Just Being Feminine

Sunday, August 28, 2005

It’s great to be back writing a post again. I’ve been away, and so many different things came to mind about which I thought, “I should really write a post about this.” So here is a pretty silly issue; no great intellectual stuff, but it just came up again the past week. And boys, please see my earlier disclaimer before telling me I am going too far. Like every once in a while I am entitled to a silly girl-vent, aren’t I? Although this occasionally came up with close friends or in the seminary dorm, it’s not exactly something we could ever discuss in public, school, etc. So I am trying to take everyone’s advice and open up more on my blog, so here goes.

Growing up as a girl, we like feminine things. Whether it’s nature or nurture (I personally think mostly nature, maybe some nurture), girls just like lacy stuff and frilly bows. We wear jewelry with hearts on them and such stuff. My name, when I sign it, has an “i” in it, and yes, I actually dot the “i” with a heart. My brothers all make fun of me, like isn’t that for little girls? I usually give them a great intellectual response (like sticking my tongue out at them), but I do wonder if they are right. Still, I haven’t changed, and I still sign my name the same way.

Okay, so how do I put today’s issue sensitively? There is an aspect, a more private one, where girls like to feel feminine too. I am talking about clothing, but those which people do not see besides ourselves. Believe it or not, this has become a major battle in my life (Okay, not that major, but still a battle.) between my mother and me.

Like as a little girl, all our underwear has little hearts and ribbons on them. Just like little boys have trucks on theirs, we have silly little girlish stuff on ours. No one makes any issue about that. I never heard that it’s not tzniusdik, it’s prust, or anything like that. Obviously it’s girlish, nothing more and nothing less.

So we get older, grow, and develop, and obviously we start wearing something new with our figure. Now all you girls and ladies out there know – probably even more than I do – that they make this stuff ranging from fairly simple, to quite lacy, feminine and frilly. I am not even talking about the obviously provocative styles which we see in the stores. (As a younger girl I kinda wondered about those, but I guess seeing them on display in all the frum stores is sort of an early kallah class.) Those are obviously to entice, okay.

But I am (hopefully not for long) still single. Nothing I wear will usually be seen by anyone but me. When I first started, my mother bought me only the most plain she could find. Too bad for her even these have some sort of ribbon or trim on them. Now, like I said, I think I am deeply feminine. I always liked dressing up, always played “Kallah” as a girl, or wore my mother’s high-heels and tried to put on make-up. I also found myself, as I started buying stuff on my own, liking the more lacy, feminine, cute styles.

My mother at first didn’t outright object. It was just like, why couldn’t I buy something more “sensible”. Like why isn’t it sensible for a girl to buy girlish stuff? But like I had no idea what others wore, so I had to take her word for it that I should wear more “sensible” stuff. As I got older, went shopping with friends, went away for Shabbos and saw others changing, I realized that lots of quite frum girls wore much more feminine stuff than I did. Not all, true, but like not every girl feels naturally the same way, and besides, perhaps their mothers were like mine. So I started buying stuff I liked more, to my mother’s chagrin. Still, though she disapproved, she let me go.

Then one time, after going to a mall with a friend, I came home with a leopard-print satin set. My mother positively hit the roof. (Why it was her business checking out every last thing I buy is for a different post.) It was as if I had just gone off the derech. Let me say, I had not picked this up like in the section I guess I am not supposed to be browsing in. It was a regular thing, a regular, good brand, very good support actually, just had a design I thought was… I don’t even know. It just felt cute and daring at the same time, to wear it. I felt like it made me feel good, very feminine, like in touch with a part of me I did not really know so well yet, but I was curious about. And NOBODY was going to see me in it but me. So what could be wrong?

I am not pretending to be stupid. I know it’s not aidel in a certain sense. I know it would be extremely provocative if it would be my regular clothing. But it isn’t. It was quietly hidden under my regular, nebby BY uniform, with no one any wiser. I just felt cute wearing it, and seeing myself when got dressed and undressed. Yet my mother was convinced this was the most disgusting, prust thing her formerly sweet, aidel daughter had ever done.

So we have this standing tension, my mother and I. I try to get away with what I can. She tries to get me to wear “more sensible” stuff. Once I was in seminary this past year, I discovered that most girls wear even more that I do. Sure there are those who go for the no-frills, but then there are always girls who just don’t go for frills and bows in anything. It’s their nature. But most girls do wear nice, feminine stuff, and I don’t think it has anything to do with prustkeit. It’s underwear for goodness sakes! We are girls. That’s what’s in the stores, that’s what we like, and that’s what we wear.

I was once complaining in our dorm about my mother and stuff. There were only two other girls there. Like I said, this isn’t something we can actually discuss in public, so I am limited in getting peoples views. That’s why a blog can be so good. So like one girl agreed with me. The other thought my mother was right, these things are probably really just for married ladies (although no one will ever tell this to us either…), it’s just not tznius to even wear such an obviously attractive item. So I was like, “attractive to whom exactly, no one sees it?” She said, but what if like by mistake a guy sees (yes, I know it happens), like if a button opens, we stretch the wrong way, etc.

So I thought about that, but first of all it’s weird to buy underwear on the chance someone sees it. Like by mistake a skirt can ride up too sometimes. It happens; we are human. So should we wear like short pants under our skirts just in case? Besides from my limited experience, when a guy looks (Or should I say stares? Some yeshiva guys can be impossible!) if he can see through our blouse buttons, I don’t think they look any less if I’m wearing something more plain or something cute and feminine. Plus, sometimes it can even hold me back. There are times I may find a guy cute and see him like looking, and I admit it is tempting to like turn a certain way we know gets us attention. But if I am wearing something really lacy, I will be too embarrassed, so I will control myself.

In short, I don’t see how boys should factor into our underwear. They shouldn’t see, and if they do, it’ll make little difference. Like it’s bad enough the teachers are always saying we have to dress having in mind that boys will see us. Can’t our underwear be our own private realm at least? And as such, what is the big deal what we wear in private? How can that not be fine? It’s just for our own good feelings.

Recently, after I came back from seminary I had to go shopping. (Like everything gets positively ruined in the Israeli wash, I don’t know why.) So the fight with my mother started all over again. This last week I was by my Bubby in Boro Park. She is an older Hungarian lady, very frum as far as I can ever tell, and I would think “sensible”. We went to Manhattan, shopping. In one place, there was a lingerie store and she asked if I needed anything, and I stammered that I did. I never bought such stuff with my Bubby before, and I was already thinking, oh no, she’ll for sure make me crazy, it’s just not worth it. But she like had a lady fit me (Bubbys like sometimes have no clue how embarrassed they can make us, I think.), then she is like browsing through the racks, and I am like, it’s okay Bubby I can look myself. So I am being a good, frum, aidel girl and browsing the “sensible” (read: plain) stuff, and my grandmother says, “Sheifale, you’re shoin a Kallah maidel. You should feel good with yourself. Why don’t you look for nicer things?” I was totally floored. And she was browsing through stuff even I thought was only for married ladies. I wish I could have discussed this with her, but I was still too embarrassed, but it made me think.

Maybe the younger, “frummer” generation is like getting all worked up over the wrong things. Maybe with age comes common sense to see things the way they really are. Or maybe it’s just my mother, and I’m making something out of nothing.

Shalom,

Elisheva

posted by Elisheva @ 2:05 PM

266 Comments:
Halfnutcase said...
many appologies but it's called the "i'm frummer than you game" and btw, though i personaly have no expiriance with this when i asked a friend about said same question (having accidently seen such an item in a store and promply figuring about what it was closing my eyes and holding on to a perents cart till i felt i was past the store)

she simply said that the lacy isn't a problem, it's when you are wearing colors that it really gets to be a problem (i don't have a clue what it all means really but all i know is her point was, in general colors are when you want someone to see it.)

i don't know any more so please PLEASE don't ask!

6:31 PM
SemBoy said...
Very thought provoking post, seriously. I think you deserve some space to feel good about yourself, especially given that you have to be extra-conscious in your outward mode of dress. You sound so aidel talking about it, that I really feel that it's something you're doing for yourself, not for any sinister reasons.

I can tell you that I've had similar mishegaas. In the past, I was drawn to the men's sleepwear section in Macy's, specifically the silk boxers. In the end I gave in and dished out $10+ for the accoutrement. The first time I slept in them, I felt powerful, honestly. Being a bachelor and all, I obviously didn't have anybody to share it with. Nonetheless, I felt renewed vigor and a sense of specialness. For me, I needed to compete with the guys on the Calvin Klein briefs. I think theres more expression for you, though, and hope bubby can talk mommy out of her dispeasure if it makes you feel special about yourself.

7:04 PM
Frum Single said...
I definitely can relate. Im sitting in shule shabas and this guy (who always acts like my good friend) makes a mi shebairach for everyone around me, but "for some reason" skips over me.

Just because I'm single and don't wear a talis, does that mean I don't rate?

7:33 PM
EN said...
Interesting post Elisheva, finally a blog with some posts of what girls are going through! I can hear your issue with your mother loud and clear. It is natural and normal to want to be more feminine and I can't see any Halachic issues of why it would be wrong, since no one will ever see you wear it and it is not provocative and it even does a mitzvah by making you feel good about yourself. But I can also see your mother's point of view that just maybe, if you start wearing lacy underwear, what will be next? Who knows where it will lead? Is it not better to clip it in the bud? Today it is underwear, tommorow it will be a shorter dress. When will it end? It could be the issue of chinuch, where to draw the line and to teach the proper hashkafa. Not halacha perse.

8:52 PM
ClooJew said...
That was such a sweet, funny and heartfelt post.

You had me rolling on the floor with lines like "I usually give them a great intellectual response (like sticking my tongue out at them)" and "Can’t our underwear be our own private realm at least?"

As a guy, lulei demistafina, I don't know what to add except to acknowledge that yes, I do wear boxers decorated with little headshots of George Clooney. (You got a problem with that?)

And one more thing: LONG LIVE BUBBY!!!

11:52 PM
Semgirl said...
Elisheva, all I can say is WOW.. I am stll blushing..

Maybe this post should of had a disclaimer for the men..Read at your own risk..

