Comments on Manners or Middos

152 Comments:
Semgirl said...
Just wanted to say.. hooray I am #1. Now I will read it..

1/04/2006 8:37 PM
Semgirl said...
Unbelievable.. That is the best post or comment you ever wrote.You really hit the nail on the head on like so may points.

And thanks for the compliment, I assure you its mutual..

1/04/2006 9:11 PM
Anonymous said...
Wow, that's "like" brilliant!

Basic hakaras hatov should not be trumped by a person's chumros of frumkeit.

Great job!!!

And now we know that SemGirl's name is Rochel!!!!

1/04/2006 9:24 PM
Anonymous said...
Elisheva Your hatred for coming from a yeshivishe home and being a true blue lakewooder is realy driving you nuts you cant think straight. the germans were also very proper with etiquette,dont think that mentchlichkeit comes from the goyim no one is not saying thank you bcuz its goyish he just dosent have good middos,and must work on himself.

1/04/2006 10:19 PM
s.f. said...
happy to hear from u again figured u were busy hope it works out for the best with a deserving boy, (was looking forward to hear your take on dealing with internet ) as to your post, the idea is true btw u will find it intresting that there r exact details spelld out in sha"s & sforim for xample r yakov emdin in his siddur discusses how a male should compliment the women of the house when he is a guest there for a meal, & there r many more xamples & not inall cases do they fit what me & u may consider right or wrong so details r hard to tell but the general idea is true as for taking it to far the chazon ish in his igros (leeters) xplains that youngsters generaly only see black & white therfore at many times there actions may be wrong but its better to err in this direction then the other (lol i better stop now as i can go on on this topic for a while) in anycase all the best to both u & sg

1/04/2006 10:42 PM
Eshet Chayil said...
Plenty of people still check your blog. Including me. I think you have an amazing way of expressing yourself, and we hope you find the time to keep us updated.

1/04/2006 11:59 PM
Elisheva said...
Thanks so much SG, SF and EC! You are too kind.

I'd hate to start off this with any negativity but I guess the second Mr. Anonymous sort of went negative.

There is little to respond other to say that your problem isn't with hashkafa, you simply don't know how to read. Maybe like if you learned how, you wouldn't see things so negatively.

My whole point was that mentchlichkeit is not goyish and does not come from the goyim as in the Germans yimach shmom.

I love Lakewood, I love my yeshivish upbringing, and I'm sorry that it bothers you that that still does not make me too close-minded to see how silly it is to think that all mentchlichkeit is ettiquette and therefore goyish and therefore bad.

What you were saying was my whole point, but I guess you were too busy thinking about me to concentrate on what I wrote. Hope we can agree on it now.

Shalom

1/05/2006 12:50 AM
big mak said...
hi elisheva! great job bringing your point across. i agree with everything you wrote. great composition skills!! looking forward to hear more from you

1/05/2006 2:07 AM
big mak said...
first anonymous: well if you wanted to find out what semgirl's name was you could have just looked at her profile and press EMAIL, but anyway not everyone is so computer literate

1/05/2006 2:09 AM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Excellent post.

If I may be dan lekaf zchus for a second...?

Frum people often act nasty and hostile, it is true. That does not mean they ARE nasty or hostile. It just means that they are tough. Living in Brooklyn is difficult. Its dirty and dangerous and the traffic is horrific and gas is a gazillion dollars a t-spoon and you can never ever find a parking spot and you allways walk into Shomer Shabbos after borchu no matter what. There are too many fish in too small a pond trying to eat not enough plankton, or whatever it is fish eat, and only the strong survive.

In order to survive in our ultacompetitive world, you have to be tough. You have to get there first and grab the most and get away the fastest, because if you don't some other fish is going to chap your parking spot or your the last space in the really good playgroup.

Thats how people survive. Unfortunatly, people don't know how to turn that off when they need to.

I grew up in Brooklyn, Flatbush to be precise, and now I work in Lakewood, even sleeping in Lakewood most of the week.

My customers all say the same thing: "It's hard to beleive you're a 'Brooklyn guy'".
What do you mean?
"Well., you're too nice to be a real Brooklyn guy. Did you learn out of town for a few years? In Baltimore maybe?"

Nope. I'm Brooklyn born and Brooklyn bred. I know who has the best pizza south of Avenue K and who has the cheapest shoes east of Coney Island Avenue and I can make it from the Battery Tunnel to Boro Park in the eighteen minutes before shkia.

The difference is, I make a special effort to treat everyone with respect. Not to say I'm not as touh as everyone else- I don't let my guard down- but I treat people with repect. If that comes across as nice?
People aren't used to getting respect, I guess.

Sorry for the superlong comment.

PS I have begun blogging again. Check me out.

1/05/2006 2:43 AM
Elisheva said...
Gotta run to work...

BigMak, thanks for the comments, and that is the very reason I wrote her name. It is there in the open and not a secret.

CH, so happy you are back. You bring a very valid point and also like you say it so well and humurously. We definitely need to be on the alert etc. but have to remember to shut it off when it is not needed.

Shalom

1/05/2006 8:52 AM
dave said...
You fail to point out the differences between even the non-Jews in the big cities and the ones in the small towns. I suppose the same can be said. It's just the nature of people-the same people will act differently in different settings.

1/05/2006 11:08 AM
Josh said...
Anon (whichever one questioned Eli's motives) - I think you are way off...

Back to the post - You had a lot of great points. One, I think there is definitely a difference in behavior in certain areas of New York relative to out of town. This is not an excuse - a frum person needs to rise above it. Two, I think anyone in a diverse environment is naturally more sensitive to how they are perceived by others. When you are out of your comfort zone, you tend to be more cautious in dealing with others, since you know they won't necessarily dismiss your behavior as unintended. Unfortunately, one of the side affects of a tight-knit frum community is we treat everyone like family, sometimes shortchanging them of the deference they deserve. Third, there is no excuse for guys/girls to withold due courtesy out of frumkeit, although the awkwardness is understandable (it's hard to say a simple thank you when you are four shades of purple).

But the most searing point you brought across, Eli, was the simple admission, "I am in a very emotionally intense period of life". That one line said as much as your entire post.

1/05/2006 11:46 AM
Anonymous said...
Jews are just as stupid, if not stupider, than non-Jews.

End of story. Don't make excuses for them. Our system has failed, we're all a bunch of jerks.

More Torah learning now than at any point in history, and we're failures. Either the system is broken, or we're really, really stupid.

1/05/2006 12:40 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Okay, fine, but you can't just say "We're stupid" and leave it at that. If you think the system is broken, you can't just hoplessly accept it.

Get off the internet and fix the system.

1/05/2006 1:00 PM
flatbshyid said...
It always bothers me as I am driving on a freezing/rainy/snowy day and I see frum girls/women waiting for a bus what am I suppossed to do? I am married and I hope they would realize I just want to offer a ride should I or shoudn't I? Would you Elisheve accept I ride if it was offered? I have had eldery frum ladies ask for rides. I always ask boys or men and they always accept and most times are suprised that I even stopped to offer. Why don't more people do this?

1/05/2006 1:40 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Because we all learned b'feirush in the slasher films of the sixties and seventies that all hitchhikers are evil psychopathic lunatics who love nothing more than to murder random motorists. So if you see someone waiting for the B11 in the snow, and he's wearing a hockey mask and carrying a chainsaw, DO NOT stop to pick him up unless he is willing to chip in for gas.

This public service announcement has been brought to you by the Frummie Blogger Association in conjunction with the BMG and this blog. The BMG reminds you that using the internet is assur and wil get you cheiremized. Visit R' Mattisyahu Solomon's blog for more details.

1/05/2006 1:56 PM
Anonymous said...
I am doing something about it. I dont live in those makomos hatumah that encourage people to act like jerks.

flatbshyid, if you ever leave a girl stranded in the rain because you are too "frum," mark my words, you will burn in hell for eternity. On a sunny day, no big deal.

1/05/2006 2:52 PM
Anonymous said...
R. Solomon has a blog?

1/05/2006 2:53 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
He should.

I'll bet he could assur things twice as fast that way.

Do really think he doesn't have internet access?

1/05/2006 2:58 PM
fltbshyid said...
To anon

She is not stranded just waiting for the bus. Do you stop everytime you see a frum yid waiting for a bus? It seems yes so tell me when you always stop for a frum girl/women do they accept and come in ?

Can we stop with this internet thing obviously everyone disagrees with the lakewood ban so enough of it, get a life and talk about the post.

1/05/2006 3:08 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Okay. Speaking of rudeness in the Jewish community, I think it was very rude of you to point out that jokes about the internet ban is old news.

:P

1/05/2006 3:17 PM
eli said...
Ok, wonderful . This is definitely excellent award winning writing.. The last few posts were about subjects that precluded me from commenting, as it would be too awkward and possiblly ossur to join in the discussion..

Without a doubt, there is a very fine line between flirting and inappropriate behavior and hostile antisocial behavior.

Maybe I am just too sensitive. But quite often I will be walking in Lakewood on Shabbos. A lady passes me and I say Good Shabbos, because in Monsey and numerous other places I have been to everyone does. When she smiles and says Good Shabbos back it really picks me up. (I assure you there is nothing sensual about, ESPECIALLY IF ITS A MARRIED LADY). But often, not only dont they respond, but they look at you like you are a homeless guy on the subway. It is such a painful, dejecting feeling. You just feel like a worthless subhuman thing all day. Now, maybe , emphasis MAYBE a young single girl is protecting herself in some misguided way. But a married lady in her 30s with children, I refuse to believe that the Torah wants one Yid to hurt another Yid in such an insensitive way.
And if she sincerely is that in tune with Tznius, maybe she took take "Kol Ha Cvoda Shel Bas Melech" a lil more seriously and not be on the street in the first place. And I wont even mention that 90% of the time what they wearing may fulfill the barest requirements of Halacha, but absolutely, positively doesn't Pas for someone who is so attuned to Tznius that they need to hurt someone like that..

The Gamarra discusses the case of the Chosid Shoteh who refuses to save a drowning lady because of Negia. I believe this case, you are not merely refraining from saving someone from drowning, you are throwing them in the water!!

