gemorahs etc that prove you are right?

10:34 PM
Halfnutcase said...
personaly i feel that someone who has never seen or known a questionable situation and had the oppertunity to test their emuna and devotion to hashem in such a manner, can and will never ever reach the status of a gadol. the gedolei hador, are not like somepeople think those who are removed from the problems of the age, but those who are intimately familiar with many such problems, and know how to advise people out of such issues.

it has been taught in our tradition not to judge someone untill you've stood in their shoes, and this is percisely what the gedolim at times have to do, and what makes them gedolim is that they can find a relevancy with which to understand a problem in their own life, and by preventing people from having the opertunity to sactify hashems name, you actualy stop them from having such rellevencies (not saying that they've done the kinds of things wrong others had but, that they do have to have some kind of peralell that they can compare it too)

just my two cents.

(btw about the issue of oral... i don't really know anything about how it's practiced but i do know that it's a little complicated but comes out to that if it's what the girl wants, the boy can do for her what ever, if it's what the boy wants and she's willing to go along with it there are more restrictions but not total restrictions. to find the details you'll probably have to look in the even ha'ezer which admitedly i only study those sections relevant to unmarried people at this point so i'm not totaly sure. but this is what it seems to be from what i do know. again just some worthless cents)

10:41 AM
Curious Jew said...
HNC,

Stop berating yourself!

You are one of the few ppl here who knows what he's talking about!

You write: "the gedolei hador, are not like some people think those who are removed from the problems of the age, but those who are intimately familiar with many such problems, and know how to advise people out of such issues."

YESSSS!

12:37 PM
David said...
There are different kinds of gedolim. I'm referring to the kedoshim..like the previous Belzer Rebbe and other like him that would never become what they became without being shletered. I had a roommate in Yeshiva..that grew up really sheltered and was so incredible in his Shemiras Einayim and holiness...
D

1:19 PM
Anonymous said...
Curious jew

I am still waiting for your sources or is the problem that you can't reference them. You stated a halacha can you prove it?

1:58 PM
A Lakewwod Yeed said...
Re Oral:

I personally asked a dayan in Monsey, and several Rabbonim in Lakewood, and they told me that if it benefits your Shalom Bayis, it is definitely Mutar.

Important provisal :

a) It is not at a time you are specifically trying to conceive, because of the Gam' in Nedarim, and Siman 240 in Aruch chaim, about effect this has on the child.

b) She wants it, your Cavonna is to please her, and not satisfy your own Taivos.

HOWEVER, ask your own Rov. Each situation is different..

4:07 PM
FrumGirl said...
My personal opinion is... it is disrespectful to your spouse to discuss such intimate details of your life in such a blase way. I feel that anyone who has this need to advertise must be going through some issues. If you wouldn't want your spouse to discuss such stuff with thier coworkers, then don't discuss it with yours. Can't it just be shared between you and yours? Why the need for attention? What can you possibly learn from hearing about such stuff from others? Life is a learning experience... to grow from. Don't rely on other peoples accounts in order to learn. I find it ironic that I seem more prudish comeing from a more modern stance, than some of you... what does this teach us?

10:00 AM
Anonymous said...
Elisheva about the books I could tell you it does more harm then helps. My wife read a lot of these books and it brings the girl to fantasize that life is going to be perfect and same would be for the sex life. Reality generally is not like in the books woman enjoy reading.... (obviously same goes for men looking at pornographic materials) but the book definitely affect woman in a bad way. When you get married you will see how these beautiful fantasies are a far cry from real life.

12:21 PM
nobody28 said...
frum - I don't think it "teaches" us anything. I am just as prudeish as you - and I'm not modern.

12:22 PM
Elisheva said...
I am totally not going to comment on the whole oral thing. Puhleeze!

About the books, I agree with CJ and I know from personal experience that it is much worse among those families that totally allow the kids to read all this stuff, and I mean the titillating stuff, not serious novels.

True there are rebels byt eh more strict families too, but in general, like my own personal life, though i have the nisayon to read them when I can, and I admit I do at times, it ends up much more limited and I am not going to out and out rebel just to read these books. It's like a nisayon when i can, but I'm not going off just to do it.

And Nobody, for a married lady in lakewood, you sound too normal. Most of the ones i know are like either the shallow babies who you can't believe are married, like comapring and trying to out-dress and out-do each other, or like these real frum ladies sacrificng all day for their kollel husbands with zero life left. I'd lve to have my husband learn, but does that have to mean I ahve no life or I am a clone trying to be just like everyone else?