Talk about needing a cyber mehitza.. Very, very well written. You are a thousand percent right, Bobby is the alta dor. I would also venture to say that she is a lot more ehlich than your parents or mine..

12:47 AM
Y.Y. said...
elisheva
some great points you made
seems like parents try too hard

9:18 AM
ClooJew said...
"I would also venture to say that she is a lot more ehlich than your parents or mine."--Semgirl

Do you agree with that, Elisheva? Until now, the portrait I have had of your parents and Semgirl's is that they are strict, but it is heartfelt. Ehrlich means honorable. Would you say, lulei demistafina, that your parents' behavior is not honorable?

9:31 AM
Semgirl said...
Ok, let me define what I mean by ehlich with a story.

A Lakewood lady was in a store, looking at a snood very, very carefully. Almost with a magnifying glass to find microscopic holes, But meanwhile, she was talking loshon Hara the whole time.

There is a tendency in this generation to push Tznius and frumma shtick to the nth degree at the cost of Bain Odom L'Chaveiro.

Elisheva's bobby is not shoving tznius down her throat as intensely as her mother, but she probably has a lot more Yiras Shomayim for the basics.

10:09 AM
Elisheva said...
SemGirl, you make a very good point, But I would even go further. Cause like my grandmother, as far as I ever see and saw is tzniusdik.

In other words, it's not like she isn't so major in tznius, but at least her Yiras Shomayim is there. She is tzniusdik too, but I think in a real way, not in a way which seeks to find stuff about tznius.

I think what I am trying to say, is that Bubby is a tzanua, so she doesn't need external things to tell herself she is being tznius. Just whatever is not tznius she would not feel right with. Obviously, she doesn't feel this is wrong. So maybe people who say it is, are because they don't feel tznius, so they have to look for things to make themselves that way.

Am I making sense? Like I mean to say something, I know what I want to say, but please let me know if I said it, lol.

Shalom

10:35 AM
Elisheva said...
Oh, and CJ - I thought I have a pretty good yiddish. (Thanx to Zeida who goes along with Bubby, and my other Zeidy.) I always thought ehrlich meant honest.

So though it pains me to say so, I don't think that what my mother always does in honorable. Of course she means well, but I think she is simply not going about stuff the right (honorable?) way.

But they are definitely honest people. Like I said in my post about frummies, I may disagree with their views, but they are honest and pleasant, and not judgemental.

Shalom again!

10:40 AM
Y.Y. said...
elisheva
maybe your mother felt
that someday you might show it off to a guy

11:08 AM
BarbaraFromCalifornia said...
Underwear can be tricky....

Over the years, the entire idea of it has changed. We call it 'under' but there is something outer that factors into our bying it all of the time.

Being a woman is wonderful, most of the time, and going shopping in Manhattan is something I miss quite a bit.

It is good to see you writing again.

Be well.

11:12 AM
JewishBiFemme said...
Loved your post nice blog! I have never been to sem sounds like fun!

11:33 AM
Elster said...
I really have nothing to add except this. Kudos, Elisheva, for writing this. it probably took a lot of guts.

3:29 PM
RJT said...
"It just felt cute and daring at the same time, to wear it."

I've longed maintained that the primary reason "tzinous" is stressed so much for the girls is *not* to hide the girls' bodies from the boys, but to hide their bodies from themselves.

As a frum, working guy I can tell you that I see more skin on the subway each day than I ever would from the least tzinous frum girl I can think of. And as a married man, I can tell you that the insane stress girls are put under in school about tzinous and their bodies can ultimately be very harmful to a healthy marriage...

5:07 PM
rebtsvi said...
This was a wonderful sensitive post. Three cheers for Bubby.

A few more posts like this one and you'll have the makings for a book on your hands.

Excellent excellent post.

5:42 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
If I admitted that I needed a fifteen minute session with my Mesilas Yesharim after I read this post, would you think less of me?

Nu, so you like to wear pretty underwear. So what. As long as no one sees it but you- as long as you aren't showing off your underwear to every pervert in the Exxon station after 11:30 (are you? because that's when I'm there...), there shouldn'tbe a problem. IMHO.

I personally prefer cotton boxers, and I usually buy them in primary colors. I will admit that I have some with pictures on them and I wear them on occasion. For example, my "date boxers"- blue with playing card symbols on them, diamonds,clubs,and so forth.

Because they say "Lucky!" on the band, that's why.

And, so long as you have as little chance of seeing them as I have of seeing yours, I don't see what the problem is.

5:46 PM
ClooJew said...
Chainik,

We really did not need, lulei demistafina, that visual.

;)

8:16 PM
ClooJew said...
But Semgirl, can't someone, lulei demistafina, avoid the microscopic snood AND avoid lashon hara?

Elisheva, I don't want to push the envelope here...but what do you mean she is honest but not honorable? How do you define honorable?

8:19 PM
The Tailor said...
Sheva,

I have been thinking about this issue a lot lately, that being tznius, not womens undergarments. You raise a good point, even if no one can see it, is there a problem with wearing very "sexy" type things. This generation deals with more things than previous generations. In my opinion, it is because the values and practices of secular society have crept into the frum world forcing us to evaluate more aspects of life.

Your granmother comes from a simpler time in many regards so to her, feminine is just feminine. It is less involved. You mother is coming at things form a perspective of her young frum daughter and her being bombarded by the world.

I think if you do wqhat you think is right and do it because you really believe it is right, your mom will respect it, if not at least accept it. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Sounds like you are where you need to be.

8:47 PM
Semgirl said...
CJ .. Lulei.... Someone in theory can do anything. It was merely an anecdote to illustrate a point..

8:56 PM
Elisheva said...
Tailor, I think you like put in one sentence what I was trying to beat around in my whole long piece. Like is being sexy bad per se if it stays inside. Like does being a tzanua preclude feeling sexy, thinking sexy, and dressing sexy if no one sees.

I think the message we get in schools and everything is that the two are not compatible. My mother certainly feels that way. So maybe they are right and i am looking for excuses. But maybe not. Maybe we are sexual beings and like we will be married so aren't we supposed to feel this way then? So maybe tzanua means just that, keeping it hidden, but not necessarily squashing the feeling. I wish I knew. It is sooo totally frustrating not knowing in a way if I am like being bad or not. And the few people i could think of that I would respect what they say about it, i'd be like totally embarassed to ask. So I am left putting it on the blog.

For those who are like saying how brave I am for posting such stuff. I don't know if it was brave or stupid, or just wrong. I do know, that I am still blushing (alot!). I just pushed myself to do it. And that is WITH the fact that no one here knows me in real life.

Rebtzvi, a book? About girl's lingerie? So who will print it, Artscroll or Feldheim?

Shalom

1:21 AM
The Tailor said...
Sheva,

"It is sooo totally frustrating not knowing in a way if I am like being bad or not."

--You are 100%not being, thinking or doing bad. you are trying to find your place in the universe and that is being good. you have thoughts and feelings that are confusing to you and you are attempting to figure them out and that makes you srong and brave. Blogging "anonymously" doesn't make you a coward or any less brave, i is the 21st century and you are using the tools available to you.

We all may be different in many ways but your struggles in one form or another are universal, just look at the number of comments you are getting. Honestly, you may be the one saying certain things, but please understand you are perfectly normal and people of different ages, genders and levels of observance are connecting to it.

Feel good abot your blog and the issues youbring up, it is a wonderful thing to be a part of bringing people together. You are asking questions and i understand why it might be a little difficult for you but keep in mind what R. Shlomo Carlebauch said" Questions bring us together and answers tear us apart."

2:05 AM
SemBoy said...
Elisheva, I think we'd all get a laugh if you asked the
Frumteens Moderator. Just don't take anything he says seriously without consulting someone. He has a tendency to inject the Satmar position into every issue and somehow will have you believe that this is the consensus amongst the poskim (heres one example). You can check with me if you want. LOL

2:08 AM
ari-chai said...
I have a silly perhaps naive question, have you tried to discuss this with your mother – or is this an impossibility?
Have you tried to tell her that you are frum and tzanua (modest) – but this makes you feel good. And it is very private.
I can not think of any halackik objection to this, in fact if this is part of your self esteem (and I stress SELF) why should there be any objection.
We are all part of the societies which produce us - and this is who you are. Furthermore I can stress – that if you are raising this question sincerely and searching to balance your feelings with halachik sensibilities – you are certainly not being “bad”.
I do believe many michanchim (especially beis yakov) put the stress in the wrong place, real tzniut is not adopting a puritanical asexual existence. It means keeping your sexuality private – or shared with one special person. You are trying to keep it private – even if you do discuss it in a public forum.

2:58 AM
Elisheva said...
The Tailor, thanx. Like I know I am normal. I am past the stage when I wondered that. But does normal make it good? Like don't we have normal tavos which we are supposed to try to overcome? So if I don't try to overcome something I should, wouldn't that be a bad thing to do? So again the whole question, is there any reason to try to overcome the desire to wear sexy underwear, just to feel sexy and good inside, for my very own self? I don't see why not, and seems like most people here agree with me, but like I think out there are those who say it is very wrong.

And Ari-Chai, welcome, and thanx, but like yes it is something I always ask, like who cares what I wear underneath? No one will see it? Is that a discussion? No. She just says, "It's just not yiddish and not right." Or not aidel, or whatever. When I ask how can it be if it is only for myself, I get, that's just the way it is. You know, some parents we can't discuss things with.

Pity, my father is usually more open for discussion on stuff, but I'd like never be able to discuss my underwear with him.

CJ - I saw your question, but have to think about it. I guess I just think the two are very different. Like honorable means doing the right thing? So I don't think she is, but not out of spite or selfishness, just cause she is part of this misguided yiddishkeit I think, which I don't think is an honorable yiddishkeit. But why would that ever make her dishonest chas veshalom?

Shalom

9:43 AM
NormalJew said...
Your mother needs to lighten up, and you should be able to wear any underwear you want!!

By forcing you to wear plain nebby undies, she will only cause you to do other stuff she will REALLY regret!

Keep up your independent spirit!

Peace!