A number of years ago I discussed this very point with Reb Ahron Kreiser ZT"L, and he told me "Mit Frumkeit Mir Ken Horiv Machen Der Velt", (with frumkeit you can destroy the world).

I hope you continue writing, Elisheva, as you are very talented and articulate..

1/05/2006 3:31 PM
Elster said...
One nitpick before I comment:

Elisheva, you really need to cut the "slang" out of your post in your final read through. it's ok for comments, but it should come out of your final work. In fact, with the exception of your opening paragraph, you actually did a decent job of this.

As for your post: The fact is, this isn't a Boro Park/Lakewood problem. You find jewish people everywhere in NY/NJ who show a lack of courtesy and middos in the way they act. BUT, the same can be said for New Yorkers in general who have a bad reputation as being gruff and impolite.

As I often point out, this is not a jewish thing, its an upbringing thing. To say thank you or to say good shabbos is not about a level of frumkiet, that's patently absurd. Does anyone really think that from the generation which received the torah up until the shtetle developed in Europe, this kind of stuff went on? Being overfrum is a fairly new phenomenon, maybe 200 years. But decency and frumkeit shouold never be mutually exclusive. To have answered the guy on line in the store in BP would have been polite. Obviously flirting with him would have been, from certain points of view, incorrect.

But the decency gene being defective is not a by product of the frum community - it is a by-product more of a successful and wealthy community who thinks it's better than everyone else. Who thinks they are more important. Believe me, it happens in the 5 town and Queens and Teaneck just as much.

1/05/2006 3:45 PM
flatbshyid said...
Eli

R' Ahron Kreiser zt'l that was a yid I used to learn in the alumni minyan (the building next to the irvington, what it is now I have no idea) 18 years ago and speak to him every day. How I miss those days.

1/05/2006 3:51 PM
Gavi said...
I will reiterate what has been said before: just because many Jews do so, it may not necessarily be "frum." And conversely, just because many Jews, even religious ones, do not do something, does not mean that it is necessarily "goyish." I think that people often forget to check the Shulchan Aruch and later authorities, or ask a posek, to see what the halacha actually is in a given case. (Try it - I guarantee you that in many instances, you will be surprised how out of touch our communities can be with what is actually correct!)

I remember in yeshiva the discussion of greeting members of the opposite gender came up, and our rebbi (Rav Avishai David) said that he once saw a boy in his community refuse to respond to a girl. He went over to the boy and asked him something along the lines of "Tell me, where in the Shulchan Aruch does it permit one to not display proper middos?"

As well, cf. the story in the book "All for the Boss" where Mrs. Herman is telling Rav Boruch Ber Leibowitz about a disturbing dream that she had, and Rav Boruch Ber made it clear by his body language that he was paying attention to her every word...

Finally - a belated response to an earlier post about "intimate discussions." Rav Shlomo Wolbe is pretty clear in his Ma'amarei Hadracha Lechatannim that such things should remain between husband and wife (pp. 13-14) - or at least that's the way I understand him.

1/05/2006 5:20 PM
bmgbochur said...
ive been reading ur blog- and comments for a while- and love the way you blog.
about middos- ppl defintly have to learn how to act correctly- when in a store how not to be a jerk etc.. some ppl will cut in front of you- blurt out their order when ur by bagel nosh etc.. ppl have to learn to deal with other people- belive it or not. not everyguy in lakewood is a cave men. we learn, we party, and yes we do behave!!! when im driving i will go out of my way to give a hitch to a lakewood kollel guy shleping his 2 kids 10 blocks to the babysitter, even if its out of the way-- and many others would do the same also... and yes guys in lakewood DO end up getting normal jobs. some become accountants, others get into real estate, and some lakewooders become lawyers... and trust me with 10 yrs of learning under their belts they are good at it.
yes in lakewood they should stress midos, but they are busy with a milliion and one other things to be able to talk tachlis... they have to decide to cancel a auction cause its not al pe the ruach of the yeshiva etc....
but anyways- lakewood is a great place. and kudos for them, all jews are great...
and yes if you see someone say good shabbos even if its a girl or married lady, its a nice thing to do.
when i was in boro park for shabbos i said good shabbos to evryone and almost had the shomrim running after me- but if you do what your gut feelings tells u to do- u are right- no questions there.

good shabbos everyone- and iyh all the bloggers and everyone else should find their right shiduchim asap... (it'll help the shidduch crissis, lol)

1/05/2006 11:27 PM
Elisheva said...
Wow! Like where do I start? I am not as organized as SemGirl in the way she responds to so many comments, so here are my thoughts at random.

Elster, I am like so glad you noticed! Cause first I was like almost in tears about what you wrote after I tried so hard this time to do just what you said in my final read through. I also I guess have that other voice telling me, this is you, and it's how you write and besides some guys say it's cute (I will admit it is a big nisayon for me when people will say I am cute to tune that out. I am human.). But I did try to take out most of my teen-talk from the more serious parts.

A few of you brought up that this is a city thing and not a frum thing. I mentioned that I also thought of that in my post. But even though it might be because we are city people (I guess lakewood is becoming a city, besides half the crowd here grew up in Brooklyn) and out-of-towners don't act this way regardless of religion or frumkeit, still the problem is that we, as frum people, should work to overcome it, and instead we are excusing it that goyish things are silly anyway, or who cares for silly out-of-town ettiquette. My point was that that is wrong, and when it's midos or common sense we should care.

Josh, great points as usual, especially about being close-knit makes it like family which tends to have a downside too. I was hoping you'd see that I posted even though you said something about turning something off, I wasn't sure what you meant. I always value your opinions. And I guess you are so right about revealing lots in that sentence, though I hope the rest of my post was worthy on its own.

FY and Eli brought up the whole giving-a-ride-saying-Gut-Shabbos thing. Okay, so for a girl's perspective. It really depends alot on the particular circumstances. Like on Moochy's post about pointing out to a girl that her slip is showing. From some guys it can be a real off comment, but like if he is obviously older, or detached, or like a fatherly type like he would feel for his daughter in this situation, it is different.

Personally, as a single girl, I probably would turn down a ride on an average case from a guy. Again, certain cases would be different. But like still there is nothing wrong with offering. At worse I'll smile, say thanks, it's alright. I would never ignore the guy, unless he is leering at me, you know what I mean.

As far as Gut Shabbos I don't say it to boys and I don't expect it from them. But if a guy said it to me, like he is not the typical BP/Lakewood/heimish guy and says Good Shabbos, I would totally smile back and say Gut Shabbos. People have to learn the difference between like being normal frum where you don't initiate things for no reason with the opposite sex and being mentchlich that if someone greeted you, or gave you something, or asked you something, you answer like a mentch. Again, all this is unless he seems to try to be flirting. (Then it depends if he is hot and if I am in a weak moment, but ideally I would ignore him then, lol.)

BTW Eli about your married lady comment, it doesn't seem from reading loads of comments on blogs that guys have their hots turned off just because a lady is married. And I can tell you I see guys staring when I am with married freinds too.

Gavi, I agree with some of your points alot, but like disagree with some. I don't think everything has to be just halacha. There is that whole Ramban about being a naval birshus haTorah. There is a spirit of Yiddishkeit which is healthy especially in today's crazy world. But again obviously we can't go overboard and must know the limits. I think that like everyone these days just go to all the extremes. Like either believe all guys and girls should always greet each other cause just doing that is not assur, or like you just totally ignore the opposite sex.

It's funny you mention Rabbi David. I know some girls from his sem, and even met his daughter-in-law. She is so nice and he sounds like a real talmid chochom but normal. I like what he said, and also about that story in All For The Boss.

BMG B, was that you in Bagle Nosh? I didn't mean to cut ahead of you. Lol! Seriously, you have a cute attitide.

Hope this covered everyone. I have to go now, but will reread the comments later.

Shalom

1/06/2006 12:36 AM
bmgbochur said...
elisheva:
thanks for the compliment- I knew it was a out of towner that cut before me :) jk.
anyways there should be shiurim in lkwd teaching everyone the proper etiquite (did I spell it right?) how to drive down clifton and forest, speaking on a cell phone while passing a bottle to ur baby and not hitting all the guys walking to yeshiva. its so sad when I see an ambulance on the corner of 7th and forest working on someone on the floor... it doesn't have to be like that..
on to another note "cute" that's usually something that is written about a 5 yr old boy or a girl till she gets married. I am a 'guy' and I'm 23 so cute doesn't really describe me, if u want a full description of me ill some how get it over to u. just give a shout out that u want it... y would u want it anyways, ur dating now.
but yeh midos midos midos... We all have to practice and do it right...
everyone remember to say thanks to the cashier by the grocery store, tell her she does a great job, and watch her smile, its free so why not (we are all jewish and would do anything that free, isn't that right)
gtg so have a good one everyone, and rember smile, u can make the world a good and better place.

1/06/2006 1:55 AM
Elster said...
Sorry if I upset you, though. it was meant as constructive criticism, not an attack. And as I have bwritten many times in many comments, it's really your work and you should write however you so choose, regardless of what idiots like me think.
Have a good shabbos./

1/06/2006 9:46 AM
serene said...
I recently found your blog and started reading it... Finally someone who is my age, and frum. Wow I love the way you are so open with your feelings...Thanks.

1/06/2006 9:57 AM
aaron said...
Hey, Anonymous, where do you live in your mokom kadosh, so all of us who live in mokom tumos can come make aliyah 3 times a year to bow down to you? What an attitude you have.

1/06/2006 1:13 PM
bmgbochur said...
aaron:
whats your problem exactly?

1/06/2006 1:42 PM
eli said...
BMG bochur, you sound like a nice guy. In some of youyr earlier posts, I thought O, no another troll. So I owe you an apology.

Elisheva, Ok I will admit that I am not a moloch. Of course if a married lady is very attractive I will look at her, hopefully not in an obviously improper way.

But, I am not going to flirt with her, especially in front of small children, Cmon..

You just more more Znus, when you overly obsess about these matters. In Baltimore, everyone says G Shabbos to each other, and quite often there is mixed seating by a Kiddush or Simcha. Yet, I can tell you from firsthand experience that you don't anywhere the amt of stories of bad stuff going on, like you do in Monroe, Skver , Willy and other deep woods places.