Shalom

3:37 PM
Anonymous said...
Hi elisheva of course you should not comment on oral... after all you have never experienced it

3:52 PM
Chaim said...
Let me tell you about ladies yakking about these things to each other even in private. My wife is from a real yeshivish home and is completely frum as far as I ever knew. She dressed always tzniusdik and was what I always thought was the perfect normal frum girl.

Now we live in a complex and she is getting to know the other ladies, all frum and everything like her, and i was happy first. Look, she is friendly and it's nice to get to know all the neighbors.

So one night I come home from yeshiva and she is putting around the kitchen without a skirt! Just in her tights! And she is like nonchalant as if everything is regular. I say hello, and stop short and blurt out, what's this?

She giggles and says, Oh, Shani says it drives her husband nuts when she does this. Listen I am a man and I won't say I didn't like it, but it was something that was not at all needed or called for and what wasn't in our home before, but I let it go.

From there it's all downhill. Chavi rubs her husband "here", Dina wears sheer bras, you get my drift. The worst thing is that two things have happened now. Besides what I feel is a lower level of kedusha in our home, now when I am with my wife and she does these things I can't help picture the ladies she tells me told her about this specific thing. And even though we had no problems until now, obviously now i find myself more and more trying not to think about other ladies, who I admit are very pretty once you look at them in this way.

Also when I see these ladies, you can imagine what I'm thinking. Dina comes over to borrow some sugar, and I'm wondering which one of her bras she is wearing that I heard so much about.

I thought we had a major problem on our hands, but the worst thing is when I told my Rov, he tells me this is spreading like crazy among young frum couples. It has become "Cool" to show off in this way! Ladies you have no idea how bad it is for the husbands. If it is because you lack something from us, bring it up, don't do it this way.

6:35 PM
Anonymous said...
Chaim and then you woke up... :)

6:50 PM
chana said...
Its lose-lose, when we don't do anything, everyone is screaming thats why there are so many guys on Craigs list. When we do, there are still complaints.

8:44 PM
shira22 said...
Chiam, I couldn't have said it better myself!!!Jewish women don't have to descend to the level of shiksas to make their husbands want them. Your wife doesn't realize how lucky she is!!! I admire and respect you.
These young kallahs are only cheapening themselves in their own eyes and in the eyes of their husbands. One doesn't combat the shmutz of the outside world by offering the husband more of the same in his own home!

8:57 PM
shira22 said...
It's not the wife's fault that the husband is on craigs list. It's the fault of an overly gender- segregated society. The same guys who can't say good shabbos to their neighbors wife and try to avoid women in general are the most likely candidates for craigs list. Besides, the husband is supposedly an adult and responsible for his own behavior. The wife has no control over her husbands tyvahs.

9:03 PM
shira22 said...
Nothing worse then being a low-down Whore in your own home. Its totally depraved. At least the Hookers in Time Square aren't pulling Snoods down over their foreheads and looking their nose down at anyone who isn't as "frum" as them. Makes me Sick..

9:28 PM
Anonymous said...
Chana

I agree with you. Why a women in her own home is refered by shira22 as a whore is beyond me. Eating is also a tayva maybe no-one should eat ice cream. What is wrong with walking around in your own home a certain way. Personally if my wife did that for me I wouldn't mind. The only thing that bothers me are women having open discussions and trading stories if this really happens. Pleasing ones spouse is a mitzva. My wife wasn't taught in kallah class to do anything for her husband. For all those people who say well just tell her what you want it is not the same. People respect teachers sometimes more than spouses.

11:03 PM
shira22 said...
anon, what happened to tznius? One should be covered even when one is in a room within a room. Also a person(man or woman)should never cheapen themselves in their own eyes. Tznius isn't only in public.
On a more practical level, something left to the imagination is much more attractive than letting it all hang out.
PS- sorry about the crude language of my last post. I hadn't signed out and a like minded friend took it upon herself to post for me. I agree with the thought, but not the way it's expressed.

12:46 AM
chaim said...
Hey, I'm agreeing with Shira on something! Don't usually.

Chana and anon, no one said the wife shouldn't do everything to please her husband. I'm talking about doing things totally not needed so she can also show off to her friends. What a couple needs is fine, and Shira that is even being not tzniusdik. When it's for marriage it is OK. I'm talking things we didn't need but I think were just brought in for kicks to "keep up with the Esty's"

And anyone who doesn't think this is happening is either lucky or is in his own little dream world.

2:03 AM
nobody28 said...
Elisheva - Lakewood does have some normal people. But I guess they are hard to come by.

