Hi everyone and welcome to my blog! I am overwhelmed by all the comments and ideas that you all so kindly share, and I hope to continue deserving more of the same. Doing this blog has been a great thing for me, and I learn from each and every one of you. (Though sometimes I learn what to do, and sometimes I may learn what not to do, lol!)Being that we are coming up on Tu B’av, a day when all people – at least those in my age group and place in life – think about shidduchim, I wanted to discuss a particular shidduch issue. I recently returned from spending a year in seminary in Israel. Many of you may have been there too, perhaps for a year or even longer. Or maybe you just know someone who did, or just heard of what goes on.It is quite common, being that there are loads of young girls and boys spending time in Israel, for shidduchim to get set up. I am not getting into whether the shidduch was set up by a real ‘shadchan’ (whatever that is), by someone who had the couple in their house for a meal, or if it just ‘happened’. My issue is about whether the shidduch date is really that, or is it a joke.A joke? Well according to what I have heard from some guys in e-mails since I have been online, all us girls who thought we were going out on dates in Israel, have really been duped. Like, I guess we were going on a date, that’s for sure. But the claim is that for the boys the whole thing is one big joke, and marriage is the farthest thing from their mind at that point.So let me start at the beginning. I had mentioned something about dating guys in Israel, and this guy sends me an e-mail. Here is part if it (with his kind permission):
Elisheva, trust me! I’ve been there, done that, all that kinda stuff. For the guys it’s one big joke. I know from myself. I ate a meal by my cousin. She thinks she’s this big shadchan cause she just got married. She has this girl who eats by her and she shows her to me and asks what I think. Elisheva I’ll tell you what I really thought. Man that chick looks cute! A shidduch? Ha, I won’t be dating till I’m back in America. No one does. But you know what I told her Elisheva? I said Sure I’ll try it out. She looks nice. Maybe it’s bashert! And the poor girl thinks this is a date, and like nebich she gets all ready and calls her parents and it’s this whole shindig, cause she has a Real date! Right? Wrong! I had fun. We went places. She was real nice company. And pretty too. And at the end, I just told my cousin I don’t think it’s bashert, we’ll try again. End of story except the poor girl had her dreams high and all expectant and all that and it was nothing. Elisheva I am not proud of my behavior. It was immature and selfish. But we all did it. Trust me. I am not speaking for myself. My friends “Dated” and we’d talk about it in the dira, compare the girls, who had a better time, where to go. But no one was serious about the whole thing. The guy goes on my friends. For his sake I will say he really sounds like he feels terrible. He says he was haunted years later, especially after he got married and looked at a girl like a human being (why it took him until then…) and he realized how mean it must have been to the girl. How heartless. How cruel.I was totally shocked by this e-mail. I don’t have lots of people to ask, but the little I was able to get out of others in a roundabout way, it seems like maybe this guy is not way off. I mean, like I personally feel a bit sheepish. Like I dated in Israel too. One was a total flop; one went pretty well but just didn’t end up right. Now I wonder. Was I being had? Is it true that the boys only think about shidduchim after they will come back to Lakewood, get their chavrusos and then they’re ready? So like the whole dating in Israel was just for fun?I won’t deny that it’s fun to have fun too. I met some boys here and there where we knew this was no shidduch date, but just, I guess, fun. But it’s nice to know when it is and when it isn’t. Girl definitely put lots of emotional energy into a real shidduch date. It can be draining. Phone calls are made, people are contacted, and we make an effort to get dressed nicely.One friend whom I asked told me so what. (She did not spend the year in Israel, so this is from a different perspective.) She is like a date is a date is a date. Even if the guy isn’t serious, if he falls for her, it’ll end up happening. Who cares if he was serious? They are dating and that is real.I get what she is saying, but something still seems wrong. So I’m asking you your opinions. First of all is this true? Do you know anyone who got engaged from dating while studying in Israel (because I thought of it and I don’t)? I don’t mean a girl who went to Israel to see a guy. That is much more serious and I know two such shidduchim that happened that way. I am talking about a girl and a guy both in Israel who are introduced and meet and she thinks now it is a shidduch date. Were you ever on either side of that? What are your impressions? And if the guy isn’t serious, do you think it’s okay for him to go ahead anyway, because maybe he’ll ‘fall’ for her and it’ll happen anyway?I’d love to hear your opinions.Until then, Shalom,Elisheva
posted by Elisheva @ 10:54 PM
69 Comments:
Semgirl said...
Hey, no fair you beat me.. Now the pressure is on for me to post.I have mixed emotions, OTOH, it is mean to the girl, to just go out and have fun and mislead her.But on the other, you never know. My mother just ended a 15 month rel-ship and wasnt in the mood. My father called her and she just felt bad that he spent hours on the phone with her, so she said, ok.In the beginning she made it very clear she isn't looking for something very serious right now. But he persisted and persisted, long story short they got married 4 months later, and eventually I came along.
12:00 AM
The Chainik Hocker said...
How "eventually"?I kid, I kid. Sorry.Anyway, my feeling is 1) if the guy is not serious to begin with he probobly won't get serious no matter what, and 2) like the Lotto says, hey, you never know.Just covering my bases.Hope your fast was good.
12:56 AM
The Jewropean said...
Elisheva,You should be aware that young American Charedim whose families are back in the US will try out things they can't do at home, including casual dating. I'd say i't not impossible to get married to someone you meet through this, but it's much less probably than in a proper shidduch.
1:52 AM
Josh said...
I come from a different background, so I can't comment on what people in your sem/yeshivos think. In my world, the people that dated during their year in Israel (guys and girls) weren't under any illusions of marriage. They were either in a relationship for the short term emotional (self esteem, popularity, etc) or physical (enough said) benefits. But my Yeshiva (the "old" Hakotel-different story) also discouraged dating in Israel. Bottom line, as I think CJ mentioned in an earlier post, getting into a relationship can be a terrible drain and distraction from learning. We only go to Israel once to grow. If we spend it chasing the opposite sex, we won't get anything out of it.Another problem with dating in Israel, in any type of religious community, is that we're just too young. I have nothing against getting married young, but as people we are so undeveloped. We haven't decided who we want to be yet. It takes some actual life experience to decide this. If we lock in with a spouse when we're 18 or 19, that can lead to much unhappiness when we realize we were immature back then, and didn't know what we wanted. Again, that's not to say that many people won't be happy if they are mature at that age. But I think the behavior that Elisheva is discussing is a symptom of the immaturity that most people retain after High School.As always, Elisheva, great topic. I know they'll be lots of different opinions on this one.