NJ from NJ

9:57 AM
Elster said...
Semboy:


I don't have strong opinions on many topics but here's one for you: Frumteens is BAD. The moderator(s) have a clear agenda and they are selling an almost cult-like form of Judaism. It's the moderator's way of the highway when it comes to many topics. It's scary how they condemn modern orthodoxy and loving Israel into things that are outside the acceptable pale of Judaism.

10:27 AM
Litvshe said...
First of all, great post. Well written and well thought out. I certainly understand the predicament.
My wife is the kind of person others call up to talk to when they're having problems. She, unfortunately, has more knowledge of some of the problems in the heimishe community then I'm comfortable with. We were discussing an issue the other day, when I mentioned how I was reading some blogs and saw that, rachmana litzlan, that there is a certain amount of marital infidelity in the velt. My wife nodded knowingly and then made a comment that blew me away.
"Women treat their bodys as clothes hangers"
That's it. The only thing your body is for is a place to put your clothes when you're walking around. Is it strange then that both husband and wife look elsewhere for fulfilment?

Chazal called the women in the generation of Yiztias Mitzraim, Nashim Tzadkanious. Why did they get the appelation, Tzadkanious? Because when they knew their husbands would be coming home from hard labour they would dress themselves up to be attractive so the men wouldn't go to sleep when they got home and future generations would be born. Feeling good about your body and what you can do with it are important. Obviously, like everything else in the world, it can be corrupted or elevated to the most sublime levels of Kedushah.
Even if your not married yet, having a good image of yourself and knowing you're a women are, at the very least, a heksher mitzvah. So, go for it. Get the most feminine, racy, silky, whatever. Don't let the misconception of what tznius is ruin you.

10:32 AM
ari-chai said...
Try and achieve an understanding with your mother – reassure her that you are not rebelling, and that it makes you feel good. Tell her it is cheaper than therapy :)
And if you need to -tell her you discussed this with a Rov who said it is fine (you just did - and i did)

11:34 AM
normalchasid said...
Elisheva,

I fully agree with you that there is nothing wrong with wearing sexy lingerie. I'm sure the stores in Boro Park and flatbush carry them for a reason. Your future husband will love you for that! (as well as for a host of other reasons...)I know that lots of men try and beg their wives to wear sexy lingerie to no avail.

As far as being single and wearing them, I say why not?? If you feel comfortable with it, go ahead and express yourself.

I myself as a man, wear colored bikini briefs because it makes ME feel good about myself and I like the way I look when I see myself in them. I KNOW it is not the norm among my friends, but WHO CARES.

I like it and thats what counts.

12:07 PM
ClooJew said...
I absolutely LOVE, lulei demistafina, how everyone is injecting their personal viewpoints into this discussion, rather than trying to advise Elisheva based on HER background. The Tailor is "100%" sure it's okay; Normaljew prophesies that "nebby" underwear will lead her off the derech. Such confidence!

Elisheva, this question calls for a Godol (again Godol, with capital G, means not simply a LOR). My suggestion would be Rav Matisyahu Solomon, shlit"a. You could call him anonymously on the phone. Even tell him you're embarrassed. I am POSITIVE (now I'm making bold predictions) that he will tell you there is nothing to be embarrassed about. It would also be beneficial for him, lulei demistafina, to be aware of what's going on among the teens of Lakewood (although I'm sure he knows a lot more than we may think).

If you absolutely won't call him--and I really, really think you ought to--then I will be happy to ask a Godol for you.

Another thing: Please read Wendy Shalit's "A Return to Modesty." Wendy wrote it while she was becoming frum. She is well known outside of frum circles, and was the poster child (literally. Her first article was published when she was 19) for the politically conservative anti-feminist movement. I can't imagine (BOLD PREDICTION ALERT!) that you won't find at least some value in the book.

1:41 PM
Elster said...
CJ:

Isn't the point of COMMENTING injecting your personal view points into the matter? Obviously the initial poster must figure out which is wheat and which is chaff but wouldn't it be sillier for someone like me (or anyone else here for that matter), who only has a very weak understanding of Elisheva's background or upbringing (for no one can really understand another's upbringing without actually , you know, KNOWING the person) to start telling her what I think she should do?

Rather, it makes more sense for me to inject my take on her situation. (Me being any one of us). Elisheva can then take out of it what she might.

And sorry, Elisheva, for talking about you like you aren't here but, to be honest, you aren't...

1:58 PM
Elisheva said...
Gosh, tonz to respond to, and no time now. Hope to be back soon.

Just one thing. First I am publishing an underwear book with Artscroll, then I am calling R' Solomon about my underwear. Do you people really think I totally have no busha? I guess since I wrote this post I might have given that impression, but that is not the case. I still have some left, lol.

I truly would love to know what these people think, CJ, but no way could I call him to ask him that. You're more than welcome to ask for me and let me know (in private e-mail or public). But please only if it has a name. I hate when people say "gedolim say..." without saying a name. It's kinda meaningless.

Be back later, Shalom.

2:04 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
CJ: you are seriously planning to approach Harav Ploni, Shlita, Gadol Hador, and begin a sentence with "I have a kasha... about girls underwear..."

R' Ploni: (raises eyebrow)

CJ: "What is your view, halachicly speaking, of frilly pink lacy underwear, lulei demistafina?

R' Ploni: "I beg your pardon?"

CJ: "See, I have this friend that-"

R' Ploni: "I really think this is a question for Rabbi Rieti. Now, if yo'll excuse me..."

R' Ploni's Shamash: "Look, feigeleh, Rav Ploni has to give a shmooze at the Agudah. Why don't you write a letter to the Jewish Press."

CJ: Lulei demistafina!

4:15 PM
The Tailor said...
CJ,

with all due respect, I am only trying to hlep someone figure osmething out. Ys, it is my opinion and yes, i am confident in it. I don't have catch phrases in hebrew or in english but i have the compassion to try and offer another jew some solace. Besides CJ, "her background" i'm sure owuld normally lead to these rabbis/gedolim but for whatever reasons she has chosen this forum at this point to discuss these things. Not to mention the fact that you don't call the white hous initially on basic political question. you are doing the same thing by telling her she should go right to a gadol and ask.

I apologize for the tone but i was not appreciative of your comments, especially where i was involved. We are commenting because we are trying to help her and I do not believe it is fair to place values on them, that is for elisheva to do don't you think?

5:30 PM
brianna said...
"I've longed maintained that the primary reason "tzinous" is stressed so much for the girls is *not* to hide the girls' bodies from the boys, but to hide their bodies from themselves."

Very true. Maybe I'll write a post about that sometime.

Anyway elisheva, AMAZING post. So many of us have gone through similiar things. I remember being 13 and seeing friends and married women I babysat for at the frum ligerie shops and being so embaressed. The way the measuring lady (also a bubbyish type woman) would just burst into the dressing room was kind of traumatic at first. But after I got over it, I looked around and saw some of the frummest young mothers (and newlyweds being shown the 'special rack') buying pretty sexy stuff. It made me realize that they're human and sexual too. It was a wonderful learning experience.

6:21 PM
ClooJew said...
Chainik,

You had me ROLLING in the ailes on that one! FUN-NEE!

But seriously, I say to you and the tailor both, yes this question would be taken seriously by a Godol and should be brough to him. I don't think, lulei demistafina, that the White House analogy fits because (a) Gedolim are much more approachable than the White House, despite what you may think and (b) I think this is a very serious shailah, with ramifications that go beyond Victoria's Secret. It's a serious hashkafic issue.

....write a letter to the Jewish Press! HAR!

6:24 PM
rebtsvi said...
I think Artscroll would be interested. LOL.

I don't think anyone would be interested in a whole book about your undies. (Except the wierdos).

But a book about the struggles you go through, the wisdom of a bubby, and how you find yourself - that is worth reading.

The truth is - I would love to take a copy of that book and force every Girl's school principal and seminary head to read it so they would really understand where normal people were at.

Keep up the excellent posts.

6:26 PM
Semgirl said...
HNC: I find your innocence adorable.

Elisheva: You are absolutely right, we are sensual beings if we are normal and healthy. In fact Tznius comes from the shoresh(root) hatzna "to hide". Manis Friedman discusses this in his excellent book "Doesn't Anybody Bluss Anymore". It is well worth reading.

Tailer: I couldn't agree with you more, that was extremely nice of you to say. Elisheva deserves all of our support and chizik for discussing such an awkward and uncomfortable topic that affects all of us, girls in particular, as well as, fathers and husbands and how they react to it.

I knoow because, never mind undies, my father gives me a very hard time, about the shoes I wear, the clothes I buy, and the stores I go. It drives me out of my mind.

8:18 PM
ClooJew said...
Semgirl, you too should read Wendy Shalit's book "A Return to Modesty."

Rebtsvi is right. A book--I'm thinking a novel would be best--about the struggles of a teenage BY girl would be, lulei demistafina, a bestseller. Remember Nathan Englander?

8:50 PM
bleemy's blemishes said...
If you dont let good girls be girls, they will become bad girls!

Trust me, i know this first hand!

9:08 PM
Elisheva said...
Guys, please. You may all disagree, but please in a nice way.

Okay. So like I think Tailor and Elster are totally right in giving their points. Like they said, that is what comments are about, each person giving their own take, so we can like take what we want from that, what fits with our particular background and personality. I don't think CJ meant otherwise, though I am not sure what he did mean, but let's leave that.

Brianna, hi! Nice to know you had similar experiences. Like isn't it crazy how little we are supposed to know, then we see all the stuff they sell in the frum stores, and the people who buy them?

I think CJ has a point about this being a real hashkafa issue. Like I don't think I even realized it, cause only this aspect was bothering me at the time I wrote the post, but the truth is The Tailor put it right. What is the whole Torah attitute towards girls feeling and thinking sexy. Like even the word connotes bad. At least where I come from it does. But is feeling in touch with our being a sensual person wrong in itself? Do we have to leave it on a back burner until marriage? Even after marriage besides certain times? And if yes, on a low flame, very low? Or maybe not. Maybe it is fine to leave it burning front and center as long as we keep it in check and not flaunt it publicly? or is that too dangerous? Like what is the Torah hashkafa? I wish I knew.