Lakewood really should be going in the direction of being normal, that was R Ahron's mehalach, rather then trying to compete with the "lunatics have taken over the asylum" model of some communities..

1/06/2006 2:20 PM
eli said...
BMG bochur, you sound like a nice guy. In some of youyr earlier posts, I thought O, no another troll. So I owe you an apology.

Elisheva, Ok I will admit that I am not a moloch. Of course if a married lady is very attractive I will look at her, hopefully not in an obviously improper way.

But, I am not going to flirt with her, especially in front of small children, Cmon..

You just encourage more Znus, when you overly obsess about these matters. In Baltimore, everyone says G Shabbos to each other, and quite often there is mixed seating by a Kiddush or Simcha. Yet, I can tell you from firsthand experience that you don't anywhere the amt of stories of bad stuff going on, like you do in Monroe, Skver , Willy and other deep woods places.

Lakewood really should be going in the direction of being normal, that was R Ahron's mehalach, rather then trying to compete with the "lunatics have taken over the asylum" model of some communities..

1/06/2006 2:22 PM
Elisheva said...
Elster don't worry. I totally didn't take it the wrong way. I wouldn't think you would mean anything in a bad way. I meant that I was frustrated that all my work which i did do to go over my post was wasted, but then I saw that you did notice. Thanx.

BMG B, I said you attitude was cute, not you. I would never chas veshalom say that to a 23 year-old guy to his face (though actually some boys are really cute and we girls secretly like that). Just the way you expressed stuff.

Eli, good points. We do need to try to be more normal.

Serene, hi!

Gut Shabbos everyone.

1/06/2006 3:07 PM
bmgbochur said...
elisheva (girlz first, lol) ok i understood taht i was just playing on ur words-- but thanks

eli:
u never insulted me dont worry:)

gotta go
good shabbos

1/06/2006 4:35 PM
David_on_the_Lake said...
Welcome back...
I think that it's a cultural thing..
Someone already pointed out that our lack of ettiquette usually runs along the fualt lines of the non-Jewish population. Anyone from Iowa will tell you that people from New York and New Jersey are pushy and rude...
Second the more frum a community the less they relate to "America" and its ettiquette. They simply have not left the ship..
It'll take a few generations for us to internalize the whole "American" way of thinking and acting....from holding the door open for someone behind us..to not pushng in front of a line..to waiting patiently with a goofy smile on our face from now until eternity if we are told to do so..
Until then..we all have to worry about ourselves and those in our sphere of influence and not try to change the world..
BTW Rabbi Reisman has an excellent tape on his topic..analyzing why we don't conform to local ettiquette...it's interesting to hear..
(I can lend it to you..if you'd like)

Gut Voch

1/07/2006 9:23 PM
typically frum said...
elisheva stunning as usual. you really practice what you preach. your sesitivity and aidelkeit is obvious in every word you write. im happy to see there are some sensible frummies out there, and in lakewood no less. lots of luck with finding your spouse make sure it's someone who really deserves you!

1/08/2006 2:13 PM
Limey2001 said...
My pet peeve of Lakewood too.
Great Piece Eli7!
Its all part of the rush rush rush rat race syndrome.
If you had to say GS to every new yorker you'd be there all day.
Definitely as Dave said too cultural but not the never left ship thing... for crying out load thats willy and new square, In lakewood they are just transplanted NYers acting like NYers to the dismay of us "out of towners"

1/08/2006 5:26 PM
Anonymous said...
it may take a whole day to which everyone in brooklyn a good shabbos. but it defnitly would make the world a better place (and more freindly)
maybe they should speak about this at the next chofetz chaim tisah bav event. (im serius)
and btw where ever I am I try to wish gs to everyone. in israel I walked doen malchai yisroel wishing gs to everyone. they looked at me like I was crazy and didn't answer (oh some crazy american) but I did what I think is right so who cares about them?
the only ppl I will not wish gs to is girls that are unmarried (im not a pervert) and from the ages of about 15 yrs old till my age, unless they are there with their parents, otherwise they think that yippie, a guys intrested in them.
sometimes if the girls are modern, like teaneck or 5 towns type I will say gs, cause they expect it, and don't take it like I'm trying to flirt with them, only like I'm being a nice gent.

gs everyone!
ok have a great day.

I can't log in now. but I'm BMGBOCHUR

1/08/2006 8:15 PM
Anonymous said...
David,
Which Rabbi Reisman shiur (ie which tape #) are you talking about?

1/09/2006 7:17 PM
David_on_the_Lake said...
anon..
It's entitled
"Common courtesy & the religious jew"
Melachim I 2:20 Tape #15

1/09/2006 10:20 PM
Anonymous said...
Don't have that one but I'll be sure to check it out, thanks!

1/09/2006 10:33 PM
ms. shtark said...
wowee, elisheva! Great post, I have been out of the picture a while and I came back to a very well written composition.
I agree with you about most of the things you have written. But keep in mind that people really want to be mentchen, but you never know what is going on in their day. I can't really talk because I don't live in Lakewood or even the N.Y. area. I am an "out-of-towner" but even here, not everyone says good shabbos but I really think it is done out of tzniyus. I just have a little funny thing about that - My mom and I were walking somewhere on Shabbos and we walked by a man. My mother called out good shabbos and he just walked past. I told my mom - turn around, i bet you he is taking a look and lo and behold! What do you know? He was staring right back.
Ok, i am not trying to make fun of this man. we all have our taivos and he passed the nisayon of not looking at us directly but his yetzer horo got the best of him at the last moment.
I do think though, that manners and etiquette do need to be worked on by the greater frum and yeshivish population but the basics are there.
What also is a big problem these days is the lack of derech eretz that young kids in schools have these days. Goyim are treated like trash - i know that this is to safeguard their precious neshamos but i mean - my niece asked me why i work in an office with other goyim and if i am going to become a goy too - puhh leese
i never would take a ride from a man unless it was a relative or my friend's father or someone i knew well enough. I would not either offer rides to guys. However, on occasions when my brother or my mom were with me, i have offered rides to bochurim standing in a rain or snow storm and they have greatfully accepted. don't worry,, i will give the occasional female a ride too:-). I feel honored when someone accepts a ride from me. I feel like i am passing on the favour that has been done for me numerous times.
one more thing, let us not forget all the chesed organizations and the gemachs that are operating in lakewood. I have heard so many amazing stories! When i hear about the chair gemach and the crib gemach and this and that one, i personally feel honored to be part of am yisroel.
sorry for boring y'all, have a good night

1/10/2006 10:12 PM
bmgbochur said...
ms. shtark:
u didn't bore us at all. its a good insight on the matter.
I do hear where u are comming from, what really gets weird is when you are in the mall, and see a girl, pretty, cute, whatever and u look at her, not stare a fast glance after u pass each other (going oppisite directions) don't say anything cause its not proper and then both of us turn around- kinda like a second peek- it gets weird, both blush for a second, and then move on.... I think the same way a guy is curious about a girl, the girl is curious about the same, but obviusly not as much, as guys go more for looks, then does a girl go for a guys look.

am I wrong? maybe... I wanna hear back.P

1/10/2006 11:50 PM
Elisheva said...
TF, thanx for the nice words. And Limey, you too.

Ms. Stark, I am so glad you commented. You raise alot of very good points. Perhaps I didn't stress all the chessed and stuff that we all take so much for granted. Thank you for reminding us all.

I do think that this like makes my point stronger. Because it shows that a lot of things are not a lack of feeling for chessed because we are city ppl or whatever, because look at all the chessed we do that other city people don't dream of. So it seems that sometimes we don't act right out of a misplaced sense that it is not "yeshivish" to act so "American". And what I am saying is that sometimes that may be right, but sometimes we are mistaken, so we really should think it through better.

That story with your mother puts it so well the whole thing with being all frum and then staring! Like I said I don't greet bachurim or men generaly either, but to not say back to a lady who greeted you and then to stare... ( I just wonder if he was staring at you or your mom? lol)

BMG B, that mall situation definitely sounds uncomfortable, but I am not one of those girls that stare like that. I won't say I won't check out a cute guy, but not in that way. Only if I am somewhere and he is somewhere in my vision and I will have the desire to check out that gorgeous looking bachur. I don't turn to look at a guy if I passed him. Either you greet him, or you just comtinue on your way. That looking back, as far as I know, is usually a bachur type of thing. Some guys just have to learn not to be so overt. It isn't classy.

Shalom

1/11/2006 1:09 AM
Lvnsm27 said...
wow you're back.

Anyway, yeah middos is deffinately something that we should all keep in mind.

1/11/2006 3:10 AM
Elisheva said...
Readers, I love you all (well, most) but I am trying to keep the comments clean and mature. Thank You.

The person who's comment I erased knows what I mean. I hate doing it, but there is a difference between what we do here and what others are trying to do.

Shalom

1/11/2006 9:19 AM
ms. shtark said...
ok here goes.
Elisheva, you are 100% right that ppl. are trying to stay yeshivish and erring in the process. Really everyone means for the best. It is a geder that may be necessary in certain circumstances but may be hurtful in others. We want to stay sheltered but sometimes we have to lift our heads out of the stand.
ok, bmg-b, I am not sure what you are asking but I think what you mean is that looks are more imp. to the guy than the boy. You are probably right but looks can sometimes turn off the girl too. if he looks like a slob and he comes into the date after a good smoke without even bothering to pop in a mint, that will make a really bad impression. i think girls look more for warmth and charisma and comfort level but i happen to know that boys do look for that too. i one time had a guy tell me on a date: "i feel bad for girls who are fat or ugly because then they just don't have a chance" i don't know what he was trying to get across but i dumped him like a hot potato (don't worry it was done a little nicer than that) i don't know, maybe he was commiserating me and maybe he was complimenting me in some demented way.
but i think that if a guy is not the best looking ( i don't say ugly) but he has so much personality and he is so fascinating and sweet, the girl would theoretically still be interested.
i don't usually turn around to look at a boy once he passes but i will notice if a guy is good looking or not. hey, i am human!