9:41 AM
NormalJew said...
I think you are right about boys in Israel totally not being interested in "dating" but having some fun! BUT, what is wrong with that?The frum society is so hellbent on curtailing "fun" for boys and girls, that if it isnt for "marriage" purposes then it is caled misleading!!Nothing wrong with having some fun!!If you dont get the "fun" out of your system now, it will haunt you for the rest of your life and you will end up haing forbidden "fun" down the line!Peace!NJ from NJ
9:50 AM
Halfnutcase said...
somehow i don't think i'd ever misslead someone like that. or date until i thought i was ready. but then on i tend to put as much (or nearly either way it's really bad enough) emotional energy in to it as a girl might so, while i wouldn't ever do such a thing, i wouldn't say other boys don't. infact I know they really do, and do quite alot.and at least from my point of view, no it isn't ok. for him to date anyway with out telling her. isn't in ganevas da'as?
10:03 AM
David said...
"We all did it"..What's that supposed to mean?I don't know what kind of Yeshiva this guy went to..but peeking at girls and fantasizing..is one thing..setting up dates just to hang out is a little too far...and is certainly not common.David
11:09 AM
Elster said...
My thoughts on the issue aside, I don't see how you can put much stock into your friend's email. First off, he comes off like a jerk. Second of all, he doesn't sound all that repentant today. he sounds like he's proud of what he's done.So I would get yourself a better starting point with which to assert a position.
12:46 PM
Halfnutcase said...
elster, she is right, and she also said that from the rest of the post that there was mire to the letter but it got cut off for what ever reason. and that the rest sounded truely repentant.trust me these things happen regularly. i've not ever gone on a date but i've heard enough talk about it to understand this is the way it is, and by inlarge the girls arent that much diffrent alot of the time. there are all kinds.
12:54 PM
Elster said...
HNC: I do not necessarily disagree. You will note that I said that I am not posting my opoinion right now. Rather, that the guy comes off as a jerk.
1:12 PM
Daniel said...
I dated a little bit in Israel and it was a big mistake. The biggest problem is that Yeshiva / Sem life is not normal. Meaning, it is a year or two away from the distractions of parents, materialism, and other things that pull us away from living ideal lives. when a person knows they will be going "home" after the year, I think they should wait. They might be diferent in the real world compared to the ideal yeshiva world. Another idea is that while in Sem some girls get "brainwashed" and it sometimes takes a little while till they are able to think for themselves. No I am not bashing "frummies." Life is diferent when one has to make choices without the constant supervision / guidance of teachers. I wouldn't have married my wife while she was in sem (Michlala Jerusalem) six months later (right after Tu B'Av) we got engaged. JMHO
1:25 PM
Elisheva said...
Wow! So many opinions. Guess that's expected.Elster: I didn't put that much stock in the guy at first, but he did give specifics, which I wouldn't quote for obvious reasons, which led me to inquire and find out that it seems he is on to some truth.Obviously NormalJew and HNC seem to think so too, while David does not. So maybe it depends on the crowd.NormalJew, I understand about having fun, and getting stuff out of your system, tho I don't know if that's right considering there are many who make a solid case otherwise (Like R' Orlofsky etc.) But I also definitely see your point of maybe they just need to get it out of their system, but maybe it just them want more? The point is that is a seperate discussion. I am talking about going for fun, but making the girl think it's a real serious shidduch thing.Josh, I think what you said about immaturity is very true. I won't say I didn't want/have some fun too, and still do, and it's is probably somewhat immature, but that's who we are. We are young with raging hormones, and we have to somehoe deal with it, and i don't know of any great foolproof way.Shalom for now.
1:26 PM
Halfnutcase said...
wouldn't be that much of a mitzvah if we didn't.
1:29 PM
Elster said...
Obviously, it helps if everyone is on the same page. If girl is going for tachlis and guy is going for fun (or vice versa, let's not kid ourselves) someone will gt hurt. or could get hurt. Obviously, that is bad.I have a different take. I don't come from a community where people got married at 18, 19 20. I am against this. I may have posted about this in my blog in the past (and certainly have made comments on others) but I think people don't really fogure out who they are yet at such a young age. Getting married stunts your development - not that that is all bad, but it is 100% true. You are no longer your own person but a UNIT. Thus, to ME, losing your individuality at a young age will make you a different person than who you might have bveen.
1:54 PM
Tova said...
I don't think it's right to date anyone, anywhere, until you're actually ready to be a responsible adult and get married. Doesn't matter if you're in Israel or in Brooklyn College...if you're not ready, don't waste other people's time unless you tell them, "I'm just going out to have fun."I have a few friends who started dating because it was the "right time," not because they were ready, and not all of them are thrilled. They said, "What are the chances it'll be the first one?" Well, they married the "first one." My thinking is, if he's the right one, he'll be there when you realize you're ready for him, not when society tells you "You're 18, date and get married."So basically, wait till you're really ready.