And don't laugh too hard at my ignorance, but who is Nathan Englander?

Shalom

9:18 PM
rebtsvi said...
Nathan Englander supposedly went to HANC on Long Island.

He rebelled against orthodoxy and wrote a book of short stories to show people how englightened he was for leaving Torah.

He is best known for his chapter praising masturbation.

The non frum world loves his stuff.

10:25 PM
Semgirl said...
All I am going to say is that I once heard that the Gam' says that they took the Yetzer Hara for Arayos (sensual desires) and locked it up , whatever that means. And for three days all new life stopped, not even an egg could be found. So they had to release it, and just be mevatal the desire for incest.

I think the message is for a girl to use sensuality to feel good about herself, and get close to her husband to build a strong Torah home.

We are not Christian ascetics, every pleasure that exists can be used for Avodas Hashem.

12:31 AM
callieischatty said...
I heave read a Return To Modesty and yes it does have some good points.

However, to wear pretty pink panties is not relevant to modesty if only she sees them.

I myself LOVE pretty lingerie and did even before I was married. Believe me, when your husband realizes this about you he will consider himself a very lucky man.

Feeling like a beautiful woman and expressing your own individual style in clothes only you see is not something your Mom needs to get into.

People need space and boundries. Frum people as well as secular people. ALL people.

1:05 AM
ari-chai said...
Yoma 69b
They said: Since this is a time of Grace, let us pray for mercy for the Tempter to evil. They prayed for mercy, and he was handed over to them. He said to them: Realize that if you kill him, the world goes down. They imprisoned him for three days, then looked in the whole land of Israel for a fresh egg and could not find it. Thereupon they said: What shall we do now? Shall we kill him? The world would then go down. Shall we beg for half-mercy? They do not grant ‘halves’ in heaven. They put out his eyes and let him go. It helped inasmuch as he no more entices men to commit incest.

3:50 AM
ari-chai said...
Sorry CJ – I don’t think that question needs a “Gadol” – it needs someone who understands halacha – and understands the sensitivities of those who have asked the question.
You also quickly introduced the “H” word – haskafa into the discussion. Interesting. First – as far as Halacha goes is there an issur? I don’t believe so, and from what I can tell neither do you.
Here is the question; is there an obligation for a woman to feel frumpy? Or can a woman feel like a woman?
On the one hand a woman – or man should not flaunt sexuality – but on the other hand Judaism does not ascribe to puritanical Christian values either.
I have no problem paskening this shayla – it is muttur. Leave the halackik discussion to lengths of skirts blouses and other such issues.
The hashkafa question is- should a woman who dresses modestly, trust her internal feminine compass when it guides her to dress in a private way that makes her feel good.
Leave the Gadolim to discuss big questions.
In the right time LE7’s husband will appreciate her sensuality

4:04 AM
ClooJew said...
Ari,

I am in total 100% disagreement.

This is a "big question" because it addresses a core issue of, as callie put it, "space and boundaries." Will feeling sexy, lulei demistafina, cause Elisheva to act more sexy? Will she find herself more in touch with her sexuality? Will this be a good thing for her (before marriage)?

These ARE the big questions--Remember G-d is in the details.

4:53 PM
Semgirl said...
CJ

Point 1: "These ARE the big questions--Remember G-d is in the details. "

Luli.. blah blah blah, Thats right and in line with Yiras Shomayim. You are a man, and your not even married, so it is like really really prust for you to even be part of this discussion. And then you have the gall to get self-righteous about it too.

Point 2: It is very important for Eli to be in tune with her femininity to be healty and normal. I dont recall her saying that she wants to get VS loungerie and dance in the street in it. She only wants to feel like a girl in the privacy of her bedroom. This is very healthy for and extremely important for her marriage, which should be very soon, B'ezras Hashem.

5:12 PM
ari-chai said...
Assuming everything you said is correct only she can ask this question - to someone who understands her. Asking a "Gadol" for her is ludicrous.
But why do you think a “regular” Rov could not answer – or pasken this question.

5:30 PM
Elisheva said...
Okay wow. So like let's all take a deep breath.

It seems lots of the comments are like that (IY"H very soon) my future husband will appreciate my taking my sensuality and feminity to my undies drawer. I don't think I realized it went that far, but all the better. I definitely plan on doing my best in that department.

The issue I raised however was like now and for all girls until we are married from when we start becoming aware, which even in the best case is years. So is it good now because of later or not.

I don't see why not, same way I don't see why it should be a problem later, though it seems lots of married ladies feel that the entire sensual feeling has to be kept down I'm not sure why. I guess to avoid problems. That's what lots of guys here seem to be having problems with. I think that is wrong, and we must be in touch with ourselves and just know our limits and learn to control it. I can't say this is Torah hashkafa. Maybe the Torah does say to limit it in case of dangers, but I don't know that.

So in this aspect I still agree with CJ that it is a real haskafa question, with no bearing on my own background, but in general how much can we let the sexual animal inside of us out, even if only in our private bedroom? I know from the feeling of the community I live in like loads of girls aren't clear on this issue. I feel it should be OK, but I am not sure if that is a right feeling ot my yetzer hora.

I am not a posek but I would agree with Ari-Chai that this is surely not a halacha question. Still, is it right?

SemGirl and AC both are so right that the other extreme, which I think lots of girls (and it seems ladies) are on, is totally wrong. Whether we should totally be in touch with our feelings and let it go or not, it surely isn't something bad in itself. I know of girls with problems I think because they are confused with what they naturally feel, and they think it makes them like inherently bad. That is Christian, not Yiddish.

6:48 PM
Elisheva said...
On a lighter note: The one thing that most surprised me from this post was the amount of guys who said that they like in some way also enjoy such underwear. I just like totally never pictured that, and I am still not sure the guys are not pulling my leg.

Shalom

6:50 PM
SemBoy said...
I think Elisheva hates me. I think I was the only guy who admitted to sharing her affinity for sleepwear and she ignored me. All we get is this generic last comment at how surprised she was to hear this, when I was the only one to say it! I was also not totally tongue-in-cheek when I told her to ask the Frumteens moderator (OK 95%). She skipped ME from her list of responses to people on this blog.

7:30 PM
The Tailor said...
Elisheva,

feeling attractive is not just a girl issue. now, for most guys that doesn't involve lace :) Seriously though, everything we wear in one form or another is an expression of who we are. I have clothes (under and over) for weekdays, shabbos and even dates. Each occasion has its own personality so to speak and what i wear helps my "mindset" so to speak.

I think Judaism is about balance. nothing is inherently good or bad it has elements of both and it is up to us to choose how we use them. I think feeling good about onesself is key to living a happy life and i believe hashem wants us to be happy and serve him in happiness.

you are right, al ot of the focus seems to b on hopefully soon to be future circumstances for you. even in current circumstances though obviously feeling attractive is important to and for you. If nice underwear helps you feel good about yourself, I think that is great. Judaism in modern society seems to have become about the what and not the why. I meet so many "fFB" peopl who are envious of a Baal teshuva because they see us as making choices and knowing the "why." I think a ramban i saw once fits in perfectly. He was talking about someone, i apologize for not being good with hebrew phrases, that does everything according to the letter of the law but still isn't necessarily a good person. I believe he went on to say that wao ne of the characteristics of the 2nd temple period was that people did according to the halacha but that is all and they merited to have the temple destroyed. If they would have gone above and beyond so to speak, hashem may have responded in kind and saved the temple.

When you are single, especially if you are dting is is important to do what you can to look and feel attractive. when you are married, I think it is important to keep that up for your spouse, both for men and for women.

keep your ead up sheva, you have a lot of support here no matter what your underwear drawer looks like.

7:39 PM
Halfnutcase said...
thanks semgirl...

and wow half the thoughts on here i never had a clue about... elisheva, as usual this is a beautifull post.

9:01 PM
Elisheva said...
SemBoy, I don't really hate too many people, but I do hate it if someone doesn't read and then says stuff about what he should have read. The Chainik Hocker, NormalChasid and CJ have ALL said in comments ON THIS POST that they do the same. That is besides guys who may have e-mailed me who didn't say it in public so I am not even like counting them. So please don't get all razzled up. At least now you got a response just for you :-)!

And the frumteens thing I know nothing about. I like am so new here, I just found these blogs and started blogging and haven't gone much further online. But I figured if you yourself said they say stupid stuff, so like why bother asking them.

Tailor, thank you so much for your kind words. Lots of good stuff. And once I was scrolling back to check on which guys spoke about their underwear for SemBoy's sake, I passed one of your old comments I meant to mention as well.

The quote from Shlomo Carlebach was so beautiful. Like I don't know alot of his stuff (my father does), but I never heard that.

Questions bring us together and answers tear us apart.

Shalom

9:14 PM
Halfnutcase said...
random and insegnificant thought:

if to be humble is not thinking you aren't all that, but not flaunting it, and attributing all of it to hashem (you know a fool says he's something he's not, a humble person attributes it not to their own effort... etc)

mabye tznius is knowing you're... well "attractive" and just not needing to flaunt it. and not using it to do so?(and not totaly supressing it, but respecting it?)

sorry i really don't have that much of a way with words. just a random 2 cents i thought of.

10:07 PM
Semgirl said...
Elisheva, it is so totally obvious.. that the boys want to do more than pull your leg, but we won't go there..

11:00 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Semgirl:

No comment.

12:15 AM
turquoiseblue said...
Wow. What a great post.

I wonder what I would do if my daughter come home with leapord-print underwear... On the one hand, I remember my mother making a big fuss if I bought just black, (okay a little lace), and she "couldn't understand". Now my mother in general wasn't much into clothing, whereas I was - so we always pretty much clashed in that dept. I could NEVER understand her though when she was so very upset with a little frilly underwear and stuff... UNTIL NOW. I could see myself worrying/wondering if my daughter's latest (future :)shopping spree is a symptom of potentially worse stuff... like will she stop there? On the other hand, I remember enjoying pretty undies as well as perfumed body lotion after a shower... Just to "feel feminine", as Elisheva put it.