My husband learned for the first 4 years we were married. It was his decision to stop. He now learns daf yomi and a night seder and some other shiurim over the weekend. You can definitely "have a life" while your husband is learning. Plenty of people do.

And even thought I am "normal" the outdoing and outdressing makes me CRAZY.

shira22 - just curious - are you married?

7:24 AM
Anonymous said...
Chaim Nobody28 shira22

I am anon you anwsered. First nobody22 most people in my opinion are normal they just don't post. shira22, chaim, the lady wasn't walking around naked she had tights on fully covered up she was just doind a muter thing to please her husband nothing wrong with that. Times change and what is needed in this dor is different from previous generations. As long as halacha is kept what's the problem. Chaim, discussing your personal details with friends is an entirely different, that I agree with you. shira22 I never see a positive word from you, why? I also ask the question are you married? It doesn't seem you are in the regular kollel/working class that most people who post are in.

nobody28 just curious does your husband know you post?

8:11 AM
nobody28 said...
Anon - yes - he knows. And there are normal people in Lakewood, but there is ALOT of what Elisheva said. This obsession with "toys". Bigger house, nicer cars, tons of clothes - even for little kids. I just don't get it. Besides for the waste of money - hoe do these people afford it? I just don't get it. Do I sound jealous? I guess I am a little bit, I just can't see myself going into sebt for this stuff. That's why I call them "not normal".

8:19 AM
Anonymous said...
nobody28

I am the anon who posed you the question. I also learned in lakewood and for me it wasn't an option to settle there for the reasons you mentioned. I am quite happy being in Flatbush. My wife doesn't know I post and I don't think she would approve that's why I asked. If I may ask did your kallah teacher give you specifics or just general halachos and haskafa?

8:58 AM
nobody28 said...
Anon - no specifics. Just the first night - what would happen, how to make it a little easier. (sorry if TMI everyone) General halacha.

And Flatbush is just as bad with that stuff. And a lot worse with a lot of other stuff. I wouldn't want to live there.

9:29 AM
Anonymous said...
Shira stop shadowing your depression, upon all the readers in this blog.

9:57 AM
Anonymous said...
nobody28

Correct in what you say about flatbush but certain areas you can seclude yourself which I do so I don't see it as much. Lakewood is more like a bungalow colony atmosphere.

10:10 AM
nobody28 said...
Anon - I guess it is a little bungalow colony like, but its great way for my kids to grow up, since they always have friends to play with.

I don't have the problem mentioned above - where we discuss innapropriate things. I've never encountered that.

10:25 AM
turquoiseblue said...
Shira... from your postings, it's obvious that there's a generation gap here... Things change. People change. Needs change.

And for someone that admitted experimenting before marriage... I cannot understand why you keep on berating those that discuss stuff about enhancing a marriage...

Though Chaim, I can see how the situation you posted about can be frustrating and cause problems...
Why don't you just tell your wife what's happening... that at least she shouldn't name names... and that YOU want to tell her what YOU like... etc.

TB

11:05 AM
Anonymous said...
nobody28

I agree it kills me that I live in a million dollar home and my kids don't have anyone to play with. All my extended family lives in Lakewood and they love it. I have never discussed private issues and details things with friends and certainly my wife hasn't so sometimes I wonder if it is all an urban myth.
On a side note maybe its about time I make a screen name.

11:25 AM
nobody28 said...
Anon -

How do you know your wife hasn't discussed private things?

11:27 AM
shira22 said...
To everybody who asked, yes I am very happily married, BH. To the person who asked if I am a regular kollel/working class person-my husband is an engineer and I am an executive. We both work very hard for whatever we have. We are "self made", with Hashem's help of course.
TB, there is no contradiction between experimenting before marriage and wanting to keep the kedusha and tznius in marriage. Perhaps I am a bit old fashioned, but I feel that once a person makes the marriage commitment, one should treat their marriage with respect. Marriage is not the same as a casual relationship.
Lastly, anon, I am not at all depressed. I feel that BH, I have been blessed with a wonderful life and I am quite content. You should be as happy as I am.

11:34 AM
nobody28 said...
Shira - why is being sexy for your husband descending to a lower level? My husband went for a "chosson shmooze" before we got married to his mashgiach - a very chashuv man. My husband said he couldn't beleive what he was telling him about "things". There is nothing wrong with being sexy for your husband.

11:38 AM
shira22 said...
anon, if you are wealthy enough to live in a fancy home, you can afford activities for your children. This way they can meet other children. You don't have to live in Lakewwood for your kids to have friends. Also you make your home a gathering place for the neighborhood kids. There's always a house where all the kids want to play. This way your kids have friends and you can keep an eye on them. I speak from personal experience.