1/11/2006 1:43 PM
ms. shtark said...
sorry i meant lift your head out of the sand (not stand) and that looks are more important to the guy than the girl (not boy)i was typing so fast that i wasnt concentrating

1/11/2006 1:44 PM
bmgbochur said...
ms shtark: yes looks plays a big part when a guys going out with a girl, but even a girl if she's not the prettiest, if she has a great personality guys will like her.
and yes I know girls like good looking guys (everyone likes me!:)) but even if a guys not tall dark and handsome, if he has a great personality, as u wrote the girls will like him.
btw tall dark and handsome is a plus, but that's not the only thing about a guy, he has to be nice also...

elisheva: don't know if u care, but I finaly did start a blog. at: lifeinbmg.blogspot.com

1/11/2006 2:45 PM
bmgbochur said...
ms shtark: yes looks plays a big part when a guys going out with a girl, but even a girl if she's not the prettiest, if she has a great personality guys will like her.
and yes I know girls like good looking guys (everyone likes me!:)) but even if a guys not tall dark and handsome, if he has a great personality, as u wrote the girls will like him.
btw tall dark and handsome is a plus, but that's not the only thing about a guy, he has to be nice also...

elisheva: don't know if u care, but I finaly did start a blog. at: lifeinbmg.blogspot.com

1/11/2006 2:46 PM
The Rabbi's Kid said...
the frum world focuses wayyy too much on the bein adam lamakom and too little on the bein adam lechavero

as for the way goyim are portrayed, don't get me started

1/11/2006 7:24 PM
Semgirl said...
TRK .. couldnt agree with you more

BMGB "everyone likes me!:))" and you are so modest,lol..

Elish he was obvioulsy staring at Ms Shtark, she's just being shy..and modest, BMGB, you can take a page from her book. And thanks for deleting that DM creep..

1/11/2006 7:53 PM
bmgbochur said...
oh yes, my modesty is awesome. I'm a anov, what should I say.....
I guess its more of a subconsonence feeling that someone is looking at someone- yes ppl do look at other ppl, although one has to usually control ones self not to, shmiras aynim, and especialy when it may come to insult a girl or whoever by looking at them, btw I'm not talking about steering at someone, that is plain out rude- even if staring at another guy

1/11/2006 8:04 PM
ms. shtark said...
Like hello, I cannot count on my fingers any more how many guys i have dated and i can only count one tall dark and handsome guy (in my opinion) and (semgirl u know this) he was a jerk!! of course we've gotta look for more in a guy than just looks. they just aren't there anymore!!

1/11/2006 10:54 PM
bmgbochur said...
I was just kidding about the tall dark and handsome thing-;-)
every guy wants a nice girl and every girl a nice guy- the rbsha set this world that each girl gets a guy etc. and one can only hope and pray, that he gets what he wants, whatever it might be. hopefully what they pray for should be something good. like a good personality, and don't only go for external things....

1/11/2006 11:42 PM
Elisheva said...
TRK, I second the motion. Very well put.

About the other thing, looks like matter for sure, but only as part of a whole. A guy who has personality, zest of life, intelligence, middos, all that attracts you to him to, almost in a physical way even. So if he looks alright (no, we can't all get the tall, dark, and handsome, though maybe...) then you can still be totally attracted to him even up to developing a huge crush if he has the other qualities.

Shalom

1/12/2006 12:59 AM
Datingmaster, Jerusalem said...
just to say welcome back
you rock!

1/12/2006 3:49 AM
AMSHINOVER said...
i just spent the day in a office in Howell and you lakewood girls are strange, what would happen if you refered to me by my 1st name? when 1 of you asked for mr.amshinover i thought you meant my father.

1/12/2006 12:52 PM
Scraps said...
My family and I have noticed for years that natives of the NY-metro area are distinctly lacking in courtesy. (We're from the far end of nowhere, for the record.) For instance, numerous times when we were going somewhere with a wheelchair-bound relative and had doors rudely slammed in our face while entering and exiting shops and restaurants, while in other places people did the natural mentchlich thing and held the door open. Not to say that there aren't any decent, polite people in the NY area, but doesn't it say something that people there assume you're from out of town if you have a shred of common decency?!

1/12/2006 2:16 PM
bmgbochur said...
scraps:
unforunateley that is the way life is. there are people who wanna do good, but the soceity that they are in corrupts them. a little child is born, doesn't know anything, and he learns from what he sees.
we live in a tough world that in order to move foward one has to show who is the boss, when one acts that way u loose all respect for others, and yes u won't hold a door open for a wheelchair.
(btw I hold a door open even if the person is perfectly healthy and if a person is in a wheel chair or had crouches I will run ahead and and open the door and wait a minute till he gets there. u should then see his face, how happy they are that someone helped them and treated them nicely)
I am a new yorker and I still act respectful (i think I do at least)
I learnt it from a date a rabbi in brooklyn gave about 7 yrs ago. the rabbi is a public speaker and said that he was by a bris in lakewood, and he saw someone hesitating to come over, finaly after 20 mins the guy went over and said I would like to thank u for all ur shiurim etc, if gives me much chizuk- the rov asked why did u hesitate? he answered: "such a person like u doesn't need my little thanks- ur such a great man" to what the rov answered ur so wrong- (in a nice way) everyone needs thanks- even me!!!
from that I started always saying thanks (some ppl think I'm nuts) and with that comes being a mentch- otherwise what is everything all worth...

1/12/2006 2:37 PM
Elisheva said...
I'm not sure what you mean, Amshinover, but from what you say it seems what you expect is more weird than you think of lakewood girls.

I totally agree that some Lakewood girls are like way too busy with fake stuff and not the real yiddishket, but it is simple manners that you don't address a strange person, male or female, by their first name. A girl doesn't call her accountant Chaim, or Bob or whatever, and you don't walk into the office of any business and tell the guy, oh Moish or Steve, how are you? You refer to anyone you don't know on a personal level and as a contemporary as Mr. So and So or Mrs. So and So. This is elementary respect.

Pity that people are so into looking to find fault that they forget this. Or is it that we have zero respect left for anything today?

Shalom

1/12/2006 5:05 PM
Semgirl said...
Or is it that some guys are so desperate to get a pretty girls attention, that they will try any ruse. It depends I wasn't in that office, Mr. A., so I don't know.

I have seen both sides of the coin. In some places like my neighbor's house or my father's friends, to say, Rabbi Shwartz is so phony, why not just wear a sweatshirt that says I AM VERY FRUM..

On the other hand, in a pizza shop, or the library bochurim in their 20s, say hi Ruchy, and you know that they are totally flirting..

1/12/2006 8:29 PM
bmgbochur said...
amshinover:
semgirl is so right. when i go into an office and a frum girl calls me by my first name i am taken back. Am i so close to her? Do i know her, ok calling me Mr. so and so, sounds a bit weird, but its better then the other way.

1/12/2006 11:56 PM
ms. shtark said...
wow, i didn't know that the lakewood library is such a hangout! is that the one on lexington or are there a few?
I also think that addressing ppl by their first name is a little bit more touchy in Lakewood and in Flatbush because practically everyone you deal with is frum there. I deal with irreligious ppl at work and lots of times, I do call them by their first names without having met them before because we want the person to feel comfortable and to make it less stiff. However, if the person is older or very formal themselves or frum, I will address them by mr/miss. you have to fit the situation.
also a bunch of my mom's friends keep telling me to call them tova or rena or sharon but i feel it is a lack of respect so i don't.

1/13/2006 12:26 AM
Elisheva said...
Funny about the parent's friends. I see that it depends alot on different crowds. Cause SemGirl thought it would be so weird or acting extra frum to call her father's friends Mr. Whatever, and Ms. Stark feels uncomfortble calling her mother's friend's by their first names.

I am mostly with Ms. Stark on this. I would never think of calling my father's friends by their names. my mothers friends though, some I call Mrs. Whatever, but other real close friends, or from way back, I grew up with and call them by their first names.

So I guess alot is simply different crowds. But still i think that like a regular frum man that a girl meets for the first time you just don't call him by his first name, and not because of frumkeit. because I don't think it is expected and therefore it is not respectful or will look flirty.

Sorry Amsh, if you were looking for them to flirt. Sometimes we lose control and do. I guess you weren't one of those times. Maybe next time...

Shalom

1/13/2006 1:01 AM
shy said...
I Love this line: LOLOLOLOL!!!!

My brothers always tease me about how I still sign my name using a heart to dot the “i”. Lately the complaint became more frum. It is goyish to be busy with hearts and stuff.

Great Blog! Great Post! Great Writer! Great to know there are more out there like me!

1/13/2006 9:38 AM
AMSHINOVER said...
or Steve? how'd ya know ;)
i worked in many offices and for enough years to know a] using a 1st name is not flirtatious
b]it is strange to communicate with someone in that manner c]not halachaicaly required so why add fake regulations to an already complicated set of legalities?

1/13/2006 1:31 PM
ms. shtark said...
amshinover, as I mentioned before, I agree with you. This works beautifully in a very professional setting but a secular one. When dealing with frum people or older people, or just more "formal" ones, (the last two categories not necessarily frum) they may take offense by calling them Noel (a person I now in real life who our office only calls by his surname). you are right, it is definitely not flirtatios but not warranted everywhere. have a good shabbos.

1/13/2006 2:27 PM
Anonymous said...
not fair, semgirl has a shiur going on and noone is posting by you.
i guess everyone is at the shiur.

1/14/2006 11:30 PM
eli said...
Good morning Elisheva, my love. Will we be graced by your beautiful presence today..

1/15/2006 10:08 AM
FrumSingleGuy said...
I posted again and would love to hear your thoughts...