I wonder what the right approach should be... (I am not too far away from such a potential situation with my almost 10 year old daughter)

Another similar issue I remember having is shaving my legs (was quite young, true) but my mother almost had a fit... in a nice way though... she was begging me to explain to her WHY I would need to do that now...

I do agree with some commentators that feel that girls are encouraged to supress their femininity in unecessary areas - to the detriment of many (future)marriages...

But we all have a choice. Like for example - I "knew" that I wasn't doing stuff my mother was "afraid of" so I felt totally comfortable doing some stuff privately (within paremeters of halacha/hashkafa) just to "maintain" my necessary level of femininity and sensuality... for when it was appropriate (marriage), and not only that - but like Semgirl mentioned something (similar?)- elevated to kedusha.

There is no question that unecessary rigidity in such areas as discussed in this post - causes much "frigidity" and frustrations in many marriages later on.

The key is to have a proper balance. And Elisheva, you REALLY seem to have it.

Can't wait for you to find your guy and being able to share it ALL with him, you seem to be an all-around amazing girl!

(but then who will blog about such sensitive and thought-provoking issues?)

TB

1:15 AM
ari-chai said...
LE7 wrote “it is a real haskafa question, with no bearing on my own background, but in general how much can we let the sexual animal inside of us out, even if only in our private bedroom?”
A couple of points:
Yes this is a haskafa question.
However depending on your background the responses can be very different. Who asks a question is definitely part of the answer, certainly in hashkafa issues.
Feeling sensual is not the same as “sexual animal” being released. This last point is the subject of a long standing argument which is evident in the Gemara – and later sources. I believe that one side - the more permissive is normative, while the other ascetic position is legitimate – if both parts of the couple are on the same wavelength.
In today’s generation when we are bombarded with sexuality – and for many people the walls have come down from the shtetel - we need to allow that which is not prohibited, otherwise we face a potential disaster. There are some communities where perhaps all or most of the girls are more eidel in your mother’s definition (I believe this is the case in some of the chassidishe communities in Israel) in such a situation purchasing intimate apparel of a certain type would be confusing, in other communities it would be liberating. The haskafa issue here is definitely contextual.

4:28 AM
Elisheva said...
HNC - Random, but very nice thoughts.

TB - Thanx for joining and for understanding. It is nice to know that like I am not the only one who like came up on this issue. I always figured like I'm sure loads of girls go through the same stuff, but it isn't exactly discussed. So it is nice to see here that it is a pretty normal growing up thing.

And FYI what I basically like and was the point of my article was like you said, the color, lacy things that we just like and makes us feel good. The leaopard-print was I guess part of my figuring out who I was. Also I think if my mother would have left me alone and just left it at, "but just make sure they're nice and feminine, not crazy," I don't know if I would even have bought that.

AC - I can see how answers depend on the type of person and community. I just think the Torah must have an ideal. Like so should we rather be like those sheletered girls who would get confused with such underwear, or should we know stuff, have the limits clear, and have no need for confusion. And maybe that will give us the chance for happier marriages and selves.

Cause I don't think that these girls from these communities you describe don't get confused anyway. I think they jus't don't get answers. Like just because you never tell a girl anything and keep her sheltered, do you think nature won't kick in and she'll become curious? Like do sheltered boys not start figuring stuff out as they get older? If we keep it all under wraps, maybe it is just like institutionalizing the confusion.

I once heard that where we think (or are told in my type of community) that in Europe no one knew anything about this stuff is not true. It could be that they knew way more just were mature about it and kept it quiet and didn't need to go public with everything. Like girls knew about their mother going to mikva and learned from them etc. So they obviously were told WAY more than us, quite openly. So maybe they did know, and were in touch, and kept in private like I am suggesting keeping our feminity strong but to ourselves. Like maybe they were just very mature about it. It is because we are immature that we have to hide all this stuff maybe. But is that an ideal?

Shalom

9:09 AM
turquoiseblue said...
When I discuss such similar issues with my parents now, as a parent myself, how my take on things are a bit different then theirs... (I try to explain my position, sometimes defend...) they'll usually ask "but aren't you afraid you're kids will do EVEN LESS than that?" Like, if we didn't allow certain things, and you do, don't you think they're going to ALSO go a level lower? and if so, then what are your grandchildren going to look like?:

And this kind of reasoning for sure leaves me with food for thought. And I hope and pray that I have the right "balanced" approach... and my being more lenient in certain areas won't be a cue to my children to do even "less"...

Yet, I believe strongly that not being overly restricting in unecessary areas - and teaching them how to differentiate between halacha/hashkafa/frumkeit/minhagim and the significance of each - and what's "negotiable" and what's not... I think those are the proper basic tools for chinuch.

Like, I would hope as a teenager my daughter feels okay to buy nice, feminine underwear, but understands that it is meant to encourage expression of her feminine, even sensual side *privately* - but not her sexual side. Not before marriage.

1:14 PM
ari-chai said...
yeah - the Torah ideal is husband and wife naked in the garden of eden - with a divine breeze blowing. Just keep the snakes away and it would heavenly :)

1:14 PM
ClooJew said...
ari,

Now that, lulei demistafina, could be the title of Elisheva's book:

"Naked in the Garden of Eden."

1:49 PM
The Tailor said...
Good shabbos Sheva

10:54 AM
Elisheva said...
Like, I would hope as a teenager my daughter feels okay to buy nice, feminine underwear, but understands that it is meant to encourage expression of her feminine, even sensual side *privately* - but not her sexual side. Not before marriage.

TB: Is there a difference between sensual and sexual? Like I'm sure there is, but what is it? And the sexual side we cannot express even in private? Won't that also be necessary one day (IY"H soon...)? So if it is in private, why the difference? Why not differentiate between expressing private things publicly and keeping them special and private?

1:31 AM
David said...
I have to say..I am totally flabergasted by the interest this is garnering.
All I see here is a typical case of a parent being overprotective. Every parent is guilty of this to some degree.
Wearing sexy underwear is not a jewish Halachic Issue as far as I'm concerned. It's about self indulgence. The guy who got a big bonus and buys himself a nice car is guilty of the same thing.
There's no question that the fact that the issue is lingerie and the submitter is a nice 19 year old girl is what's causing all this interest ;-)

D

2:01 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
David:

That hurt.

8:59 PM
Elisheva said...
David, I don't think so. Nobody will tell you like a car is morally wrong. Maybe just extravagant. But loads of frum ppl are taught, or are under the impression, that any expression or knowledge about sensuality is like from the worst sins.

And I don't know about why the boys comment here. Maybe you are right, but like you read the blog too it seems. But it's not just the lingerie issue, cause loads of ladies commented here too, and it's like not for us what it is for a guy.

I think there is an issue of right or wrong here which is very confusing in the frum community more than a regular extravagance. Although I agree with you that it should be perfectly OK, and just that, a regular extra to buy.

9:35 PM
David said...
Elisheva,
I'm a parent and I know I overreact sometimes ..not out of ill will but out of concern...even though my children are still young. It's not so far fetched to think that a leapard print set of undies are meant to be seen by others...well who are these others.?
Having said that your parents...have to trust you..
Youre old enough.

D

9:50 PM
tuesdaywishes said...
I think your mom realized she was out of line and told you Bubby to take you shopping. If wearing bright colors or funky patterns gives you a little extra confidence or some more spring in your step, go for it! It's a great way to feel good. (Feeling happy and confident makes you more attractive too, if that's what you want.)

11:09 PM
Elisheva said...
Maybe this is silly to post, but I just want to clarify. The leopard-prink was like a one time thing which made things blow up. I think I was like trying to figure out stuff I was starting to feel. I understand this is not the regular feminine stuff, though it actually has a feel that is like good but i cannot describe.

The stuff I mean in my post that I like, and I think should be perfectly normal for girls but causes such extreme reactions by some (Mom?) is the regular lacy, frilly, pastel-print or pastel colored stuff.

12:02 AM
Semgirl said...
I really don't want scare you, Shev, but I had this whole discussion with my mother over Shabbos, when my father and brothers were out of the house, and we had quality girl-talk time (guys you might want to just chill here, or NOT READ FURTHER !!)

Anyway, she said that when she was my age, she wore bikini bottoms, and thongs privately, and it was a very normal part of growing up. Adolescent girls all need to experiment, and go thru a stage.
Now as a middle age woman, she only likes very comfortable simple cotton. She told me that I think your friend's mother may have issues that she is dealing with from her childhood or traumatic experiences that occured to her, and it has nothing to do with Haskafa.

But I guess you have to also take into acct that when she went to HS and Sem, things were a LOT more normal. There is such an over-emphasis on these things today, that it actually has the opposite effect. It really weirds girls out, adversely effecting marriages, and tends to make you much more horny.

12:34 AM
Semgirl said...
I really don't want scare you, Shev, but I had this whole discussion with my mother over Shabbos, when my father and brothers were out of the house, and we had quality girl-talk time (guys you might want to just chill here, or NOT READ FURTHER !!)

Anyway, she said that when she was my age, she wore bikini bottoms, and thongs privately, and it was a very normal part of growing up. Adolescent girls all need to experiment, and go thru a stage.
Now as a middle age woman, she only likes very comfortable simple cotton. She told me that I think your friend's mother may have issues that she is dealing with from her childhood or traumatic experiences that occured to her, and it has nothing to do with Haskafa.

But I guess you have to also take into acct that when she went to HS and Sem, things were a LOT more normal. There is such an over-emphasis on these things today, that it actually has the opposite effect. It really weirds girls out, adversely effecting marriages, and tends to make you much more horny.