11:41 AM
shira22 said...
nobody, there's a fine line between attractive and unwholsome. Nowadays, people are very confused about it.
After several years of marriage and a few kids,most wives do not look like models. I, for one, love the fact that my husband finds me beautiful in an elegant suit or an old granny nightgown because I'm the woman he loves. I am the one with the tyvah for nice clothes.

11:46 AM
nobody28 said...
Shira - That is you. There is no reason to put down a woman, or a couple who gets turned on by lingerie and candles. There is nothing wrong with that.

11:51 AM
Anonymous said...
nobody22

I do know my wife doesn't discuss things more than that I won't say. My wife to put it mildly is very sheltered is not a yak to her friends and this stuff has no interest to her. I wish it did.

Shira22
living in a million dollar house means nothing every house in NY costs just about that. I find if there aren't kids on the block that is a problem. 5,6,7,8 year olds need friends on the block. It isn't practical inviting over that age group parents can't bring them and most blocks do have kids. Mine doesn't and in most cases the real fancy blocks are not for me. I have my shul were I daven and at this point I am not uprooting to move. You have also in the past critcized the men for only doing things for their own pleasure. You seem to have an agenda. The last few posts of yours have actually been discussion not critcizim stick to that.

12:32 PM
nobody28 said...
anon - it's 28 - not 22 ;)

About your wife - is that why you asked the question about the kallah teacher? You think they should have taught her more?

12:36 PM
Anonymous said...
nobody28

Correct they didn't teach anything. My wife came into marriage with zero knowledge and she used a mainstream kallah teacher.

12:46 PM
nobody28 said...
Well - my knowledge did not come from my kallah teacher. That's for sure.

12:47 PM
shira22 said...
anon, I'm not criticizing. Just trying to offer solutions. There are blocks in Lakewood with no children too.Also, I'm well aware of what houses cost.

12:49 PM
nobody28 said...
shira - what problem are you offering a solution to? It seems you think it's a problem for a wife to dress up and try to turn on her husband. I do not think that is a problem.

12:52 PM
nobody28 said...
Sorry - I just realized you were talking to anon - not me.

12:58 PM
Anonymous said...
shira22

I was referring to your prior posts that a man has a chiev to his wife and not viceversa and in that discussion you came off very negative.

1:11 PM
Anonymous said...
nobody28

Do you think the typical bais yakov girl has that knowledge?

1:18 PM
nobody28 said...
Anon - probably not. I guess I was/am a little atypical.

But whatever I did not know, my husband helped educate me. And I'm not really sure where he got it from.

1:21 PM
shira22 said...
anon-please give yourself a number(ie anon 1 )this is getting confusing.
I was refering strictly to the kesuba. Of course people have to adjust to each other. It just bothers me that everyone is talking about the lady(who does not have a chiev d orisa) turning on the man. People aren't talking about the other side-the man(who does have a chiev d orisa)pleasing the lady. It's totally male oriented-what the lady wears, what the lady does, all these young silly child-kallahs trying to outdo each other. A person who is chiev in a certain mitzvah always gets greater zchus than one who isn't.

2:46 PM
Elisheva said...
OMG! Like one morning at work and I am totally behind everything here. Ouch! Sorry about the "like". I was going to delete it, but decided to apologize instead for the benefit of those who e-mailed me when i tried to stop that it was so "me" so I should just write the way I do.

About everything else. Well Flatbush I don't think is much better than lakewood in the showing off problem. Maybe like from the few very good things I picked up in Israel is that some places there are very good in this and we should learn from them.

The colony feel about Lakewood is like a double-edged sword. Like it is so nice on the one hand, friends, lending etc. On the other hand there is so much comparing, yenting etc. On a personal level, let me tell you that dating when you live in a complex here is a MAJOR problem! I sometimes have to go out from a relative's home on the other side of the lake because otherwise the entire complex would be talking about it, if it's a time when everyone is out.

It is scary because everyone seems to be saying that Kallah classes teach nothing about real life. I guess i am not too sheltered, but I have loads of friends who are and like i am so worried like when they get married they will be so clueless. I mean, isn't there a time a girl has to know stuff? Even if they just don't need it, we see here all the husbands who do and complaining that their wives know nothing. That is crazy. I so hope my husband (IY"H) gets one of these mashgiachs everyone mentions that tell them all these things that blow them away.