1/15/2006 7:30 PM
bmgbochur said...
thanks for putting me on your lists of blogs... I apreciate it.
I guess that means I'm moving a step up in life!!!! and lots of publicity

1/16/2006 12:35 AM
Admirer said...
Elisheva, love, you raise great points in your post. Let me tell you why sometimes we have to put our manners on hold that you girls just don't understand.
Shabbos I was invited to someone's house for the day seuda and his wife is wearing a robe so tight and fitted that forget about making out the lace, I could make out the things sticking out (trying not to be too prust). She looks like a regular yeshivish girl, speaks to her kids in yiddish/english like her husband (I don't really know him, he sits in my chabura), and had this shaitel that was long, wavy and gorgeous. She is not speaking to me regularly, like all yeshivish people, but every once in a while she asks a question about what I said or makes a comment to me or whatever. She is married, so I am sure she has no intention to flirt and is only being herself and that is how she is. But for a normal bachur, this is killing me. I don't know what these ladies are thinking. And it's not like girls, they are married, so how can they say they don't know about boys. So I either be nice and every exchange will haunt me in my dreams and thoughts and I will get gehenom (which I don't pretend to be a tzaddik, I do a lot), or I try not to talk too much to her to minimze how much I can later fantasize she liked me.

1/16/2006 12:51 AM
Semgirl said...
Admirer.... or Duh..you find another place to eat.. Hers's an idea go to Eizikovitz's Shul. He always has a big seuda in the shul for only bochurim..

I B'darchei achrita, rosha hu.. Ata Mavin..

1/16/2006 7:34 AM
Limey2001 said...
SG- for once you are way off the mark. How is a "normal" bochor to know that a "normal" guy in his chabura has a "hot" wife who dresses in PJ's(yes i think coming to the table in a robe is PJ's) that will turn him on???? You must be assuming that admirer will be turned on by anyone and anything, while that may be true about some boys its not the norm (or am i out of loop) Furthermore although it is "Friday Night" the lady could wear something a little more tzinos in deference to her husband having invited boys from the Yeshiva...
However blaming the lack of manners on a beautiful women is idiocy. Be a mentch think with your head not your......

1/16/2006 2:54 PM
Limey2001 said...
that last part was meant for admirer not SG

1/16/2006 2:55 PM
Elisheva said...
I'm ashamed to say, but I think I like know what this guy means. There are some girls that like are from regular yeshivish homes and marry kollel guys and I look how they dress after they got married and I wonder what happened to them. Caue like they dressed way better before.

Like you'd think it would get better after marriage, after all they have their husband. Why suddenly parade everything for all to see? Surely this guy should not eat their anymore, but I won't deny in Israel in sem if I was at a house where I knew there was this real gorgeous guy who ate their sometimes I knew I should not go there anymore, but at times I did anyway. We are human.

But like I doubt she is trying to tease this guy or anyone. It's just pathetic how girls dress to show off sometimes and not to make themselves feel good. But you can be polite and that's all. Why will ignoring her make you think any less of how she dressed?

Shalom

1/16/2006 2:56 PM
Semgirl said...
Limey2001 .. .. Sorry for the confusion, I meant he shouldnt go back there a second time, obviously.. Like for example, there is a store near my lil brother's school and one of the managers is very friendly and courteos, and so HOT, it bothers me for the rest of the day.

Now, even though its very convenient to buy a sandwich and snacks there for my brother and a real nuisance to go to Shoprite or town, I dont shop there anymore.
My friends all think that I lost my marbles, but who cares.

1/16/2006 3:27 PM
Limey2001 said...
Eli7, The reason they do that is obvious, as you've discussed in early posts its called "now that i'm out of my mothers power i can dress the way i wanted before marriage" they eventually grow out of it.
2- It doesn't feel good to turn a guy on??? that part of feeling feminine! I doubt she was showing off...

SG-I envy your control, for what its worth i don't think you've lost your marbles

1/16/2006 4:21 PM
Scraps said...
Personally, I never understood why it was that all of a sudden, once they're married, girls (or guys, for that matter) think they can do whatever they want. For instance, it's considered "okay" (at least in some circles) to talk to members of the opposite sex once one is married, but beforehand-- chas v'shoelaces a girl and boy should talk to each other. Helloooo--the married woman is an eishet ish, she should be MORE assur to talk to once she's married! I just don't get it...

1/16/2006 5:03 PM
Single and Frum in the City said...
I had a teacher in HS who said she doesn't have married people over at her house-ever, because it's not tzniusdik for her husband-or for her. She's anti-couple socializing. That's not a way to live. But some lines must be drawn so women aren't ho-ing around.

1/16/2006 7:53 PM
Semgirl said...
Scraps you are either very insulated or very naive. I am not all saying that boys and girls shouldnt even say Good Shabbos to each other or exchange simple courtesy. It just makes you crazier and more hormonally frustrated rather than less. However, the reasoning is that a bochur gets all excited by the littlest, most innocent thing. A simple tell Professor so-and-so Im going to be late for class or can you take notes for me, and they get that smile. The more frum they are, the more excited they get, to the point that the ones that wear a black hat to Chemistry are breathing heavy because of a 'just saw in Algebra class' smile in the hallway.

Whereas, a normal married guy, emphasis on 'normal' can talk to you for an hour without any hormonal responses, especially if his wife is available that week.

1/16/2006 7:53 PM
Elisheva said...
Limey, the first point I am not so sure about and don't remember doing a post on it. I know some of these girls personally and they weren't just dressing for their mothers. I am talking about girls who were just that way and not flirts and suddenly get engaged and married and seem to be influenced by this "I have to show everyone what my husband got" mentality that they like did not have before.

Your second point I agree with. Okay, I totally admit we have that big nisayon of having that thrill of knowing we are getting a guy to look/excited. I guess I always think/wish/hope that it would be lesss after marrige, like surely not more. Like then we can use the thrill for our husbands, tease him and it's all for the better, a mitzva, and from seeing all the stuff from frum married men online, it seems that the more we do it can never hurt.

So like as a single that nisayon is big because we sometimes feel naughty or horny and want that thrill and have no legitimate way of getting it, but why don't the married ladies focus it on their husbands? Again, I am not giving mussar or judging, and i understand sometimes a guy can be so like "OMG" that he gets us all silly and stuff, but to walk around like you're for sale is beyond me why it's like so accepted by so many in our crowd.

Scraps I agree that SemGirl put it well that a amrried lady should flirt less because she is married, but a married person can talk more with the opposite sex probably without it leading to flirting as much as I just explained before, less frustrated hormones i would think.

Looking FWG, people go to crazy extremes. Like we have couples in our house for Shabbos and we are pretty yeshivish. They are not here to flirt and we are a family. obviously it is like different if it is two young couples in a very iffy situation. I guess these things depend on the situation, but like to say it is always wrong is like anti-social. And what ever happened to hachnosas orchim? There has to be a time that it is ok.

Shalom

1/16/2006 9:15 PM
Jewboy said...
Well, well. This is certainly a controversial issue. I've often taken issue with some people's strict attitude about couple being together. A married friend of mine and his wife almost didn't come to one of my sheva brochos because there were couples coming. They only relented when they were assured the couples would sit separately. I've had many Shabbos meals with couples where the interaction was entirely normal. I think that often there's only a problem if a person makes a problem out of it. Of course, it's entirely different when talking about inviting single guys or girls when members of the opposite sex will be there. I had a few uncomfortable situations as a bochur when I was invited for a meal and it turned out there were attractive, single girls there. However, I feel the couples issue is often blown out of proportion. A married person especially has to be able to interact properly with members of the opposite sex, and should be able to do this without having inappropriate thoughts about someone else's spouse.

1/16/2006 9:36 PM
KiddushClubGuy said...
Jewboy- you hit the nail on the bead. It only matters if the girl is attractive. If she was an obese dog it wouldn't matter. As a matter of fact your male friend might intentionally stay away. It's like the guy in Blue Fringe singining about "kol isha". He won't listen to here because she might be pretty.

1/16/2006 9:54 PM
Pragmatician said...
I don't know between who and who, but there's Machloikes whether there's is wisdom to be found by the non-Jews (I.E non Torah based) and one side agrees there is. According to that opinion then, something that could be say goyish, is not necessarily always bad.

1/17/2006 7:09 AM
Limey2001 said...
7- why not focus on your husband???
It's more of a thrill, thrilling your husband is usually 1-easy 2- old hat
And its called "playing the field"

1/17/2006 9:20 AM
Limey2001 said...
ps i was refering to your just being feminine post

1/17/2006 9:21 AM
jewishbifemme said...
time for a new post

1/17/2006 1:37 PM
Scraps said...
Hehe...I think that's the first time I've EVER been called insulated or naive. That makes me laugh. (Not a derogatory laugh, just a isn't-that-funny laugh.)

I can see your point. I was really thinking of it more from a woman's end of things, to be honest. Married women shouldn't be flirting with other men--married or unmarried--and yet, it's still considered "fine" in a lot of communities for a married woman to conduct herself in a manner that would not have been considered appropriate when she was single. That was more my point, sorry I was unclear.

1/17/2006 3:10 PM
Elisheva said...
I hope to comment on the comments soon. Meanwhile I'm sorry if I have to reiterate that though I totally welcome most comments, if you have like ZERO class and ZERO brains to figure out when your comments have no place here and are not wanted, please do not bother checking out this blog.

I'm not judging a horny or desperate guy, but please, just a little class.

Shalom

1/17/2006 4:24 PM
live reporting said...
i guess it must be me but i was in bklyn & report 1 a bling goy going to the bus with his stick & only 1 yeshivish guy from all the well manard goyim there helpd him & waited untill the correct bus came 2 i was standing in bp trying to hitch a ride a guy stops & took me it was 10 minutes it turns out this guy was going to park were i was standing he lives there, he saw me waiting he gave me the ride 3 2 guys in line friday in the grocary each giving the other the rite of way now thats bp for u

1/17/2006 11:03 PM
s.f. said...
reminds me a story a guy asks his freind for change of a doller the guy checks his change only has 90 cents he says i m so sorry i dont have the guy says oh just how sorry r u is it worth 10 cents,(point being the guy had manners not midos)

1/17/2006 11:12 PM
geshmaker said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

1/18/2006 10:42 AM
ruhcobGMB said...
time 4 a new post. if you want to reach 300 like SG, all u have 2 do is write about underwear, your "boobies" or lesbianism in seminary again. these are the topics that your readers are interested in. not "middos". go back 2 your roots. reread the end of your first ever post!

1/18/2006 5:28 PM
Parsha Potpourri said...
Sorry ruhcobgmb, but if you're looking for a cheap thrill neither this nor SG's blog is the place for it. I'm sure Google can help you find what you're seeking.