2:08 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Veering away a bit from the "real" issue of your post... and commenting mostly on the comments:Having "fun" within the parameters of halacha - what's wrong with that? Oh, but WHAT IS IT and WHERE do we draw the line? Hmmm.I think, if "fun" was "permitted" halachacially - then A: the "teenage thrill of it" would mostly be gone and/or B: "fun" would have to mean/reach a whole new level.So, making the minor things "illegal" sort of creates a situation where the thrill is having almost all-kosher (halachically) "fun".I, come from an extremely sheltered background (read: ultra-ultra orthodox/yeah, chassidic) in the boy/girl sense. Yet I had "fun" - mostly thru my friends/neighbors escapades - including a collective crush on a neighbors cute cousin (and our idiotic actions because of it sometimes)...as well as reading all about all kinds of "fun" - from novels/to chumash :) But that's where it pretty much stopped. (now you don't think I will admit to EVERYTHING here, do you?) THAT was the ultimate "forbidden" fun.I don't remember at what point I "matured" and realized - hey - you are going to be able to have FUN FUN FUN in just a few short years...with your one and only... husband. Meantime, you can learn some tricks, and look around "for" then... fantasize, watch other people do crazy unhalachic stuff (and learn:) - but you STAY AWAY from that, save it for later... etc. etc. Which b"h did work for me. Could've not - that's true. Could've been swept along with the tide... (Scary - as I think of my almost 10 year old daughter starting her own perilous teenage journey very soon)And I really still carry that held-back teenage spirit in me - and try to translate that into a great relationship with my hubby. (Sidenote: One good side-effect of our chassidic shidduch system of mimimal "dating" (sit-in, yes) at least for me - is that for the first year of marriage I felt like I was "dating" and having so much FUN with it - no pressure at the backend... Don't know if I would recommend this shidduch system as the ideal one - but I was lucky to "fall in" with a great guy - OR my parents did great research - whichever way you want to look at it)So going back to the point I started rambling about, I think "behind the back "kosher" fun is okay... but acknowledge that there is SOOOO much risk involved, its scary. I've seen more than one friend crossing a line that she really regretted later on.To add my opinion to the "original" issue Elishava raised - I think that "dating" has to "mean" the same for both involved... either both "serious for a tachlis" kind of dating... or both "lets have fun and while we're at it, ya never know" kind of dating. I would say it is dishonest to not be upfront about it.
2:12 PM
Halfnutcase said...
i have my own complaints about people pulling other peoples strings whether knowingly or not.
3:23 PM
EN said...
To put my input for whatever it is worth...I dated girls when I was in yeshiva in Israel. If you would ask me then I would tell you I was serious about getting married. Looking back, I know that I was very immature. Humans learn from mistakes. If a girl is going out in Israel I would suggest she doesn't take it so seriously at first and go into it skeptical, meaning go with an open mind. If it works out, great. I don't see any issurim involved in "dating" if done properly if there is a slight, no matter how small amount, even 35%, chance it might work. Guys and girls in shidduch dating don't touch each other, they only talk and look, which for normal people who are not Tzadikim gemurim, is not an issur bechlal. I had zero contact with any girls before shidduchim, I had no clue as what it meant. The failed dates helped me achive experience to reach a point when I can reach a goal to honor one single girl who will be my wife. Practice makes perfect. I feel bad for the girls who really were expecting something great and then were dissapointed. However this is reality. I meant no harm. Does it make sense to suggest a guy shouldn't go out in Israel until he is perfect? There is no such thing. Guys are born jerks and need to be helped by females to reach humanity. Shidduchim is part of that process and girls should be aware. You never know the one that might click. Girls shouldn't go into shidduchim with much expectations. Feel it out.
4:50 PM
David said...
Turquoise...Very true
4:57 PM
Josh said...
En - Very interesting perspective.I think everybody will agree that it's wrong to not be open with the Shadchan/girl/guy about your frame of mind. It's more the issues of 1) when is a person "ready" to date, and 2) is it good for a religious Jew to date if not for marriage.
7:18 PM
The Tailor said...
I agree with Tova and Josh. I don't think it matters so much the age or location, unfortunately people date all the time who aren't truly committed to actually getting married. That is fine, but you should make your intention known so the other person has the information they need to make decisions.Regardless of background, if you are putting your heart on the line and that is what happens with tachlis dating, it is fair to expect the same in return and if you don't get that, it can feel bad.
8:29 PM
Josh said...
L7 - Sorry I didn't pick up on this earlier, but when you said, "We are young with raging hormones, and we have to somehoe deal with it, and i don't know of any great foolproof way," were you suggesting that marriage is a release for your hormones? I mean, it is. But it isn't the only part of marriage. Obviously, religious Jews will want to get married earlier in order to have this Kosher outlet available for their hormones. But if somebody isn't prepared to deal with everything else that comes with marriage, then they have to find another way of dealing with their hormones. The only thing that marrying for the physical will accomplish is increasing the Orthodox divorce rate.
9:34 PM
Elisheva said...
Oh my! So many thoughful comments! Where to begin?Lets work backwards. First of all Josh, "L7" cute! Of course marriage isn't all about taking care of raging hormones, but I sure hope that is a VERY BIG part of it. Like you said, if someone isn't ready, or hasn't found the right person, marriage will just make things worse, and a different way to solve hormone problems (lol) must be found. That's like exactly the problem I was saying I have yet to hear of a good way to solve.EN - Very interesting. Like you're saying that at the time you thought it was serious, but looking back it was like playing the dating game. OK, so I feel a drop better, lol. And it sounds like alot of ppl agree with you that even so it is good to date as long as both sides understand, cause like who knows what might happen. But like if we are young and stupid at that point, what if we 'fall' for each other and make a big mistake getting married? Or should we wait, like Tova said, no matter what, until we are good and ready before we date ANYTHING! (Gosh, but that is SO hard. But maybe we should be mature and do the difficult thing...)Turquoiseblue: Wow, like that is SO much to think about, and so nicely written. So besides making us ALL curious (so not fair!), you say you had the same raging hormones, and flirting a bit for release, but knew your limits, and waited for marriage for all the bliss. Am I right?So like first of all, as you say, you were lucky. Some people have to wait longer than others. Obviously your marriage partner has to have it, and B"H yours does (wow, and chassidish!). This is a separate issue. Like if we can't talk about this stuff and aren't supposed to even flirt with a date, so like how do you know if he is like normal in this stuff besides everything else? Like no shadchan ever told me the guy will be wild in bed, nor was I asked if i intend to be (for the record, I do!)But you are right, that if we push the limits, we have to be mature and watch out. Like tonz of ppl definitely get pretty messed up doing stupid things in this crazy period of waiting with wild hormones raging. And I totally understand them. It just gets SO hard! But I guess we gotta wait, don't we?Elster and the others who say not to get married young: I totally see your point, but like as I just said, it is hard enough to make ppl wait, maybe it is a good thing to just find someone and get married rather that wait for our 'complete development'. And it is definitely done by many with great success. There are divorces and unhappy marriages probably by both those who get married young and those who don't.Daniel: Nice comments, just one thing. Having been there, I think 'brainwashing' is a strong term. It is easy to call things that, but I doubt it is true. Let's just call it 'getting a bit carried away'.Everyone else, thanks for the comments and shalom.