Not that I have a major opinion on this yet, but I would think nobody28 is right about it being okay to dress provocatively for a husband. Cause like all through school they tell us we shouldn't show off, too much make-up, hair etc. everything is "leave it for your husbands". So if not them, then what are we always being taught?

Also, a weird question. I always considered my family pretty frum, but it never dawned on me that being in tights is a problem just among us sisters or alone. So why should it be wrong for a husband in the first place? I hope I don't sound stupid. I guess I don't really know how frum couples are supposed to be, just i never thought it was so restrictive. I mean tights are solid! Like almost dressed. He didn't mention nude pantyhose or anything. That I understand would be different.

And last, all the anonymous posts: There is an option for "Other" where you can choose any name. It is way better and easier to follow than anonymous. BTW, does anyone know if you can to enable "Other" without enabling "anonymous"

Whew. Shalom

3:15 PM
fltbshyid said...
shira22

Okay I named myself. Elisheva good comment all true what you said.

3:23 PM
Halfnutcase said...
my thoughts about the women dressing in tights to show off for their husbands is that while ok, i personaly wouldn't,(or rather let anyone else) because like shulchan aruch says that you need modesty even when in the dark in your own home as you are standing before the king of kings, hakodesh baruch hu. but i'm not married yet and so am not sure.

4:12 PM
shira22 said...
We dress for ourselves, cause we have to live in our bodies for 120 years.
A sister is very different than a husband. A sister won't notice you the way a husband does and there's no inyun of tznius with a sister, mom or other ladies. And, still, we don't deliberately try to show off for them.
As I previously mentioned, my husband is not into clothes. I have to shop for him. He doesn't really care what I wear. He doesn't really care what he wears. Thus, since I love being well dressed, I dress for me. My husband is a wonderful guy, I just wish he would care a little bit more about clothes so that I don't have to prepare his clothes for him and shop for him. When we got married I really had to educate myself about men's clothing. My husband will wear the same suit for years and not notice. Pajamas? unmentionables? forget it! I shop for everything.

5:32 PM
shira22 said...
fltbshyid, thanks for naming yourself. Other anons, have rachmones on everyone and pick names!lol

5:35 PM
Halfnutcase said...
my point is there is an inyan of tznius even when you are alone and in the dark, it doesn't matter who is present, but that's just my view. (i'm still carefull even when i'm alone or just with boys, but i'm not sure that isn't a hold over from having mostly girls for friends as a kid... don't ask) also my best friend and my mashpia are REALLY big on tznius so that may just be their influence

6:17 PM
Semgirl said...
Wow, this has been the busiest day since day since you started the blog.. There was a long dryspell before this post, but you more then made up for it today..

Keep up the good work.. Now if I can only get unhooked from your blog long enough to write a new post and answer email..

6:19 PM
Flatbushyid said...
halfnutcase

I know you constantly write a disclaimer that you are not married but I don't think you realize how much an unmarried person can't really comment on these issues. I thought I was knowledgeable before marriage boy was I in for a lesson or two.

6:54 PM
Me said...
Someone should write a book about all this stuff so all the young marrieds (or soon to be marrieds) in Lakewood, Flatbush, Stamford Hill, wherever else etc don't have to worry about their kallah/chosson teachers not teaching them enough.

My 2 cents:

1)By all means, dress (or undress) for your husband. Just a warning though: if you walk around the house all the time in your underwear then he'll eventually get used to it and it won't be so exciting.

2) Walking around in just stockings/ tights is a little weird. Not because it's sexy, or whorish etc, but because it just looks weird.

3) Talking with your friends (or anyone) about what goes on between you and your husband is WRONG on so many levels. Religiously, morally and mentally. Because of the reasons mentioned by Chaim, where images of other people's spouses are conjured up (and you should only be thinking of your own in that way). Because it is definitely the epitome of untznius (if that is a word). Because it is loshon hora (which you know doesn't have to be bad talk about someone). And because it's just not proper, nor polite, and you will benefit absolutely nothing from it. If there's stuff you want to know about methods, techniques etc borrow "The Joy of Sex" or Kama Sutra or some other kind of book or speak to a therapist. Not a friend.

6:59 PM
shira22 said...
me.....kama sutra is derived form hindu practices and requires the dexterity of a gymnast. Definitely not for frum couples.
Also, just as a really good cup of coffee doesn't need the enhancement of sugar,a really good marriage doesn't need the enhancement of exotic practices.

7:09 PM
Elisheva said...
SemGirl, what else can I do for you?