Elisheva, it probably doesn't need to be said, but he's not speaking for the rest of your readers who come here for the interesting perspective of a Lakewood girl with a twist - keep up the great work!

1/18/2006 6:18 PM
Parsha Potpourri said...
And with that I'll take comment 100! Please don't make us wait until this post hits 200. :)

1/18/2006 6:20 PM
eli said...
ruh-Neb and the rest of you, get a life.. Whatever, Elisheva writes displays her brilliance and talent. And like she said if you have like ZERO class, find another blog

1/18/2006 7:05 PM
b.f.k.a.b.m.g.b. said...
pucker-up everybody, why are u all kissing up to a 19 year old girl?

"displays her brilliance and talent" - puh-leaze! (hey that rhymes with sleaze, how appropo) lets remember that the original idea of this post was to discuss "hush - hush" "under-the-cover-blush" jobs going on in "sem" it turns out that too many man got involved to allow that to happen comfortably. and remember it was her idea that all buchorim are oogle-ing her "boobies" . paints a kind of nice picture. how's THAT for class?

1/18/2006 7:15 PM
Elisheva said...
Ouch! What has happened here all of a sudden?? First of all like ruhcobGMB backwards is BMG Bachur. i hope it is not one and the same. I truly can't picture that.

Thnaks Parsha P and Eli for sticking up for me. Trust me I've gotten like e-mails from real nice boys and from the sickos, so I know there are both types and that he speaks only for himself and is type.

I don't remember saying that ALL bachurim are staring at certain parts of me, but if you are trying to imply that lots (or maybe most) don't, like every girl (and lots of guys) reading this will laugh at such an assertion. I never said mt blog was all about the stuff you wish it would be, but I did say I would also talk about that. Things that happen can be discussed, like why do they happen, how bad is it, solutions, etc. Stuff we normally can't discuss.

And this post is not about such stuff, partly, yes, because I realized my readership and do have enough class to respect that (sorry if you were hoping I would go on and discuss things more on my mind, you have to behave first and get me to like you before I'd do that). And like even this post which is not about this stuff has over 100 comments already. And Semgirl's last post got over 300 and mostly not about girl stuff, so obviously there are other boys with other things are their minds too besides our bodies. She totally writes better than me, and I don't deny that. Good for her. I will try to write what is on my mind and still respect my readers.

Thank you and Shalom

1/18/2006 10:31 PM
Chilled & Frum said...
All the talk about a married lady being an eishes ish aside, there is no comparison between a married lady flirting and a single girl.
I live in Lkwd, I am in BMG but also have a job and am normal not ultra-frum. My wife is pretty, ok? My friends are not blind and we all know they will catch a look. I am normal and some of their wives are pretty nice-looking too, and I will catch a look at them too.
You know something? We are all married, and we all know that, so it doesn't go any further because it can't. That is way different than before we were married. If my wife would flirt before we were married it could get pretty touchy. Right now she can push the limits, come on, who is anyone fooling, today's girls are not sweet, shtetl girls, she knows a guy is chapping a look and she can maybe like it and see how far she can take it. I know it, she knows it, we all know it. Who are we trying to fool? Today's BY girls are pure and holy? Are the bochurim pure and holy?
But it ends there, so how can you compare the fun of the little flirting with a sigle girl doing it which can go much further? Let's not fool anybody that we are a pure generation. We are not, our minds are full of sex and garbage, so if we are not going overboard, take it easy. I do it now, my friends do it, our wives do it, we all know it, who are we fooling?
When we were single? It was a whole different ball game.

1/19/2006 1:10 AM
geshmaker said...
i don't usually check out this blog, but decided to check it out today for some reason, it must be hashgava protis.

CHILLIN: you call yourself frum? what's frum about "chapping" looks at other peoples wives and not being embarrased that your own wife is playing to others.
get the hell out of BMG, you obviously don't belong there!

"Right now she can push the limits, come on, who is anyone fooling, today's girls are not sweet, shtetl girls, she knows a guy is chapping a look and she can maybe like it and see how far she can take it."
you have serious tznius issues on your hand, and heaven help you if you don't realze this.

"our minds are full of sex and garbage, so if we are not going overboard, take it easy"
take it easy?!? your whole post just went overboard. what ever happend to Busha? you can't be serious about this?
if you were single, the differance would be that she is a pnuiya and all all of you machshovos are just problems that can lead to BIG issurim. as apposed to now when she is an Aishes Ish flirting with other married men .

"You know something? We are all married, and we all know that, so it doesn't go any further because it can't"
because it CAN'T??????? says who?!? obviosly not the torah, or there wouldn't be any issurim with yichud and the like, because "IT" can't go anywere. why don't you talk to all the people who are divorced, or having MAJOR shalom bayis problems because "IT" "WENT" further!!
you wrote "and am normal not ultra-frum" i would say that you are far from normal in this regard, and ultra-frum is still a LONG WAY OFF!!!!!!!(try starting with basic-frum)
P.S. i hope your wife's "seeing how far she can take it" doesn't go too far one day! and if this is the state of lakewood today- "uch un vey".
in closing: you were right about there not being any comparison between single and married woman flirting. you just got the whole thing backwards!!!
(single girls- you can keep up the small (flirting) nuances, get it out of your systems, and not be much worse for wear. but married woman- save for flirting for evenings at home, at least that will lead to "BETTER" things not "she'ol tachtis"!!!

1/19/2006 12:39 PM
geshmaker said...
Oh, and also-
"My wife is pretty, ok? My friends are not blind and we all know they will catch a look. "
don't flatter yourself, unless she dresses like a total whore, noone is checking her out.

1/19/2006 12:59 PM
bmgbochur said...
ok I made a return only once. for now and that is to say that the pervert who wrote before with my name backwards is not me... I would never write like that and not even think like that..
thanks...

not sure when I will surface next so buy till then

1/19/2006 1:31 PM
bmgbochur said...
semgirl: I'm sorry but after reading the previous posts I don't think that I'm gona be visiting your blog again unless the discussion changes a lot.
elisheva I know its your blog, and you can write what you want, and its blog world,and anyone can write what they want, but we are all frum people, can't we use our senses and use clean language?
I know that my username isn't owned by me, and anyone can use any name, but for the sake of the guys in bmg, don't make us all look like perverts...
the guy ruhcobgmb, I doubt he learns here. as noone I know would ever write like that....
sorry if I said anything wrong, but I wrote my true feelings...

1/19/2006 1:41 PM
Elisheva said...
Okay, gosh, I am reeling and hurt and confused. I am not sure if I am right or wrong here.

It's one thing if the pervs come and talk sick, that I can handle, but seeing that BMG B, who I knew to have normal comments also feels that my blog is like too off, and I have heard this before once, I really must wonder if I am not wrong here.

So like am I a tzadekes? No way. I never like would even imply that. Do I think about boys, sensual things, marriage, and stuff I won't detail here? Yes I do. And I really think lots of normal teenagers do. (And not just teenagers too). Should everything you think be discussed? I guess not. But like aren't there things that are never talked about as if it doesn't exist, and it's all like a farce?

And if I am like really to blame for the kinds of comments people put here, why doesn't it bother the guys on all the blogs where girls hang it all out and worse? Is it only when you turn them down that like suddenly you are a prutza? Cause there totally are guys like that. They try to get you to touch, and worse, and when you turn them down they suddenly tell everyone how you are the most loose girl around. I was never with a guy like that, but i know of such instances.

Don't get me wrong. I have no doubts about certain things. That BMG B implies that BMG has no guys like the ones who comment badly here, is just not true. I dated, my friends dated. Yes there are nice guys, and there are guys obsessed with shmutz, girls etc. By obsessed I don't mean interested. All girls are interested in guys and guys in girls. I mean like they have zero control or awareness of where the limits are.

So they are around and in all yeshivos, that I know. But am I like making them come here? Is it somehow my fault? Am I much more prust than I thought I was? I didn't think so, but I'd hate to be that and keep being nichshal people. I wish there was someone I could talk to about this, but like obviously being anonymous and stuff it's kinda hard.

But I will admit I have to rethink this. Maybe I should just stop. Like I don't need this. I can live like I did before. I just thought it would be cool and nice to be able to discuss tonz of stuff both that you could and can't discuss in other forums. But like maybe I was pushing the limits? I'll have to think about it.

Shalom

1/19/2006 3:01 PM
bmgbochur said...
elisheva, I am so sorry if I hurt your feelings, I am writing this practicly crying for having written something that offended another jew.
you do have a right to write on your blog whatever you wanna write about, and yes I do like the idea to write about things that can't be talked about in a regular conversation. yes that is the reason I also started a blog, till I decided it was to risky for me to keep it going. it turned into a debate and name calling, and didn't discuss the topics I wanted to, and finaly when it died down and we all made up, I had to disapear.
yes elisheva please continue your blog, don't run away the way I did, I had to because someone realized who I was.
what you discuss, is such important topics that yes noone else, and no other blogs discuss (ok maybe semgirl a bit).
what I didn't like was the way ppl where making comments anonymosly, that are disgusting and I was hoping that you would just delete those comments...
yes every guy likes girls, hey we all do wanna get married. but a guy has to know his limits what he can say or write (elisheva I'm sure you know what I mean).
yes I'm sure there are a few low lifes in bmg, but I don't classify them as being in the yeshiva. should I classify the lakewood community as a whole city of kids at risk, because there are a few like that no...
when I was in mir yerushlayim, my cousin asked me: are you learning in mir (with a laugh) she said I used to hang out with so many mir guys... I answered her, there are people in mir and ppl who learn in mir, I learn there. I think the same can be said about BMG.
elisheva, please as a personal request, please continue blogging, all your comments are great, just delete the off the line ones.
thanks again. and I'm really sorry ;)

sg, I meant semstory not you. and what I meant again was the comments by others not by her.

1/19/2006 3:16 PM
Semgirl said...
Elisheva..I wholeheartedly concur with everything BMGB said.. PLEASE dont close your blog, you are my favorite blog of all. I always look forward to it..

We'll talk in private, K..