12:34 AM
ms. shtark said...
hey elisheva, this is a great post. i am only commenting on the post because i didn't have the patience to read all 77 comments. i totally know what you mean by wanting to express your femininity in such a way. it's as if you took all those thoughts straight out of my head and put them here. i am also a very modest person and i follow all the halachos (this is not a negative thing - i agree with all those halachos and i follow them wholeheartedly) but i also like the frilly and fun underwear. baruch hashem, my mom thinks it's funny and she just gets a kick out of it. (she does think it's ridiculous tho that i have so much of it)
however, i also have some friends whose moms were very against it. my friend's way of dealing with it was to save all the fun stuff we bought for marriage so then her mom didn't know abt it.
i say go bubby go! your bubby reminds me of this story i had with my aunt. i was staying by my 60 yr. old aunt in n.y. because i had a date. she was having a shmooze with me in my room and she saw some cute underwear in my luggage. you'll never believe what she said: hey aliza, u gotta wear those 2 night when u go out! i looked at her horrified and she was like: "what, u'll feel really good abt urself and then ull be like really confident! neways, suffice it 2 say i was completely shocked that my stodgy old aunt said that 2 me!

neways, back to the old thread, baruch hashem my mom understands that this is part of being a female. we like lacy, frilly stuff and that doesn't begin and end with childhood. it just begins to manifest itself in different ways in our "old age"! great post, keep them coming!!!

12:02 PM
Elisheva said...
TW - No such luck. My mother like wouldn't talk to me after she saw what I bought that whole night, and I saw she was like only holding herself back from her usual tirade because I told her I got them with Bubby. She seemed a bit surprised, but I think like she thinks my bubby spoils me anyway (OK, she does a drop, lol) so this is just part of it. Maybe if I'm lucky it'll make Mommy think a little bit.

SG - I never thought of it in that way, like maybe it's from her own childood/teenage years. I always pictured she just took all the stuff they teach you in school to the extreme. But maybe there is a reason why she did that, though I would not know it.

I wasn't sure what you meant by the last paragraph. And you are lucky you can talk to your mother like that. I so can't have a good old girl talk with mine. And were you floored with what she told you? I was. In my family my father is the more open-minded one, but I could never talk to him about this stuff.

Ms. Shtark - Thanx for commenting. It definitely seems loads of girls feel the way I do. And it also seems I am not the only one with the problem. Obviously lots of mothers go overboard with this stuff. And cute about the aunt. Same way with Bubby. I was like totally not expecting it from her. Guess the older generation is like more in touch, they just keep it hidden. I think that is the perfect feminity.

Shalom

2:33 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Shtark: if you don't have patience to read all 79 comments, just read mine. Those are the funny ones.

:)

3:56 PM
Halfnutcase said...
most people mellow out by the time they get older. bubby might well have been more extreem than you're mother. also mabye you're mother has a real reason for being so touchy about it? perhaps you should ask. kibud av v'aim you know. (ask bubby if you can't ask you're mother she may well remember what made you're mother so extreem)

5:27 PM
ThinkingJew said...
Hey. Very interesting post.

Let me tell you. It is bound that a guy will see what you're wearing at some point. It always happens. Girls don't wear anything under their shirts, so when the buttons seperate, we see. And let me tell you, when I see a girl with a lacy bra I will think about her for way longer than one without. A girl has zero clue what a guy is, and we have to help each other.

It's not eye candy. More like eye mariujana.

6:23 PM
ms. shtark said...
hey i have a really funny incident to add to this thread. i run a gown rental and there was this chasidish teenage girl with her mom there and she was trying on gowns. anyways, she was a bit embarassed 2 try on in front of us ppl and we soon found out why: she was wearing these undies that said on it: "cute flirt". we all had a really good laugh and one of the other women there were like: " are u sure u're chasidish?" to which they replied: us girls can have fun 2! that was a real eye opener.
all i say is that if it is kept hidden and it is u're enjoyable little secret then it's healthy and go for it. it is when u announce it that it's wrong.
i do feel a bit wierd talking abt this on a blog but it's good b/c no one knows me. and sometimes it feels good to just get these thoughts off my chest!
also thinking jew, i know what u r talking abt with the buttons, i just did not realize that guys look that close, i better watch out, thanks for the tip!
chainik hocker, yeah your posts are funny

8:06 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Eye candy: well put.

Which makes Bleemy's blog eye crack- really addicted, and brain damaging.

Kidding!

8:57 PM
turquoiseblue said...
E - you ask: "TB: Is there a difference between sensual and sexual? Like I'm sure there is, but what is it? And the sexual side we cannot express even in private? Won't that also be necessary one day (IY"H soon...)? So if it is in private, why the difference? Why not differentiate between expressing private things publicly and keeping them special and private?"

Well... this is how I look at it: Being sensual is sort of the pre-requisite to being sexual... it's like the "auto-pilot" that should always be on and ready, but not "ignited"... it's sexual when a "flame is burning"... Igniting the actual fire should be done in the right time and place... and is totally controllable. Now, if there is no "pilot" (always on), then forget it, there's not a chance for igniting a fire when it needs to be lighted...

About expressing the sexual side in private: I don't think it is proper. Although everyone goes through some experiences where they get in touch with that side of themselves before/outside of marriage - it is obviously not being directed towards what it was intended for... which is - towards your "other half". Marriage is the only place where it is "elevated" to a level - where two people become as one...where the mundane and holy mingle and reach its peak... Outside of that, it serves no good purpose - even in private - it's basically indulging in "personal gratification"... which is not really what we Torah jews ascribe to...

So while I think it is proper to "listen and learn" I don't think it is proper to "experiment" or ENCOURAGE our "sexual side" before/outside of marriage - even in private...

But, being in touch with our "potential" - which I see as the "sensual" side of ourselves - is in my humble opinion and experience - a must!

That's my take on it, for all its worth.

TB

1:12 AM
Elisheva said...
TB, gosh, I think I know what you are refering to and I guess being pretty guilty I have to think about it, though I see your point. I guess this is like the whole hashkafa thing about marriage and why we are sexual beings etc. i have to give this thought.

TY - So you are saying tht not only do we have to dress keeping in mind that guys will see us, but also we should keep in mind guys peeping under our blouses?! Puhleeze. I don't think we are responsible for that.

Shalom

9:44 AM
Semgirl said...
TB:

I was actually thinking of writing a post on the very point you are discussing, but Tznius won't allow it. Its a shame that there isn't a way to discuss some matters that are really bothering me with an ONLY female readership.

Guys, no offense, I assure you I have lots to write about that concerns everyone.

10:31 AM
Halfnutcase said...
SemGirl:
none taken :-) plenty of topics i'd like to discuss also but can't for similar reasons...

6:28 PM
shira22 said...
Elisheva,now is the time to wear pretty, lacy underwear. Singleness is a time to learn about your sensuality. Enjoy being single, savor it!!! When I was single, I was like you and Elisheva. I went out with cute boys, cuddled with them and enjoyed them and enjoyed myself. I wore silky, lacy bras and panties in all kinds of luscious colors!
When I was 27 I was finally ready to settle down. Two weeks before the chasana, I put away all my sexy bras and panties for good. I replaced them with the loose cotton panties and sensible bras that a respectably married lady should wear. I got rid of my sexy baby doll nighties and replaced them with long sleaved, tzniusdik nighties. I had my fun and was now ready for a respectable married life. I also made sure I had a proper, plain colored tichel to cover my hair when I slept.
My husband is not only the father of my children, but my best friend as well. The passionate caresses and heated kisses of my single days have been replaced by love and
blissful companionship. Because we both enjoyed ourselves when we were single, We don't require more than a peck on the cheek from each other. BH I have a beautiful, wholesome family. I want the same for my children, so I will also allow them to enjoy being single.
Contrary to popular belief, marriage is not an opportunity to explore your sexuality. It is the next, more mature stage in your life. Enjoy being single!!!!

8:33 PM
shira22 said...
Sorry, semgirl. since it is your blog I should be saying you and Elisheva. I really enjoy your blog. Remember, girls, you're only young and single once. Enjoy it and don't feel guilty!!!

8:42 PM
AnonyOne said...
I sure hope Shira22 is kidding about getting cotton panties AFTER she got married! As you can tell from many bloggers...the husbands do want their wives sexy at home and may be too embarrassed to say so.
Besides, sexy undies can put you in the mood, too, not just him, by making you feel pretty.

8:49 PM
Elster said...
So Shira22 - what you are saying is it's better to fool around before you get married but once you tie the knot ur sex life should be over? Ummm.....

10:16 PM
The Tailor said...
Shira22,

no offense but you comments to this blog were quite depressing. You ha sensuality, sexiness and physical thrills before you got married and when you got married you nailed it all shut in a box and share nothing more than a peck on the cheek with the person you should have the rest with?

SG, Sheva, please do not take any lessons from his person. i'm very glad it has worked out for you shira but you are no example to follow and would be doing these girls a tremendous disservice to advise them so.

10:19 PM
Semgirl said...
Shira, with all due respect, I am willing to bet that if I spoke to your husband, I would get a completely different story.

11:13 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Oh PULeaze, Shira... you have NO CLUE what you're talking about.

SG - I totally second that. In fact, something just occured to me. There's a certain really nice, really smart, really Jewish, really sweet blogger - a "family man" who would seem to fit the profile of this woman's husband in the "story"... ;)

It would be terribly sad if such a scenario as Shira writes would be true... Highly doubt it though. At least not as she "puts it down".

12:11 AM
shira22 said...
For the record,guys, I keep my old silk stuff in a box by my parent's house(lots of fun memories). My sex life is not over, it's just taken a different, more mature form. There is no repression going on and we are both very happy.
More importantly, ours is the type of happiness that will endure even when we have to replace our cotton undies with Depends (adult diapers).
SG and Elisheva,not all men are shallow and sex crazed. Enjoy what the shallow young boys can give you(within reason). Once you've had your fill, I hope you find truly good men who will love and appreciate you for yourselves. When you do, your underwear won't matter in the least.

12:12 AM
shira22 said...
turquiseblue,although my husband is really nice,really smart, really Jewish and really sweet, I don,t think he blogs. My "story", however, is absolutely true.
What's really sad is these shallow,superficial men who are kvetching because the woman who is their wife and the mother of their children won't fulfill their every sexual fantasy. That, folks, is pathetic.
I consider my husband to be very special. SG and Elisheva, I give you both a bracha that you should marry someone just as special.

12:30 AM
Elisheva said...
OMG! Just checked in and wow! Shira, like I obviously can't say for sure you are wrong, but what you say totally does not jive with anything I read here or picked up from stuff in real life.