Lots of good comments everyone. I think there is so much to learn (among all the garbage to dispose, lol). A sister is definitley different than a husband, but, pardon my ignorance, do we have to always be tznius in front of our husbands? I guess I thought that was extreme chassidish, but I guess as FBYd says, we have alot to learn, though I never pictured always having to check that my skirt isn't riding up or my buttons even in front of my husband.

And while walking around in tights is weird cause it's like not all dressed, when we're changing or just relaxing alone in our own room and reading, is that actually not tznius? I thought it's okay cause we're all covered.

Shalom

7:14 PM
shira22 said...
Tznius is a very appealing quality in a lady. Also, when we display ourselves too much we loose our mystique. Most men like something left to the imagination.
And yes, even when my husband and I are home alone, I'm careful that my knees don't show when I sit, that my blouse is properly buttoned. I try not to change my clothes in front of my husband. I wasn't so careful about that in front of my mother or sisters.

7:22 PM
chaim said...
TB you are one of the smaretest and most with-it women I ever read online.

Of course I tried speaking to my wife, but as you know real life isn't so simple. She is very sensitive and also doesn't like discussing these things unless she is aroused, and then we really can't have an intelligent discussion. It's a problem. I am working on it. I just meant to point out for everyone else how immature this is and how it can backfire. You think you are making your husband aroused, meanwhile we are, but also for a different lady.

Al pi halacha there is nothing wrong with how a wife is dressed if it when she is with her husband just like it is okay for all times she needs like a shower, getting dressed etc. This is also something people need. I only mean when it isn't needed and even if it is, it should be done right.

And truly my wife didn't know didly squat about anything when we got married. Maybe that's why she shmoozes so much with her freinds about it all.

7:25 PM
Flatbushyid said...
Elisheva

Nothing wrong if something happens to your skirt in front of your husband. What I do think is important to say is, since women are supposed to be carefull, they should still practice tznius in front of their husbands unless there is a purpose for what they are doing i.e the post of the lady walking in tights for when her husband came home. Getting dressed same thing you get dressed the same way as if you would with no-one watching in a tznius way, which I disagree with shira22 if you can do something in front of your sister you can surely do it in front of your husband.

7:48 PM
Elisheva said...
Wow, but can anyone out there besides Shira tell me if this is the norm? Obviously Shira is different on everything. Like we are pretty yeshivish and my mother is even more extreme, but I don't think she is as careful the way she sits even if my father is there than if anyone else is ever there in which case she is like ultra careful.

7:51 PM
turquoiseblue said...
N28 -- thank you for dittoing that!

>>>>Shira - That is you. There is no reason to put down a woman, or a couple who gets turned on by lingerie and candles. There is nothing wrong with that. <<<<<

8:44 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Elisheva... on all but disallowed days - I actually TRY to be VERY careful.... to sit "provocatively" in front of my husband... So there.

C'mon - if it's okay in front of sisters - tnius-wise - then it is DEFINITELY okay husband-wise... Actually, scratch that. EVEN what's not okay sister-wise - is A-OK husband-wise - if the occasion calls for it!

Shira - I plan on getting "schar" IYH for every little flirt, every wink of my eye, and skirt riding up in front of my husband... that turns him on!

And while of course we are glad that our husbands love us even on days we look like ----, (and admittedly btw kids, work etc there are too many of such days) but that sure does not mean we should AIM to look like that and trumpet that as an ideal... on the contrary... whenever we have the mindset and energy we should actively try to be at our best!

Now - of course, I'd love for my husband to be at HIS best all the time - but ME - from my part - love him no matter what. You see - I am not going to talk about what men should be doing... I can talk more sensibly about what I feel (based on my life experience and observations and the first-hand perspective I have on that) what part we women can play to enhance a wholesome marriage-relationship...

Just my 2(?!)cents,
TB

9:15 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Chaim, seems you're a real mentch. Understanding your wife's sensitivities and point of view and all... Am sure it reflects in your relationship!

9:29 PM
Me said...
Shira - a good cup of coffee may not NEED sugar, but sometimes I feel like it anyway. So I see no point in denying myself...

9:34 PM
shmuel said...
There is a halachik issue with getting dressed/undressed in front of your husband when a woman is a nidah. At all other times, their are no restrictions as to how you have to dress in the privacy of your own home.
I know a very well respected rov, who recommends to women that they cook dinner wearing an apron, and nothing else, as a way to spice things up.
Before I got married, I went to 6 different chosson shmuesen, and only one of them had a negative attitude towards sexuality. When the time comes, you will be directed to an appropriate teacher, and there are several in Lakewood, and you will be shocked by what they tell you.