10:10 PM
Duude said...
Hi Elisheva, nice blog!Just my two cents, I know I'm butting into a converstaion here, I don't know about you, but I have alot of friends in Israel, true most of them are boys, I happen to be going for yeshiva next year. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, most of the "dating" that goes on between guys and girls, is either relationships from before, or things that started there, mostly what happens is, people meet in town, or someplace like that. My point is, that if it weren't going both way's, meaning that the girl would want something like that too, it wouldn't happen, why would you be going to town? if not to hang out? It doesnt happen to often that guys go out on dates where the girl thinks it's a shidduch, after all let me be open here, if the guy went out on a girl for no reason, just to chill with her, (I don't think he'd be getting anywhere physically) so what's the point? He's not in it for the real reasons, right? What it boils down to is, how mature is the person, the immature guy, will always be lookin for another score, physically i'm talking, and if it's a mature person, then he's looking for a serious relationship, if it weren't for the future (i.e. marriage) then there wouldn't be a reason, would there? YEA, us guys also have hearts, and they also get broken...Duude
11:19 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Elisheva - I'll work my way backwards... (your "reply" comment is even more loaded than mine - how did ya manage thaat?)Okay - so on this:>>>>Elster and the others who say not to get married young: I totally see your point, but like as I just said, it is hard enough to make ppl wait, maybe it is a good thing to just find someone and get married rather that wait for our 'complete development'. And it is definitely done by many with great success. There are divorces and unhappy marriages probably by both those who get married young and those who don't.<<<<<
NeedsaBlowJob said...
Just so you all know, I'm chasidish too, and let me tell you, TBlue is in the minority.In the minority that is, in having all the fun after marriage, and finding the right one 2.many of us never get to have all that much fun....As for getting married young, I still think that is a lot better than being single till 32 or forever. The shiduch crisis in your side of the world is only getting worse.
11:49 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Oy, me and my lange megilla's...
11:54 PM
turquoiseblue said...
NEEDS - that wasn't the point really ya know... Although there is "some" truth to what your saying - in marriage, and in life - No matter which "circle" you belong to - chassidish/yeshivish/litvish/mo/no or otherwise - ultimately, "You make the bed you sleep in".(pun intended)
12:32 AM
Jew Speak said...
I have been learning in Israel for awhile now and have seen many wonderful people get married after dating here. I am in the dating scene in Israel and am not aware of any non-serious dating. Can I ask if this type of dating exists only in the more modern circles?I think it would be really easy to detect a non-serious person. I don't think it is fair for someone to go on the scene if they are not ready to potentially make that commitment.
1:04 AM
Hoezentragerin said...
TB, I think needsalife is on to something here. You're right to a point.Except, not always do you get very matchy betgevant, you know....Especially not when it is the way it is in our circles, parents look for what pases them and the street way more than what their children really need. You can't truly love someone you almost wouldn't even like.As for the fun stuff....Yeh, not that easy to "make your bed" when Chaim lieb Katz is telling your husband how to/ or how not to make his..........
1:36 AM
Michael said...
Like Josh, I think that L-7's (lol) line about "raging hormones" is not a valid reason to start dating or to get married early. A weak person would act on that reason. But, b"H, we each have the strength (maybe it's deeper down for one person than for another but I do believe we each have it) to withstand the nisayon, as difficult as it is. It's a HUGE nisayon, especially if you really like the person and you're together for a while (the longer you're together, the more difficult it becomes). But "no pain, no gain" and the longer you go without negia I think actually it draws you closer. Unless you're willing to "go all the way," no amount of negia will be enough and that's a slippery slope to travel on. I think that if you value the Torah and what the Torah has to say about it, you'll keep the halacha. And if you value the kedusha in the relationship, you wouldn't dare touch her/him because you know that once you do that, you've lost something special. You've lost the shechina resting with the two of you. Lastly, if it's "the right one" you should both be committed to keeping it so if either of you break it, you'd really be letting down two people, not just one, for an impulse and for something that, if it works out, you'll have forever. Is it really worth your olam habah for a touch? And if it doesn't work out, how would you feel knowing that your wife wasn't the first girl/guy you touched? On a personal note, my last girlfriend (more on topic of the post, I'll admit that I've only dated for tachlis) it went pretty far but in the end we realized there were fatal issues. But along the way she actually said she thought it was so hard and felt bad that guys have to fight harder than girls do though she was with me in the struggle and said that if there's anything she could do to make it easier I should tell her. Obviously it's impossible and that only made me like her and want to be with her more. But it was really mechazek me because it wasn't a one-person fight anymore, it was the two of us struggling together. And together, two people can do incredible things.L-7 said that "if we can't talk about this stuff and aren't supposed to even flirt with a date, so like how do you know if he is like normal in this stuff besides everything else?" I think that you can tell what kind of person, how passionate they are about you and life in general as you get to know them. Like my last gf, for example (wow, getting too personal?), was always so affectionate with her sisters and friends etc. it was easy to see that she'd bring that (and probably more) to marriage. Though I can only speculate because I'm still single, I think there are ways to see through things so that you have an idea of what the person's like. And, to an extent, you can flirt a little bit once things get beyond the awkward stage. In short, you can get a pretty good idea.But my point is that the raging hormones should not be the reason to jump into the dating scene. So many married people have told me that, and maybe TBlue will disagree, after a few years of marriage the spark just isn't the same. There's more responsibility, more stress, less time, less energy etc. And that's not even getting into the inherent differences between men and women that can lead to arguments that don't exactly lead to the most loving feelings. They're bound to happen in marriage, unlike when you're dating when everything is usually dreamy and perfect and both people are feeling so content and full. And there's more to a person than their physical body. What if, chas v'shalom, your spouse got into a car accident during sheva brachos? If [s]he was crippled for the rest of his/her life, would you still love her or would the lack of physicality kill the relationship? Be honest with yourself and make sure that you really like the person for the right reason. As L-7 said, it's not al about raging hormones but while it is a big part of it, it shouldn't cloud your judgement (I know, easier said than done).As a side note, I once was friends with a guy whose rebbi told him that the Torah is not meant to be too-difficult and that if a guy's really struggling (this, obviously, has to be defined more precisely) there might be halachically acceptable ways of "dealing with it." It's not something I've ever heard but maybe others have?I also think that while it might not be a great idea to get married at 18/19/20 because you're too immature and have so much before you, it's better to get married young than older because once you're older you've been living on your own for a while and are set in who you are, what you're looking for, where you want to go, and how you're getting there. This is in stark contrast to a younger person who's usually more flexible and open to change because it's still early in their lives and they can accommodate change. And, like TBlue, I think that the change that you go through together with your zivug is for the best. You're with the person you were destined to be with and you wouldn't be able to grow in the proper way without him/her. [S]He is your "ezer k'negdo" and so whatever you might have been able to accomplish without him/her is not nearly as much as you can accomplish with someone who compliments your qualities, helps you develop further etc.TBlue-did you go for "marriage counseling" before you got married? It doesn't seem so common, at least in my circle.Was this too long???