1/19/2006 4:30 PM
Anonymous said...
SemStory we all love your blog. Do not close it. I'm sure BMGBOCHUR doesn't want you to close it either.
And all other bloggers out there let's all come out and get her to continue.

1/19/2006 4:35 PM
t.b.f.k.a.b.m.g.b. said...
please don't stop posting!!!!!!!!!!! :P
you know when the girls write it i can take it. but when the guys are begging, it's kind of sad. yo guys! if you don't have em yet, go get a pair!

1/19/2006 4:51 PM
On The Derech said...
Elisheva,
I just recently started reading your blog. So recently, in fact, that i hadnt had a chance to comment yet. I definately enjoy your blog and I have lots to comment about. Please stick around to give me that oportunity! (And check out my blog. It's interesting coming from a girl like you who lived the life you couldnt/wouldnt/shouldnt)

To comment on this post, I think there are nice people and not nice people in EVERY culture and EVERY community and EVERY religoun. Being jewish doesnt change that, being from Boro Park doesnt change that. There are nice goyim in boro park and mean jews. It all depends on the individual.

And although i normaly agree with BMGBochur, i do have an issue with the fact that he comes off as such a frum and ehrliche bachur but at the same time, he's breaking lakewood rules by going online and What is the rule about "talking" to girls online? I'm not sure!
That is just my opinion. Not that i want to get rid of him, i enjoy his comments the most!

1/19/2006 5:38 PM
s.f. said...
(i commented some time ago not it seems to have not appeard sorry if it comes up twice,)about marreid women going all out, as a marreid men i would point out 3 things even though it is true the idea of pas bsalo,BUT 1there is still a huge diffrence between a sibgle in the respect that regardless of howmuch he thinks/looks/etc. he is surpreesd & he is pushing it all off for later, while once u get marreid its either u r getting it ALL or u r losing out 2 & also in the begining u r just plotzing from the preivous years & now that your time came u kindof want to just let go & let loose all your held back imaginations 3contrary to what many singles think marreidg is not about bedroom life its just 1 aspect of marreidge now with all other things going on, at times it may not have that easy free pleasure, that goes with flirting & moving on thats all fun so therfore it is that it can still be a nisyon for marreid ppl & couple that with #1 it can xplain y its worse then while they r single

1/19/2006 7:00 PM
ms. shtark said...
eli7 please don't close your blog. u are doing a great service to the overall klal. however, i also agree with bmgbochur that sicko comments should be erased. keep up the good work!

1/19/2006 7:51 PM
Anonymous said...
we miss you

1/20/2006 12:17 AM
Elisheva said...
Had a long night. Thanks for all the nice words. I know people have enjoyed my blog. My point was not that. Maybe I should just be like way more tough on deleting comments but that is like so not me. And also I can't always get on right away, and when I do I see it's like already this whole thing.

Okay, have some thoughts, but I hope I will have them like somewhat more in order later.

Shalom

1/20/2006 7:06 AM
Anonymous said...
happy to hear... we cant wait

1/20/2006 11:50 AM
Semgirl said...
How is your day going, Shev? While you are thinking..EMAIL...

1/20/2006 12:14 PM
~ Sarah ~ said...
just discovered your blog (along with a few others)...
wish i'd thought of having a blog when i was in sem!
guess it's not too late now though but it's taken a slightly different direction.
i understand things are hectic but really do try keep it up... it's nice to know that there are good people out there trying to spread the message to others of good middos and being a mentch.
good luck with everything :)

1/21/2006 8:11 AM
Jewboy said...
Elisheva,
There is no need to close your blog because of some people who say inappropriate things. Nothing you write is inappropriate. If they choose to be indecent, that's their problem and not yours. They win if you stop.

1/21/2006 8:41 PM
typically frum said...
shevy im waiting...

1/22/2006 1:08 PM
Anonymous said...
gosh you lakewooders have a mandate here anyone interested in starting a boro park blog??

1/22/2006 1:25 PM
s.f. said...
lol from your amount of comments u rposting may we guess that either the"takanos" r affactive or isit the intense peroidin your life intensifying g luck

1/23/2006 3:47 PM
Chilled & Frum said...
Seems like I got Gesh a little hot under the collar here. Sounds like a guilty conscious to me.
First off, Elisheva, it's the sickos with the comments who have a problem, not you. They choose your blog over others because you come across as sweet and nice and a guy who isn't man enough when it comes to a stronger woman, suddenly thinks he can let go when he doesn't feel threatened. I am not saying you aren't a strong woman, just that you give a sweet impression. If you would ignore these guys and keep doing what you like, you will show them how strong you are inside.
About Geshmaker's comments. Let's work backwards. "My wife is pretty, ok? My friends are not blind and we all know they will catch a look. "
don't flatter yourself, unless she dresses like a total whore, noone is checking her out.
Who is living in the world of make believe here? Normal men don't check out women unless they dress to show off? That is so laughable. WHy are there hundreds of sefarim on shmiras einayim if no one looks anyway? Or are they just because of the women who dress badly? Do you really think anyone thinks that because your frum or yeshivish you don't look?
you call yourself frum? what's frum about "chapping" looks at other peoples wives and not being embarrased that your own wife is playing to others.
get the hell out of BMG, you obviously don't belong there!
So someone who looks at ladies isn't frum? Did you ever daven without being michaven the first three brachos? Do you know how bad that is? Are you still frum? Did you ever say lashon hora? Are you still frum? I can go on and on. It's guys like you who mix up what we are supposed to be with trying to pretend that we are all there already and chalila no one yeshivish does any aveiros and especially with machshavos and ladies! Who do you guys think you are fooling? Are you not normal and need a doctor?
I never said it is good to flirt or to chap a look or show off. I said the fact you guys are embarrassed to admit that we still do these things even though we are not supposed to. Yes, we do, even guys in BMG. Ask any gadol how many guys in BMG don't chap a look at a lady even if she is not dressed to flirt. It isn't from the gedolim this make-believe-we-are-perfect yiddishkeit, it is krumkeit!
So yes, I am normal and I look, my friends are normal and they look, our wives are normal and it can get to them and they push the envelope. is that great? No. But like I said we are no great generation, we ARE filled with garbage and sex, and we do it. Yes, even you.
Are there stories about marriages where people went to far? I'm sure ther eare. There are stories for everything. But if you think that more married ladies go too far than single girls, you have no clue what is going on in the real world, and I'm sure Elisheva and Semgirl can confirm this. A married person has way more fright and restraint. People flirt, it's bad, so are lots of aveiros. We have to work on ourselves. I once mistakenly walked in when my wife's friend was nursing her baby. I am a normal human being and I thought about that many, many times since. Does that make me frei? Did I do anything with her? No. Does it make me love my wife less? No. Did it give me what to think about? It sure did. These things happen and we have to work on ourselves. But to pretend I already worked on it and never thought about it once after that is to fool myself which is the worse fooling of all.

1/23/2006 4:12 PM
Semgirl said...
c&f

Very well said, they dont call it fakewood for nothing. Most ppl men and women are pretending to be melochim in the bain-odom-lmokoms , while completely disregarding bain-odom-lchaveiros..

1/23/2006 8:59 PM
Anonymous said...
WHERE IS ELI7?

1/23/2006 9:03 PM
On The Derech said...
i completely agree with C&F, but i think SG is a little off.

Lakewood people as a majority dont try to fake you into thinking that they are malachim more than any other people! No normal person will admit their avairos to you! So if BMG guys are chapping a look at you while you walk down the street - while they are going to the 'best' yeshiva in the country, does that make them fakers? no, that makes them normal.

I dont publicize my avairos either. and if you meet me, you will probably think i'm a typical good girl. Does that make me a faker if i love gossip or i may wear a skirt that's a lil too short? No. That's what people are all about. And lakewood is no diferent.

1/24/2006 9:48 AM
typically frum said...
chevreh, check out my new blog:www.ayeshivabochursfantasies.blospot.com. come and enjoy.

1/24/2006 4:01 PM
Elisheva said...
Gosh, I never seem to get on when I want so I don't know if it's making any difference if I want to continue blogging anyway!

Okay, about this thing above, I just commented about it on TFs new blog. It seems Geshmaker commented there too. I would agree with SG and Derech. I think Geshmaker is like way off as far as reality is concerned. Derech is right that people just don't talk about it because it is embarassing, but like some get the wrong message as if it doesn't exist because it's not discussed. It does exist and is normal, but should not be like glorified I think.

Okay, about the blog. I did like loads of thinking and talked to someone I respect but had to be so roundabout because I don't think he would ever dream that I have a blog.

So what did I come up with? First of all, I don't think when I started my blog I had any idea what it would be. I admit that for me going online was like a naughty thing to do. I was so curious what is out there, and always thought it was just goyish or porn so it wouldn't interest me. Then I stumbled on these like hundreds of frum blogs and I admit we are sometimes so curious and horny and I read tonz of stuff some that I should have and some that I shouldn't have.

I also had things I wondered about and figured, hey, here is an anonymous way to see what other frum people think about things I would be way too embarrassed to ever bring up with anyone I knew. Or at least most people. Like, yes there was a crowd in sem and some girls I know here who talk about EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING, but I find it is mostly out of immaturity and I don't necessarily respect what they have to say and there is usually a certain slant to their opinions. I had no idea if it would be different here, but I figured I can try.

So okay, the blog maybe had a certain naughty, maybe slightly flirtatious slant because I guess I didn't come on to discuss the serious burning issues of klal yisroel.

But I don't think I did it without respect or went too far. Like anyone who is here is not like being exposed to anything shocking, and like nothing I spoke about is really shocking, just stuff we don't usually talk about in public. I didn't like ask anyone to give us a kallah class on my blog.

When I first came on, I had lots more time than I ended up having too, and I suddenly realized I sometimes couldn't even come on, and when I did comments were already flying and some maybe that did go too far. At the same time I was pleasantly surprised that there were actually many normal people who commented and also many very smart and caring comments. Yes there were the sick or way off ones too, but it was refreshing to hear a normal view about stuff I wondered about and the girls I knew until now who talked about it weren't as mature about it.

So where am I going with all this? I don't even know myself. I guess I realized that there were many male readers, though I originaly envisioned like a cool dormroom chat, I guess there is no mechitza here and I should have realized nothing is stopping men from coming on too. And I admit some have pretty smart and nice things to say also.