I really wonder what your husband would say. If for you it works, so be it, but I would like to enjoy thrills with my husband that is unique for him and nothing I did with any shallow guy when I was single. I don't think the Torah view of pleasing your husband is that it is shallow. Look at the women of mitzrayim, and that was in looks as well, not just "mature", peck-on-the-cheek sex.

I wonder if because you enjoyed yourself in your sensuality with lacy undies and stuff too much with guys before you got married, you like felt guilty and so that's why you so tried to hide it away and not make it part of your relationship with him.

I totally enjoy my sensuality with lacy stuff and luscious fabrics, but just myself. I hope to feel guilt-free to share it with my hubby when the time comes.

Shalom

12:58 AM
The Tailor said...
Sheva,

if it were tznius and allowed, i'd give you a big hug and kiss right now. Well said, well said. i'm glad you ae taking no advice from her, that is the last thing future homes of klal yisroel need. We were created with "natures" both men and women and to deny them is to deny our creator because he created us this way. Obviously the challenge is to find levels of balance no matter what stage in life you are at or what issue(s) you are dealing with.

2:07 AM
turquoiseblue said...
Shira... for sure a great relationship doesn't "need" all the "accoutrements" - if that is something you're trying to say...
And having a great more-than-peck-on-the-cheek life without it - is definitely a sign of a maturing, deeper relationship...

BUT, the way you put it down in your original comment - is simply preposterous.

You yourself hint that... when you write "it has taken on a more mature form"... BUT, Each relationship has is its very OWN lifespan - it starts out at the infancy stage and progresses... (you can't "puzzle together" certain vital stages from one relationship to the other)

You can't just skip that "crazy in love" experience over - and land gracefully to where you say you are. First steps first. Then comes the deeper love - and it is not mutually exclusive to being "crazy in love" (you know, with a sprinkle of frilly something here, lacy stuff there... for an extra spark...)

Come on, that's like building a foundation one one side of the property, and the rest of the house on another... aint' much use for the first, and the latter won't stand up to a little stronger wind and rain...

You girls, save it for where you AND your hubby will enjoy every aspect of it like you couldn't ever as a single!

(Alright... I think I've run out of ways to try to make my point!)

2:37 AM
ClooJew said...
It's funny how, lulei demistafina, everyone who comments is taken so seriously.

Shira's comments are so mindbogglingly backward (the tichel while she sleeps) that I have to believe this comment is a joke.

It's called satire, people. Don't be so gullible!

And don't give me any hooey about how Shira could be the real thing because you know people who sleep with tichels. I do to. But they're not posting on blogs bragging about how much action they got when they were single.

11:05 AM
KiddushClubGuy said...
when you are raised in a frum household you are indoctorinated whether your belief is sincere or not. I am certain that in the Amish & Mennonite communities there are similar blogs echoing similar dis-satistactions. Ever see the movie " A Walk On The Moon"? It depicts bunglaow colony life in the late 60's. A most memorable line is when a non religious girl asks a frum girl who is working as a cousleor in the day camp..DID YOU EVER KISS A BOY WITH YOUR MOUTH OPEN?. The girl replies I CAN'T EVEN TEAR TOILET PAPER ON SHABBOS!

11:20 AM
ms. shtark said...
sorry shira, i think u got it a little backwards. u should be feeling more sexy with your husband and not with these other guys before marriage. i am not saying this out of personal experience but out of discussions with my married brothers and from what i am seeing on all other blogs. like elisheva said, i also like to wear lacy frilly stuff but NO ONE else sees it. it is just my little secret which is as it should remain until i have a hubby to share it with

11:38 AM
The Tailor said...
Oh CJ, how glorious it must be to be you.

11:38 AM
ClooJew said...
Just pointing out the obvious, tailor.

11:47 AM
shira22 said...
Elisheva, my husband is the only man I ever loved. That is much more special than sex or underwear. He is my soul mate and my best friend. What can be more beautiful than that? We please each other in ways you couldn't even begin to understand.
Someone else mentioned the nature of men and women. It is precisely because of the nature of men and women that a marriage built primarily on sex won't last.
Lastly, I feel absolutely no guilt about my single days. I have some great memories, but nobody is 19 forever.

1:14 PM
shira22 said...
I guess I didn't answer everyone in my last post. Cloojew, the last thing I wanna do is brag about the "action" I got when I was single. You should change your screen name to cloolessjew. You missed my point entirely.
What I an saying is that people go through different stages in life and they should make the most of each one.When I was 19 y/o, I was a young girl learning about life.
I am now 40 y/o. I've settled down and have different enjoyments in life.

1:24 PM
shira22 said...
Oh yeah, tailor, I agree with your latest comment.

1:26 PM
shira22 said...
turquiseblue, you sound like an intelligent woman. Love is something that grows and deepens gradually.
To look foward to marriage because one is sexually starved is not a good foundation either. Sexual thrills aren't hard to find. Genuine and enduring love is.

1:33 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Kiddushclub: How would the Amish and the Menonnites blog, exactly? Where do they plug in thier computers?

Maybe they blog by smoke signal? And they use Lag Baomer bonfires for broadband.

Everyone else: stop getting your panties in a twist, as it were, over this subject. Nobody is really adding anything to this subject (least of all me), just saying the same things over and over. How about this:

Resolved; that any articles of clothing visible to the general public shall be regulated by the accepted definition of tznius in the community in which the clothing-wearer shall choose to live, AND

Resolved; any article of clothing NOT visible to the general public shall be the sole business of the clothing-wearer when worn in a private and/or intimate setting AND

Resolved; anyone wanting to regulate clothing worn in private settings is either

1) a nudnik,
2) a pervert, or
3) both. AND

Resolved; everyone likes imagining persons opposite wearing y undergarments, even if they pretend they don't. As long as it stays in the realm of the imagination, alis git.

So, everyone (especially you, Shira, and you CJ) stop stirring the chulent.

Just one am haaretz's opinion.

4:00 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Uh, Chainik, do I have your permission to try this once more...?

Shira - marriage is UNIQUE in that your best friend IS your lover. Or should be. If its either one without the other, it's a marriage in name only.

4:25 PM
KiddushClubGuy said...
THE Ayatolas indoctorinate mothers to dress their daughters to seem invisible.Let's face it Ultra Orthodoxy today is a fundementalist movement. I guess it always was. just an observation not meant to ruffle anyones feathers

4:28 PM
shira22 said...
turquiseblue,having your best friend as your lover is not unique to marriage.Marriage is a legal, halachic and social contract. The other part is the personal relationship between a man and woman. If a married couple have the zchus to grow old together and become too sickly for certain things, does that mean they no longer have a marriage?
BTW, we didn't pick our wonderful children in a cabbage patch.

4:46 PM
Elster said...
Call me stupid if you will CJ but I disagree. I think Shira22 is for real. Completely misguided, but for real...

5:02 PM
shira22 said...
Elster, are you happily married? Are you married at all? How long have you been married? BH, my husband and I have been happily married for over 15 years! They say the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Whatever works....

5:47 PM
shira22 said...
...perhaps you just can't conceptualize what I'm saying, Elster.

5:50 PM
Elisheva said...
OMG! This is like going totally crazy.

Chainik, very well put. Are you a lawyer? If not, perhaps you should be.

CJ - I don't know if Shira in her real life does what she is describing, but the issue is the lifestyle she is describing, so like we can deal with that.

TB - I think you are making the most sense.

Shira - We all know there is more to marriage, and like when you grow old or chalila were something to happen to either person, there has to be more. But if when the other parts are possible and it isn't done and there is no burning need for it, like it just seems something is wrong with that. As far as the proof and pudding, do we know your hubby isn't one those guys ogling us girls in ShopRite, cause he misses something?

Shalom

6:19 PM
shira22 said...
Elisheva, my husband is not one of the guys ogling you in Shoprite. I know this because:
a)he got all the ogling and other stuff out of his system when he was single.
b)he has more respect for females than to ogle you.
If a guy is going to do that all the fun and games with his own wife isn't going to stop him. Men are either refined or they're not. A wife has no control over that. All women can do is try to marry good, decent, refined men.

6:46 PM
Elster said...
Closing in on 7 very happy years - 2 kids, the whole 9 yards. I can "conceptualize what you are saying", I just happen to think it's a bunch of nonsense (lulei demistafina, of course - sorry CJ)

8:07 PM
Semgirl said...
Shira, I have not laughed so hysterically in a long time. Thank you. All I can say is Kudos to your husband. Like, he has so totally fooled you. In a way, its beautiful, though that your age, you still so head over heels in love that you are convinced that he is a total malach..

8:11 PM
ClooJew said...
Shira,

Let's leave alone for the moment whether or not you did what you say you did, and discuss instead the issues you raise, as Elisheva (who is the blogmeister, after all) suggests.

So let's get to it, shall we:

"Singleness is a time to learn about your sensuality....Contrary to popular belief, marriage is not an opportunity to explore your sexuality."—Shira22

You seem, lulei demistafina, to be advocating physical experimentation and "getting it out of your system" while single, and delaying marriage until the mid-to-late twenties, at which time sexuality can and should be turned off.

"I had my fun and was now ready for a respectable married life....Because we both enjoyed ourselves when we were single, We don't require more than a peck on the cheek from each other."—Shira22

You indicate that being sexually free while single is the foundation ("Because...") for a good, "respectable" marriage later on.

"I want the same for my children, so I will also allow them to enjoy being single."—Shira22

You say you would raise your children to behave the same way in order that they become, in your words, "wholesome."

Assuming these are your positions, I have some questions.

(1) Are you saying that Halachah, which forbids premarital sex, is wrong, and in fact destructive, as it inhibits people and prevents wholesome marriages?

(2) Do you believe that people who were Shomer Negia while single have inferior, immature sex lives after they marry?

(3) If your daughter came home at three a.m., after a long night of passionate play with her boyfriend, would you greet her at the door and tell her how proud you are of her, and how she is laying the foundation to be a terrific wife and mother some day?

(4) If the answer to number 3 is Yes, does your husband agree?