2:06 AM
Elisheva said...
Whew! Now after catching by breath... lol, it's OK Michael, as long as you have what to say, keep going.But Michael, wow! great stuff. Like real down-to-earth, realistic, and mature. (I HATE that! Lol) I guess you are tight about most stuff. But like that's a big question. How far do you have to go to lose your olam habah? Cause there will be SOME interaction with the opposite sex, and some is probably needed to check him/her out. So what EXACTLY are the limits, or is it each person acording to when it is too much for her?This is all besides the point that sure you are right, but like, yes, this is WAY easier said than done. Like SemGirl said in her latest post (semgirl.blogspot.com - sorry don't know how to put a link in a comment, anyone?) lots of stuff happen in sem and i'm sure with boys too, that makes you just say, gosh, I need a boyfriend bad! We are born with these feelings, and while I am not justifying marriage because of them (chas veshalom) or doing any other things, these are like the hardest nisyonos. I can say from my own life and it is obvious to anyone checking the blogs for even a short time.That is VERY intereting what you said from your friends Rebbi. If anyone know what it's all about, like please let us know, lol!JewSpeak, I am not sure which circles you are in, but like this dating when we know it isn't serious happens like with pretty frum crowds too, it's just called dating so ppl can pass it off.TB and HT and Needs: Gosh, a little reminder of how not simple stuff is for the already married. Guess we all so better daven.Shalom
9:01 AM
EN said...
Elisheva- "Or should we wait, like Tova said, no matter what, until we are good and ready before we date ANYTHING! (Gosh, but that is SO hard. But maybe we should be mature and do the difficult thing...)"To a point, I agree that Halacha defines what is right and wrong in regard to mingling of the sexes. However, due to different backrounds, hormones and maturity of many people, dating is necessary to become more mature. To even say it is possible for everyone to be ready to marry someone without dating others in between, is not accepting reality. As long as the person "hanging out" has good intentions and not to touch the other person, and the only issur a boy will have is "shemiras eynayim" or even if you want to say the mishna in prikei avos, "talking too much with a woman", the good that will come out is better than what ever issur you can think of. At a certain age 17, 18, 19, it is in between. It is the experimenting stage. God does understand. If you are afraid the girl might be mislead and fall for a "bad" guy and it will end up in a divorce, so girls should learn to take it slow and not rush into a marriage. A girl shouldn't feel ashamed to talk to a boy. That, I think, would be wrong chinuch.
9:26 AM
EN said...
Oh, and thanks for linking me :-)
9:28 AM
Josh said...
Michael - Good work. What you and TB say about getting married young definitely makes sense to me. I can see how that might have had advantages in my own life. How can you deal with your hormones until that point? (No matter how young you get married, there are more than a few years to deal with the Yetzer Hora.) I'm not a psychologist, but I'd suggest that there is no need to release the Yetzer Hora. If doesn't hurt you mentally or physically if you don't give in, so there is no Halachic need to provide an outlet. While a strong Yetzer Hora is absolutely normal, all I can suggest is that you have to fight your Yetzer Hora on a daily basis. (There are numerous suggestions as to what can help, but that's too much for a comment.) You may not always win, but you shouldn't give up the fight. Just try not to do anything that you'll regret in the long run. At some point, B"H, you'll have plenty of outlet.As far as Eli's concerns about how you can know about your spouses *interests*, I've had that same concern myself. To add to what Michael said, I think that certain characteristics should jump out at you. Lazy will be bad. Adventurous good. Notices a good dvar torah more than a pretty girl walking down the street will be bad (although obviously a good guy). Bold and creative will be good. Basically, the yetzer hora is correlated to a person's personality, so there are traits that you can look for. It's not foolproof, but it must help. And I would venture that flirting and other subtle conversations related to your Yetzer Hora should tell some more. Still not perfect, but it sure beats a "trial run" in my humble halachic opinion.
9:42 AM
Elster said...
Turq: Just so you understand, i think growinf together WITH someone IS the ideal. I think I did a slightly poor job of making my point which is as follows: If you wait a little longer, and you have a better understanding of who YOU are, it will help you in deciding who you want to BE with; ie, the RIGHT ONE. Too often people WANT to be a certain way, but that's not who they really are. Therefore, they end up dating people who are not right for them. 5 years later they realize this. That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.As for the whole raging hormones thing: Look, I can only speak from personal experience, as can anyone. I got married at 25 and didn't really "do anything" with girl before I got married. yet, I survived. Yes, perhaps my childhood structure was not as rigid (sp??) as some others, but still. I fail to see much validity in that argument. HOWEVER, I admit that is my view. If someone can enlighten me, that would be great.