Also I realized that I do like writing and sharing opinions and there are many girls like me who are confused about more serious issues and maybe we should discuss those and not the silly naughty things we think about. Although I guess as silly as these things are, they are part of life, and I still do think about them and do like to discuss them. Maybe I am just a regular vaiberish yenta. Okay, but that's who I am.

About the issue of the comments, this guy I spoke to told me that a girl should not blame herself if a guy gets aroused from her. It is not always her fault, and like it is true that a girls has to be careful because she can sometimes cause it, even if she is perfectly regular a guy can still have nisyonos from her that are not her fault. I guess I can relate like a guy can sometimes be real charming and lay it on, and unless he is a dork who is so transparent, sometimes it can work and make me all giddy and silly. At the same time, sometimes a guy can just be there and have no clue that I even see him, and he is just you know, like that cute or cool look and I'll find my heart racing. So it can be either his fault or not. Like this guy I talk to is totally respectful and a serious but so normal guy and like I have such an embarrassing crush on him, he'd kill me if he knew probably, so it can be not a guy's fault, but also a guy can make it happen. And it seems this is like a way more serious issue by boys.

So I asked him how a girl can tell if it is her fault (I admit I stretched the truth, I told him a friend from school mentioned it that a guy was making off comments to her and she didn't think she was making him say it, but she isn't like the biggest neb, but also not a flirt, just a normal, friendly girl). He didn't really want to say about specifics, but he did say that a guy can think a girl thinks of him one way when really she totally doesn't intend to. But then when I mentioned like why would he make comments that would be insensitive and not too nice, he said if a guy is like that, it is surely his problem and not hers. I can't say I totally understand all this myself. I also wasn't really saying what the issue is, but I really trust this alot. So I would think that although I admit I do at times flirt, I think the real disgusting comments that so bothered me and mostly bothered me that people seemed to think maybe I was causing, I think those people who make them have problems and I shouldn't beat myself over them. I will try to be on and delete them when I can.

I don't even know why I wrote all this or why this whole thing bothered me so much. But I guess I am not what everyone thinks I am. I am still from a sheltered background and try to be a nice BY girl and on the other hand have that other, curious, daring, naughty side to me so I am confused by some things and I really don't know what I want sometimes.

In a way this bothers me too. Like why is it so embarrassing to discuss such things openly? Why do I not feel comfortable enough to discuss this with any one of my teachers, some of who were pretty good. Still I feel like this is just a red line. Or maybe it's just me, and other girls have no such problems opening up to teachers about this. Like even this guy I talk to, is so practical and I think does talk to guys in yeshiva, and he would so understand this, he even writes the cutest and funniest stuff so he would so understand my blog, but I would die before I showed a frum kollel guy my blog. But maybe that is for the best because if there would be no busha, we would do much worse things when these silly impulses strike us and now we have that control. So like in a way, maybe it is good we really don't discuss these things openly, like it's good that we don't totally make it not embarrassing and normal. But still, so where can I? So for me, the blog is still my place to go on about my silly questions or more serious issues.

I am so thankful for those who commented positively about my blog. If you don't enjoy it or think I am like rambling imbecillic thoughts, by all means, don't bother with this site.

Hope I like got across my feelings, or at least my confusions. I will try to post something soon.

Shalom.

1/24/2006 6:30 PM
bmgbochur said...
wow,
wow,
and
wow,

what you just wrote is so true, wow.
I'm so happy that you came back, and hope to read your posts and comments.
you are not the one that I had a blame on.

welcome back,

BB

1/24/2006 9:07 PM
Scraps said...
I'll echo what bmgbochur said.

You speak the truth.

*thumbs-up*

1/25/2006 11:04 AM
On The Derech said...
Elisheva,
I completely respect you! You speak so truthfuly. There should be a private place for all "good" girls like you who are curious/daring/naughty to talk and get others opinions without having to 'expose' their naughtiness to their 'real life' friends!

This is a wonderful outlet for you and i hope we can all give you advice/inspiration/plain fun without the sickos who turn you off ruining the beauty that is blogworld!

Keep it up!!

1/25/2006 12:20 PM
Semgirl said...
OTD, A few months ago I suggested the possibility of an all girls blog. I am still exploring the idea of it being password protected.

1/25/2006 2:51 PM
Elisheva said...
Thanks everyone.

I can just picture it

"The only blog with a Mechitza!"

Great idea SemGirl!

Shalom

1/25/2006 4:01 PM
typically frum said...
keep up the good work. any guy who's surfing the web to pleasure himself might as well be on your blog, it's cleaner than any XXX site.
all these guys that kvetch so much are just trying to let out their frustration on you, trying to blame you for the bulge in their pants.

1/25/2006 5:44 PM
Elisheva said...
I'm not exactly sure that that's a compliment... Oh well. I think I get what you're saying.

Also I do IY"H plan on posting soon with some news.

Shalom

1/25/2006 5:59 PM
typically frum said...
good night.tty tomorrow.or tonight?

1/25/2006 6:02 PM
Josh said...
Eli - I know it seems like I've neglected your blog, but I've been reading the whole time, just waiting for an opportunity to comment. I hope you'll understand if I respond to a whole bunch of stuff now.

Your long comment on how you had to reconsider your whole blogging existence was an incredibly deep piece (could have been its own post!). Everyone has to judge for themselves whether they are gaining or losing from any given decision on their own, so I hope you'll ignore all the mishugas and do what you think is right.

As far as the content of your blog, I have always felt that you should write whatever is on your mind. There is no need to tailor your posts to your audience. If you want to write about girl stuff, enjoy. The blog is for you. If that means guys won't enjoy it, then they can go elsewhere. If that means that guys will enjoy it too much, well they can go elsewhere anyways. The blogosphere is where you can let loose, and don't give that up!

You have always written respectfully and maturely, and I'd hate for you to sacrifice such an open opportunity for you to discover yourself. We have certainly learned a lot from your insights.

Finally, Also I do IY"H plan on posting soon with some news.

Am I the only one that got the chills? Does that mean what I think it means? Are you going to pull an AnySara on us?

1/25/2006 9:06 PM
ms. shtark said...
hey there elisheva, nice piece. you are very eloquent and possess extraordinary literary skills, far better than a lot of lakewood ppl that i know!
and semgirl, i love the idea of an all girls blog!!!

1/25/2006 10:22 PM
bmgbochur said...
ms. shtark:
"far better than a lot of lakewood ppl that i know!"
I take that as a personal insult...
ok I'm not a lakewood person, or maybe I am?
sorry if I come across like a dwork (geshmaker will say I am!) but I know how to spell and I do know how to use grammer correctly. (that is while using spell check, of course)
an all girls blog? if you want me to leave ill leave even before you make an all girls blog, but seriously I think its a great idea, the only question is how to know who anyone is??? maybe by invite only???

BB

1/25/2006 11:01 PM
FrumGirl said...
Is it too late to post a comment? I thought your topic was pretty much on the money. Judging by the amount of people you reach, maybe someone out there that needed to internalize this has learned something.... I really like your style. Looking forward to a girl only blog, lol.

1/25/2006 11:30 PM
ms. shtark said...
ummm bmg b, i was not talking to you. you are not from lw. and i just realized that i also spelled stuff wrong like posessed. i am not perfect either. it is just that every single bingle bmg guy that i dated, i mentally correct their grammar in my head. i never tell them directly because i don't want to embarass them but it irks me. they try to sound all worldly by using 'fancy' language, but like hellooooo... like try again?
and yes an all girls blog would be great because then we can discuss our deep dark secrets and not have to worry about being tznius becaus some guy will check it but like the singles meeting, this is also an idea that just wont happen

1/25/2006 11:46 PM
bmgbochur said...
"Like the singles meeting, this is also an idea that just wont happen"
ms. shtark, please be an optimist. always look at the bright side.
say "iyh it will happen, just don't know well"
doesn't that change it a bit??? doesn't it sound more positive???
or maybe heck with being positive, say it to the point...

honestly I think the singles thing "might" happen.:)

good night

1/25/2006 11:53 PM
BZMGBIG said...
if you make an all girls blog will bmgbochur get the passsword?

1/26/2006 12:08 AM
bmgbochur said...
BZMGBIG, sorry but I highly doubt I would have / get the password
and honestly speaking if its only for girls, why would I want to be there? they would probally/maybe be speaking about things that guys/bochurim should hear.
ever thought of that??? (i don't need an answer.)

1/26/2006 12:17 AM
Thoroughly Teased said...
"and yes an all girls blog would be great because then we can discuss our deep dark secrets and not have to worry about being tznius becaus some guy will check

Ms. Stark. You're killing us guys. You and LE7 and SG and all the others keep making these comments like who knows what really goes on that we don't know about. Do me a favor (and all the other guys out there), tell me you were just teasing, right? It's not like you frum girls are really a bunch of wild, sensual party girls when no one is looking? Or are you?

1/26/2006 12:34 AM
Mata Hari said...
question - why are you the one who has to correct your brothers and teach them midos? what about your parents...what's their attitude. don't you think a lot of this (learning about midos, manners, how to treat people) comes from the home?

1/26/2006 7:15 AM
BZMGBIG said...
i just assumed they would need someone to agree with everything they say. and put in insightful comments like:
"wow,
wow,
and
wow,

what you just wrote is so true, wow."

that might just be the most virile comment ever posted on a blog in the history of bloggery.
do you see now why u belong in a girls only bog?

1/26/2006 10:50 AM
ms. shtark said...
oh my gosh, everyone just chill out! newsflash, this all girls blog aint happening so fast. if we really want to share something, we can just email privately so drop it. there is like way too much testosterone going on here. i think i will let everyone calm down for a while.

1/26/2006 1:42 PM
Elisheva said...
Ms. Stark you are right. Did they never hear of e-mail? And Mati I just feel I need to mention that actually I credit all my middos to my parents. One thing they were strong about is that you have to be a mentch. Much as I disagree with a lot of the things they do, this is one thing they always stressed.

I hope to post something ni a few minutes.

Shalom

1/26/2006 3:06 PM