10:17 PM
Josh said...
Um Elisheva, I'm not sure your blog is safe for singles any more. Let me know when it's safe to come back.

BTW, it's interesting that almost none of the commentators (exc. HNC, SG, CJ, and the other usuals) have their own blogs - at least linked to their profiles.

10:38 PM
David said...
Isn't it incredible how sex obsessed we are?

11:17 PM
Elisheva said...
TB and N28 & Shmuel, thanx for the clarifications. BTW, Shmuel were you talking to me? Like did you mean there are good teachers for girls in Lakewood? That is something I havn't been hearing.

Which brings me to Josh, if you will read this at all. I really so respect Josh for not being like all others. I noticed other posts where he probably felt was too much a vaiberish post and not for a guy, he stayed out and didn't comment like the other guys giving mussar while they themselves for some reason are visiting the post all the time.

I hope you understand Josh, maybe I am so wrong, but seeing all the stuff here and hearing stories and from friends etc. how little frum girls know when we get msrried I guess makes me so want to do this right (IY"H when the time comes).

Maybe others just coast throguh, but I am a very intense person in a way, and not easily satisfied and am too curious and inquisitive to just write things off. I understand (or maybe I don't) that for a guy maybe this talk is not good. I won't deny it gets me thinking too maybe of the wrong things, but I guess for now this nisayon is too great for me and I just feel I want to get certain things right.

I totally understand that anything on a blog has to be taken with like a few grains of salt (or sugar for Shira, lol), but still some of the stuff just makes sense, besides some of the people commenting here sound more normal than lots of people you meet in real life. Could also be you meet these same people but they'd never tell you this stuff in real life. I guess I am like a little like that too.

I do hope to post something soon anyway, like if I ever get to it, and hopefully it will be a more all-inclusive post.

Shalom

Oh, and TB, I so wish you would have taught in my high-school. Now that you live in Lakewood, you really should apply. The girls can only gain from the straight way you put stuff.

11:34 PM
Semgirl said...
Elisheva, if this gets anymore intense, you will need to set up a password-protected ladies only site, lol..

I am looking forward to your next post..

Oh, and TB submit your resume to Bais Keila, PLEASE !!!!

12:49 AM
Elisheva said...
SemGirl, I think you're long overdue on one of your amazing posts yourself!

1:16 AM
turquoiseblue said...
You know, I guess I'm offering what I wished I'd have for myself, 10 or so years ago... and I bet you'll do this for others in another 10 years from now...

But you know what, I'm learning alot from you guys too!

See you around...
TB

1:43 AM
ms. shtark said...
wowee, this went from a little discussion about office talk to an actual x rated one. i mean, oral??!!! like hello. that belonged on bas torahs thingie, not with innocent (or maybe not so innocent?:-) elisheva. (JK)
i already said my thoughts on this that it is wrong to discuss these stuff. and chaim's story is the perfect example/ it becomes more of a competition than anything else.
"Who is better in the Jewish bedroom!! That sounds like it came straight out of some movie show."
and even tho i am single, i know that it's just not right for this to be a competition to be friends. It really all stems from one thing - insecurity and the need to show off. I have the biggest suv, the biggest house, the biggest flat screen (in the cellar) and the best Sex!!

9:12 AM
Bracha said...
Hi Everyone,

I've just finished reading through all this and WOW is all I can say. Lots of smart adn no so smart comments here.

Bottom line, I don't think it's really appropiate to discuss with your co workers the intimate details of your sex life since that tends to cause to compare your sex life with theirs. However, that being said, sometimes you can discuss some things with a close friend privately which can certainly help clarify some things which you may have not felt comfortable or not knows how to handle.

I certainly am for better education in the Kallah classes... I know that some teachers can be very technical with halachos and hashkafah and really confuse girls who can think this is similiar to davening and do things in the same manner which can not always be applied in this case.

In a marriage you have to realize that there are 2 human beings with very different needs and desires and each has to try to compromise and give in to the other.

I really feel that lingerie and other things to enhance a relationship DO very much have a place in a strong marriage and there is NOTHING wrong with a little fantasy as well between husband and wife.

Shira, I sometimes think you are holier than everyone else or you feel you acquire holiness by not needing anything or being 100% tznius around your husband and not undressing in front of him etc...

I don't think that helps to establish intimate feelings between husband and wife and if that is being taught by Kallah teachers, then we have reached a very strange level of "Kedusha".

I certainly hope that is not the case, since that will just cause more cases of divorce and unhappiness between young couples.