9:52 AM
NormalJew said...
Elisheva, You have bcome quite Ms. Popular!! Happy to see. Good luck!!!! Lakewood rules!! ;-)Peace!NJ from NJ
10:19 AM
David said...
The bottom line is.. It's very difficult to generalize.Everyone has their own level of temptations and their own source of courage to resist them.I personally cannot imagine that anyone had greater sexual urges than I did during my teenage years..but it was never even a question..there was never even the slightest opportunity for me to act out on them with a girl...and somehow I managed to survive (I did marry the first girl I dated..lol).I'm not sure where people get their sexual preferences from..some like it rough..others soft...some like playing roles..I don;t think you're born with them, I think either theyre colored by your very first (even subconcious) sexual experience or picked up later..but it's impossible to know what kind of sexual creature your partner will be for the rest of their life.David
10:58 AM
Michael said...
Elisheva, I wrote "Is it really worth your olam habah for a touch?" and you wrote "How far do you have to go to lose your olam habah? Cause there will be SOME interaction with the opposite sex, and some is probably needed to check him/her out. So what EXACTLY are the limits, or is it each person acording to when it is too much for her?" I'm not sure where the ambiguity is there. Yes, interaction is ok (within certain gedarim) but negia should be off-limits. Absolutely, you SHOULD "check him/her out" because you want to make sure that you're attracted because that is such a big part of it. But I'd say that negia is a universal limit. There are shitos that put hugging/kissing etc. as an "abezrayhu" (sort of like the concept of a "toldah" in hilchos Shabbos) of giluy arayos and that it's punishment of a chiyuv misah is the same. That's not exactly something I'd like to play around with, would you?As far as dating in seminary/yeshiva in Israel, I'd agree with Josh in that it's very distracting for both sides. You're there to learn and will have plenty of time to date and meet more people once you're back in America. The year is so difficult emotionally and spiritually and mentally and you're trying to figure out how you want to live your life and what things you're going to make part of you from then on. It's a time of personal growth and you shouldn't have someone else you just met interfering with that. Again, easier said than done, but I think that if you value your time and your learning and you realize the tremendous opportunity before you, you can manage for one more year.I'd also agree with En that dating actually helps you mature and helps you figure out who you are, what you're looking for etc. But, that doesn't mean you should start before you're actually ready. Figure out who you are as best you can before you start looking for someone else.
11:07 AM
turquoiseblue said...
>>>>TBlue-did you go for "marriage counseling" before you got married? It doesn't seem so common, at least in my circle.<<<
turquoiseblue said...
HT & NEEDY - I don't want to hijack Eli's blog here with that off-topic... if you want to - we can continue this on your own blogs (I don't have one, yet.)
11:23 AM
Elster said...
Turq: And what a waste that you don't. You have a lot of (well thought out) things to say....
12:02 PM
bleemy's blemishes said...
Dont discuss others Olam Haba until you acsertain your own is not in jeapordy!I cant stand all these holy people who judge everyone except themselves.
3:11 PM
Michael said...
Bleemy, I'm not judging you or Elisheva or anyone else for that matter. It's not my blog and it's not my life and it's not my place to judge anyone.I recognize how difficult it is, I've been there, too. I'm merely saying that, given the seriousness of the action in halacha, you should try to think about it before you get in the situation. Think about it, decide whether it's important to you or not. If it's not, "fine." If it is, then try to resolve that you won't do it so that if/when you do get there you'll have a bit more strength to fight the urge.
3:31 PM
Cool BT said...
Elisheva, first of all I think you have a beautiful name.As far as guys dating without serious intentions I don't think this is limited to Israel. I think we are living in a really immature age. Like this last generation grew up with out any real problems. Jewish history is replete with persecution and problems. You didn't have time to sit around and flirt with people on dates let along write a blog. Life was much more about the essentials. I think even though Jews didn't have it so easy they knew exactly why they were living and probably didn't waste to much time. This is a very good way to live because none of us have a contract with Gd. The reality is that we could lose our health or perish any day. Jews have never been as wealthy as they are today. The Jews have never had as many freedoms as they do now in America. All of these things add into the equation when looking at the youth of today. This could explain our immaturity. Chovos Lavovos has a great vort on what "wakes" a person up from his stupidity. He says things like a friend or family member getting sick / dying, losing money, our own health being taken from us etc. all wake a person from his slumber. So I imagine that either we live like we mean it or face up to things when "something" happens.Michael... that was a bit verbose :)Josh, is that a real pic of you?
10:25 PM
ClooJew said...
Michael,Don't let Bleemy get to you.She's very judgemental when it comes to her perceiving others' judgementalism. She's a bit trigger-happy in that regard.
10:27 PM
ClooJew said...
Sorry, lulei demistafina, for chiming in so late. LOTS to say.Shev, I don't think this guy is representative at all. Plenty of bochurim don't plan on ending up in Lakewood (hard to believe!). They want to stay in E"Y and their dating is serious.Besides, the joke is on this imbecile--he thought going on a fake shidduch date was fun? REAL shidduch dates aren't much fun. And I bet he paid for the Cokes.There are a lot of kids, from what I hear, who aren't serious and just want to fool around or worse (or not worse--as Semgirl discusses on her blog)--but that seems to be mutually understood by guy and girl.Daniel makes an excellent point on the dangers of younger kids dating--they probably need some time for their newfound religiosity to set in before jumping into marriage. I saw several marriages crumble within months as the frumming out wore off once both were back on American soil.TURQ, it sounds like you surfed the wave perfectly and landed in a terrific relationship--you should thank G-d every day for that (I'm sure you do!).As for kosher fun, I say, lulei demistafina, BRING BACK BOWLING!Michael's comment that "Unless you're willing to 'go all the way,' no amount of negia will be enough and that's a slippery slope to travel on" is, as the English (which I am not) say, spot on. But I would, lulei demistafina, disagree with his point about raging hormones. I think that does factor into the push to get married. Don't forget, the singles crisis (in non-religious/non-Jewish circles) is arguably due to the fact that men "won't buy the cow if they can get the milk for free." So by holding out, women force men to get married (and, to a large extent in the frum world, vice versa).Oh and this was my favorite comment: "The shiduch crisis in your side of the world is only getting worse." In YOUR side, he says. And what is HIS screenname? "needsablowjob." Nuff said.
10:27 PM
NeedsaBlowJob said...
CJ,I thought you were more open minded than that. You shouldn't judge a comment by its handle.I happen to be a woman.....And yes, chances are you might never G'F! get married and you know that.
11:19 PM
Elisheva said...
First of all, lines and 'shtuchs' are fine, but please all in good fun.Now where to start from? I think there is like enough for five posts here, and maybe we should like break it up or something, lol.Oh, and WELCOME BACK CJ! We really missed your insightful comments (at least i did).Now EN (and Michael), I don't fully agree with dating just to get used to the other sex. Like we are not THAT seperate these days that we have totally no clue (even in pretty frum circles, I think). And while that isn't the same as talking and getting a 'feel' for the other sex, I also think you can get pretty mixed up if you date too much. You lose track like what type likes what, and get confused. At least I do. maybe I am not that good at this, but I (humbly, or is that luli demisifta or whatever)think I am pretty good at getting to know people. So like there is good in getting familiar with the other side, but the danger of getting too mixed up and confused. Like your bashert will be one type, and not necessarily what you saw in others which may dissapoint you.Josh, very good advice of looking at things you see as a clue to other things you don't see. Guess I wasn't looking at intimate stuff as similar to other things (like i am pretty aidel on the whole, but I think I would be pretty unaidel with a husband in private). But I guess there still are lots of pointers. I have to think about that.Elster, David, and the others who had urges but never did anything till marriage (I can't decide if TB is saying she didn't do anything, or just not anything TOO terrible): Like there are obviously tonz of frum ppl who are too scared to do anything tho they so wish like crazy they could. And that is a great thing, and that is why i think that communal standards are good up to a point (Josh's blog, again, I don't know how to link, anyone?)cause the pressure holds them back, and we need things to hold us back.But like there are those for whom the pressure just doesn't work. A person who is rebelling, a girl with a sudden unexpected heart-stopping oment when rational thought stops and like no one is there for there to be pressure of being caught, and like the other person is let's say not as frum and doesn't consider this a breach. Or like any other kind of situation where the fright just doesn't work. So in such a case a person needs there own way to keep strong and i doubt what David and Elster say they managed was from personal strength alone and not the fear of community etc. Or maybe i am just weak and they are strong. So what do weak people do? I guess we gotta get strong. OK.Michael, I know negia is off-limits in halacha, but according to many of our upbringing, so is talking and body language and other stuff. Like that's what i meant where is the line. you say it's everything but negia, but others say that is stupid and will just lead to negia and is assur anyway, and the line has to be earlier. So it isn't clear (to me at least).TB, I read TONZ, and I learned alot. Hope it helps... But it's not like real life experience like fooling around with a neighbor's cute cousin... lol. And you def SHOULD write your own blog too!Cool BT, you are so right! Very good point. I read that somewhere that because we are so totally bored and don't have to fight for our yiddishkeit it means less and we are busy with silly things. But like that's the way it is, so B"H we aren't being persecuted and we don't daven that we should (chas veshalom!), so we have to learn to deal with our situation now. But you are right, we should try to internalize that there are way more important things.CJ! You have a diferent take as usual. And I so love bowling! So you think the Israel dating can be very serious, but on the other hand, like sometimes we so change when we can back we have to wait. I guess it depends on the person?Gosh, this is WAY too much. This is like for a gemarakup to keep track of all this and i def am not. I am like keeping to look back, and my eyes are blurrying already. I just wanted to make another comment. I thought alot about all the stuff and I actually think now that maybe i never really hought about it before, but for the most part i think the dating in israel (for us who plan on going back and we don't HAVE to date there) is pretty much just a play, like as if we really mean it. And that is even for the girls. Like i am not saying we don't think we do, but deep down i think it's the thrill and the fun, and probably like lots of you pointed out, a BIG distraction.So I am not saying we don't need the fun (see SemGirl's blog again), but I would think we should know it usualy is that and not serious dating.And Duude, i saw your blog and sooo feel for your broken heart. yes i know (at least some, lol) guys have hearts too. But that doesn't mean that sometimes it isn't the guy fooling the girl.NormalJew: I don't think I am that like who-knows-what, but sure Lakewood rocks! (at least in some ways, lol) But you are still The Man.Whew! Shalom all.
2:36 AM
Elisheva said...
And Bleemy, thanks so much for popping in. You are still The Girl!And sorry for all the typos in last comment.
2:41 AM
The Rabbi's Kid said...
I think 18/19 is too young for most people who are integrated in the modern world. Give it time, there's nothing wrong with discovering yourself first.TRK
3:35 AM
turquoiseblue said...
Elisheva - Can you tell that I STILL think of all the "almost-kosher" fun I had was "bad"... that I can't bring myself to write it out...?But just so you don't think it was worse than it actually was... it was really nothing too much more than talking with boys - at worst - light, really light flirting... (I probably NEVER considered crossing the line of "touching", but some friends did. It was easy for me to separate myself from those actions - because my family was always frummer than most of my friends. So it was "normal" for them to do things - that I didn't do. Not that I wasn't tempted many-a-time...)And while I'm writing this I'm thinking, again - how true it is - if/when "society" lowers the bar on what's "acceptable" fun... you'd have to go "lower" to really get a thrill...I mean, all I did was "talk to boys" and felt the thrill (and more ;) of what probably would take going "all out" nowadays! You write: >>>TB, I read TONZ, and I learned alot. Hope it helps... But it's not like real life experience like fooling around with a neighbor's cute cousin... lol. And you def SHOULD write your own blog too!<<<3:52 AM
Elster said...