There is a reason it is called "Love making" (pardon my openess, but it is required in this case), it establishes trust and intimacy between husband and wife and while it is not the ONLY thing which does that, it certainly helps a lot.

Just my 2 cents...

Bracha

10:24 AM
David said...
Every couple develops their own dynamic...and it's really silly to discuss and compare and generalize...but it's still fun.

10:40 AM
Anonymous said...
Things are getting a little to personal.....Somethings should be left behind the bedroom doors.

11:51 AM
Ari said...
Congratulations. I am leaving the 200th comment (AGAIN). That means its time for a new post........

Ari9753@yahoo.com

11:51 AM
Joey said...
Hi Elisheva great blog,
Just curious, do you and semgirl know each other in real life or only online?

1:02 PM
shira22 said...
TB
LOL LOL LOL!!!!!!!
I laughed so hard that I almost fell off my chair! Good thing I didn't cause then my skirt might have hiked up. lol You are so cute!
As an executive, I have to look well even when I feel like----from too little sleep(I know a liquid foundation that covers dark circles real well),nasty persistant cold, 60 hour work week, etc.
BH, I don't have to hike up my skirt to get my husbands attention! Being super demure works with both husbands and boyfriends. Believe me, I know! It drives guys crazy! It's us ultra-proper ones that have all the moves.
Men are strange creatures. When we're too accessible, they loose interest. They want what they can't always have. They want what is left to the imagination.

2:01 PM
Semgirl said...
For a change, I agree with Shira.. Just going by experience with boyfriends ( nothing more then kissing, don't panic ....) and conversations with married ladies. That whole VS seductiion act is great for the first few months of marriage, but it gets boring real fast. You definitely need to tease a bit, and play hard to get, thrill of the hunt with your husband, or he may be tempted to play it with someone else.

2:15 PM
shira22 said...
Thanks for the complement, Bracha.I'm truly flattered. I try for a modicum of kedusha, but I'm only human. One thing I don't worry about is keeping up with Esty.(see Chiams previous post).
Among the ways I try to aquire holiness are by learning Torah, trying to be honest in business(and learning hilchos business and ribbis) and working on my middos,etc. None of us know how well we did until after 120 years.

2:52 PM
Halfnutcase said...
this blog really does need a warning lable, i'm staying out from this too.

3:52 PM
Bracha said...
Shira,

I understand how being demure drives the interest level up a notch, however having some nice lingerie underneath it all sure helps once the husband sees it and grabs a tease look....
I didn't mean that you have to go around the house in the nude...

But you don't have to dress and worry about him seeing a flash of leg either...

Bracha

4:45 PM
Elisheva said...
I'm really sorry for all those who felt this is like way too overheated. It was totally not supposed to be this way, on my blog of all blogs! Maybe like Bracha and Shira are saying the demure ones get the interest, because there are so many blogs openly going for the sexual thrill and I really didn't want to be like that. I really hope my next post will not go there.

About the oral, Ms Shtark, I was seriously thinking about deleting those comments, but I decided to just not comment on them. It's not like we don't know what it is to have to delete them, but please everyone talk about that on the blogs that do.

Bracha you make loads of sense. Obviously prancing about naked is like too much no matter what. But saying you have to be totally closed up is ridiculous too. If we want our husbands to chase us, there has to be a prize after every hunt, doesn't there?

I see these kollel guys sneaking peeks at me and other girls, and I sure think it would be better if their wives would tease them and make them want to sneek a peek at them. That means they are teasing with peeks, cause guys obviously like that, so okay they are dressed pretty well and not letting it all hang out.

On the other hand, there has to be something to peek at. If under it all is nebby beige worn out undies, I don't seem to be picking up that guys go for that, even after years of marriage, but i guess I hope to know more about that in like some five years and change.

Shalom

6:45 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Again Shira... you're coming back... waaaay back... to saying similar to what I said. Yet not.

And it is true, like David said, every couple develops their own dynamics... what works for "Paul" might not work for "Harry"... But to keep it plain vanilla and NOT to flirt (demurely, okay I agree) with your husband - is just plain wrong advice Shira!

ELISHEVA - if you do want to keep quality posters coming back to your blog - maybe you should choose to sensor the potentially offensive stuff - especially because don't mean for that to happen... Just my take.

In any case - I'm here to stay! (Love your style, and of course the Lakewood angle...)

7:21 PM

1 comment:

Wolf said...

I want to know why frum women thing that long skirts, heels and pantyhose are modest. A man can appreciate a frum attractive woman just as much as a woman in a mini skirt.