I'm glad that it was decided (without me) that the reason I never acted was simply because I was afraid of the consequences, rather than some inner strength.Well, it was really a combination of different things. The point is, if I survived, anyone can. We make choices in this world. Many things are out of our hands but not everything. This is something that is totally within your own ability. You can choose to hold back or you can choose to give in. But don't pretend that the pressure was so great that there was no choice. I don't buy that. free will is a part of who you are. Many of those who commented were talking acting out in seminary. How old were they? 18? 19? PLease. it was a choice. I'm not judging. i don't think people who "did things" are worse people than me. Not at all. All I am saying is that they chose to do the things they did.
1:22 PM
ClooJew said...
This post has been removed by the author.
3:21 PM
ClooJew said...
Shev, If NJ is "The Man" and Bleemy is "The Girl," can I be "The Dude"? I always wanted to be "The Dude."Turq, I hereby nominate you as "Best Commenter Without His/Her Own Blog." It seems that the more you read on these posts, the more of a tzaddeikes you become retroactively.Needs A BJ, sorry I thought you were a guy, but what was I SUPPOSED to think?
3:22 PM
turquoiseblue said...
This post has been removed by the author.
4:42 PM
dietgarage said...
youth makes people blind. but gotta have fun and relax within reason.
6:42 PM
Josh said...
Cool BT - It sure isn't George Clooney. Why do you ask?Elisheva - Everyone has a certain level of hormones that they keep bottled up (frum Jews and non-Jews alike). For frum Jews, the release will come after marriage (I know, not completely, but that is another topic). Will everyone make it to that target with 100% purity? No. Everyone will have their own struggles, everyone is weak. Rather than looking for some foolproof way to be perfect, just focus on doing your best. If you crack one day, and flirt with a boy, try to make the next day a little purer- don't think you are a lost soul. When you find your Bashert, you will be at the same clean slate as everyone else. That is the power of Teshuvah.As far as bowling, it's hard when our religion doesn't really build "fun" into the priorities. Convincing our elders that we just want to unwind can be hard. But this is where an education (for guys AND girls) can be helpful. Our parents and teachers tend to lump all activities that don't grow us in terms of Yiddishkeit into one forbidden bucket. Knowing what is Assur and what is harmless entertainment can be helpful in figuring out, for yourself, what activities are harmful for the Neshoma, and which are simply recreational.On a technical note, putting links in comments are a little harder than posts. You have to use HTML. As an example, Josh's Blog To do that you have to type *<* a href="http://jgoldman.blogspot.com">Josh's Blog *<*/a >, without any of the *. Hope that helps.
6:43 PM
Jew Speak said...
This post has been removed by the author.
12:37 AM
Y.Y. said...
great blog you got wow!!!!
11:11 AM
Elisheva said...
Josh, very beautiful comments. And thanks so much for the technical help. I am not sure if this is way over me. MAybe like after my computer course, I will know more. But what do you mean without the "*"? Like why are they there if i don't type them? Am I sounding silly?Shalom and Good Shabbos all.
3:15 PM
Josh said...
The asterisks (*) are there because otherwise Blogger would've translated them as a link, and you wouldn't have been able to see the exact characters I used. But you just need to copy everything else except the asteriks to use the code. You'll see right above the box where you write comments the line "You can use some HTML tags, such as <*b*>, <*i*>, <*a*>" HTML is the computer language that most websites are written in. A tag is the code that is used to differentiate between the regular text you are writing and the text that tells the computer to do something different, like write in bold. To break apart the text that you want to show from the text that is just for the computer to translate, there is a beginning tag and an ending tag. They are always surrounded by the <> characters, and the ending tag gets a <*/*> in the middle. Inside the <> goes whatever tag you want to use ("i" for italics, "b" for bold, "u" for underline, "a" for link). Whatever text is between the tags will have the special effect. For a link, you also add in href="http://yourwebsitehere.com" in the opening tag. That directs the computer to where you want it to go. I hope this makes sense.I hope my technical ramble won't kill this great thread (that means discussion in blogspeak). It'll be worth it if somebody learns something new. Good luck in your computer class (don't forget to tell us all about it)!
5:53 PM
Elisheva said...
Josh, thanx a million! Lots of you were very helpful with all this stuff, and thanx to you all. Yes, I figured out what you were saying. (I'm not dumb just ignorant! lol.)And CJ, not only can you be the Dude, but you definitely ARE The Dude!As far as the thread, I had one other thought over Shabbos, and that is about what Elster said about free will. I am thinking to do a post about it. But for now I just wanted to say that like the fact that we are ultimatly in control of our choices, which I guess like I always knew, but like kinda we don't focus on that and realize what that really means on a practical level, but I realized that it is so true that though things are hard, we cannot say we have no choice. We are not animals. Sure we really can choose. If we'd know we'd get a million dollars we'd choose right. So it's a matter of focus and I guess maturity.Doesn't make the choosing easier, lol, but it gives it a different perspective, and we can't say it's too bad what can I do. We can only say, gosh this is REALLy hard! Did that just make any sense?I hope so. Shalom.
12:51 AM
Cool BT said...
Josh, just didn't think someone would post their real picture.
4:46 AM
Cool BT said...
Elisheva, I am curious what you think of my latest post.
4:50 AM
ClooJew said...
Josh, Thanks for the computer tip! I haven't learned a dang thing about computer code since HS. But I always wanted to know how to do that!Shev, AWWWW!Cool, stop fising for compliments. It's not, lulei demistafina, cool!
1:40 PM
Cool BT said...
cj, not fishing... Elisheva had commented on my comment on the blog world. I just posted on the blog world so I was curious what she thought. Funny you say fishing... that is exactly what I posted against.
2:50 PM
Elisheva said...
CBT: I found it interesting, and made a short comment. Hope to comment more later.
1:42 AM
Limey2001 said...
I dated in israel thinking is it was a joke.... met my wife in israel and the rest is history......I do think the s who date there too are yanking the guys chain too, some are just looking to "break the ice" "have someone to compare the next couple of boys to.... And we definitely go back to the dira and compare ;-}
1:19 PM
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