8:24 PM
shira22 said...
Oh wow, I didn't realize I was the object of such controversy. If it wasn't sad it would be funny. I'm gonna try to do this on a first come first serve basis.
Elster,I'm very happy for you. May you have much nachas from your family. I've been married 15 years,have 4 children. We are both happy in every way. My only complaint is that my husband doesn't always pick up after himself. His only complaint is that I take too long to get ready when we go out. Very typical

8:37 PM
shira22 said...
Semgirl, you are 19 years old and single. What could you possibly know about men and marriage?
The only unconditional love in this world is that of a parent for a child. If I am in love with my husband, it's because he earned it.

8:43 PM
Elster said...
No offense shira, but I think you doth protest too much (in English - I think you are full of it)

8:57 PM
ms. shtark said...
woa, there has been alot going back and forth here. i think tho that cj's last comment has been the clincher. shira, no offense but do you realize how warped u sound? do u want all of ur 4 kids to lay around and experiment and then snuff it as soon as they get married???!!! I don't know u sound as if u have things a bit backwards. i think u should go to victoria secret like right now and buy the sexiest article of lingerie there and try it tonight and then tell me if i am wrong! maybe u don't know because "you bought comfy cotton stuff for mariage and have not looked back since."

10:06 PM
shira22 said...
Elster, that was a very juvenile response. Mature people can disagree without becoming offensive.

9:12 AM
The Tailor said...
Shira22,

With all due repect (viewer discretion on what that level is), you are just giving people ammo against you. I think I am starting to see your point but beause of the way you are presenting points it is getting lost.

i think Cj made some excellent points and raised some excellent questions and eagerly look forward to reading your response.

i have some of my own though i would like to "discuss."

Before i do actually, Ms. Shtark, you were making an excellent and well stated point until you made the V.S. suggestion which was petty and not nice. Shira2 is just trying to help these girls and no matter what you may disagree on, it isn't nice to give her those types of suggestion, sarcastic or otherwise. She seems to have a good relationship with her husband and just because she comments here doesn't give us the right to blast her personally.

SG, again, with all due respect, your last comment was way out of line and extremely deisespectful. Stick to the points, don't make it personal. Don't tell another woman that her husband is fooling her, honestly how dare you? Please don't get defensive, am on you side but your comment was just pure chutzbah and not appropriate at all. also, you might want to avoid comments like "at your age" because it isnt respectful. you aren't always going to be 19.

now, shiraa22 you say:
"a)he got all the ogling and other stuff out of his system when he was single.
b)he has more respect for females than to ogle you."

It isn't just a respect issue. Also, even if your husband has managed to override man's nature and better himself (shkoiach to him) that is wonderful but for many man it is a difficult yetzer to fight and it doesnt make them disrespectful or a pervert to lost that battle sometimes.

"Oh wow, I didn't realize I was the object of such controversy."

Shira22, it is this way ecause the things you have said and the way you have portrayed your marriage is drastically different than what most people are used to and the way you have described it is something puritanical and something straight out of the "handmaid's tale."

"We are both happy in every way. My only complaint is that my husband doesn't always pick up after himself. His only complaint is that I take too long to get ready when we go out. Very typical"

yes, very typical and quite honestly the most normal thing you have said regarding your marriage, at least that people can relate to. Cj raised a bunch of questions i was laso thinking but i will not add on because i think his were well stated.

I'm glad you found someone you connect with so much and seem to be completely in sync with, i should be so lucky. i am curious and I apologize for being nosy but i ask as a learning tool for tachlis dating. sounds like both you and your husand "got things out of your system" before you two dated. Was this a topic of discussion or when you dated wer you simply "as is and moving forward?"

12:33 PM
ms. shtark said...
wow tailor, well put. i know my comment wasn't nice but i felt like saying it neways. and shira 22, i would also be interested if this was a topic of discussion during your dating.

1:45 PM
Elisheva said...
Wow again! I think there is a good reason that Shira answered SG and Elster, but still like needs time to formulate an answer to CJ. Guess the silence speaks volumes.

Also I asked a kollel guy I know if a guy ever gets ogling "out of his system". He said that Shira is right that to ogle as opposed to look subtly depends like on the type of guy, if he is a mentch or not. But like to look doesn't go out of the system until a guy dies. He said this is mentioned all over gemara and sefarim and places, and I can think of alot of ma'amorim I know that say this.

Also he says any doctor will tell you this, and if a guy says he feels no need to stare after his teenage years he prob has a hormone prob and needs a doctor (if what he says is true...)

Shalom

7:20 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
"Chainik, very well put. Are you a lawyer? If not, perhaps you should be."

Hahahahaahahahahahahahaahaha!

Also, slachtoni. I shouldn't have tried to close a topic on a blog not my own.

And, Shira, you gotta be kidding me. Any guy who claims not to check out any and all girls in visual range (as Elisheva's "kollel guy friend" points out, ogling and covertly glancing depeds on weathe or not he thinks he's going to get caught) is either lying, dead, or both.

This is not to say that you and your husband ar not happily maried- it sounds like you are. But you need to accept that every man has urges and they don't go away because he steps on a shnapps cup.

The entire point of all these rules and regulations regarding tznius is to acknowledge these urges and attempt to bring them under some semblance of control.

2:53 AM
Jew Speak said...
One of the kicks I get out of growing up secular and becoming religious is to see what a different world the ffb's grow up in. When I was deciding whether or not to become religious one of the big benefits was that my kids struggles/issues would not be mine.

In my hometown not only were girls not concerned with the type of underwear they wore (that nobody would see) they were not concerned with wearing only their underwear to school! It is not uncommon in public school to see a girl wearing shorts that could almost be called underwear... or a top that most would wear to the beach.

My High School had a nursery school on campus so that the girls could leave their kids somewhere so that they could finish high school. None of them were married of course and the Dad's were nowhere to be found.

So although I understand this issue is a real one to you it is refreshing for me. G-d willing one day when I am married with kids the worst issue my daughter will be dealing with is what type of underwear she will buy for "herself."

By the way it is difficult to read your post without visualising what you are speaking about. I would keep that in mind next time you post for all your frum male readers ;)

p.s. (BarbaraFromCalifornia whats up with that picture? Can you remove it??)

6:53 AM
David said...
I'm gone for a few days..and the conversation is spiraling outta control.
The bottom line is..people are so complex and complicated. Even those that you think you know might be hiding a whole world of desires..deep inside.

10:11 AM
Semgirl said...
Ok, so like how much longer are we going to beat this dead horse.. as scintilating as it is. Elisheva, are you going to write a post about the school chaos?

1:50 PM
Elster said...
Honestly, I don't think anyone here should care less if Shira's husband is looking at other women or not. It's irrelevant.
So is, to some extent (at least for me), the original post regarding whether things seen only in private are ok or not.

What IS importnant, especially for those of you not yet married, is to undertand that there is no such thing as a perfect marraige. Everyone disagrees and everyone "fights". When 2 people live together, 2 personalities collide, there is tension. No matter who the 2 people are. So if someoe is telling you they have a "perfect marraige" with no substantive disagreements, they are either (i) lying to you, (ii) lying to themselves, or (iii) living in a place I like to call Fairy-Tale Ville. And if someone repeats over and over "My marraige is just so perfect", it's probably choice (ii). It's just important to know this.

2:07 PM
ClooJew said...
Sem, There's a, lulei demistafina, school chaos?

3:00 PM
Elisheva said...
First of all JewSpeak, if you read my post, I DID put a notice for all male readers, though none seem too concerened. Kudos to Josh if that is why he has stayed away. I hope there is no worse reason.

SG, like I can't even figure out what exactly is going on. When I do, maybe I'll post my thoughts.

Shalom and Good Shabbos

4:18 PM
kishmech said...
Not gonna bother reading 136 comments, to see if anyone has said similar, but if you're wearing sensible cotton underwear you feel like an old lady, if i'm wearing something pretty/sexy you feel more feminine and in a funny way young and confident. You're young, c'mon. It's nothing to do with attracting anything.

12:13 PM
Semgirl said...
Kishmech : I am not going to discourage you from reading all the comments as many are very well written. However, you summed it up well. Straight and to the point without a lot of infighting back and forth..

BTW I love your blog..

8:12 PM
kishmech said...
I'm sure they do have something to say..........I just don't have the time.
Blush......I think it has lost it's sparkle actually.

10:50 AM
Anonymous said...
I sent my comments to your e mail address

yosef

10:52 AM
Anonymous said...
gosh i think your blog is a testimony against charedi education. i dont think ive ever read a blog about such rubbish in my life.have u got nothing more important to talk about than your underwear-at least talk torah or something.were u in sem in bayit vegan last year?

8:22 AM
Semgirl said...
Anon: My mother always told me if you have somethinmg nice to say to someone, dont say anything.

What possible purpose does this last comment serve other then to hurt someone's feelings? Two weeks before Rosh Hashana, shame on you !!

And then you dont even have guts to post with a s-name and email adress.

9:21 AM
Anonymous said...
what do u want to email me about anyway. my email adress is vehamevinyovin@hotmail.co.uk. see im not embarassed.

12:21 PM
ms. shtark said...
what i don't get, anon is that if u don't like it, don't add your 2 cents! no one is asking u 2 read it and it is a free world. this is elisheva's blog and she can write what she wants. i happen to be a person of substance and i still agree with what elisheva wrote and i thought this was a great topic. there are alot of blogs that get me upset esp. b.b.'s but i don't comment on it and i don't bother looking at her stuff anymore. i am not trying 2 b offensive, just wondering why u are?

1:23 PM
NormalJew said...
Hey, Ms Popular! I think after 145 comments, its time to post something new, no? LOL. I am kidding!!!

Peace!

NJ from NJ

2:58 PM
Elisheva said...
NJ, you are totally right, I have to get to it. Hopefully soon.

And notice everyone that anon like read the whole thing, so he definitely IS quite interested. Like he did come back even to check on his comment. Some guys just don't know how to deal with their feelings other than to make like silly comments. It's OK. I don't mind.

Shalom

6:32 PM
ClooJew said...
Semgirl,

To post hurtful comments anonymously is very low and, lulei demistafina, underserving of any kind of reply.

Don't waste your time responding to such rubbish.

8:24 PM
Semgirl said...
Lulei Demistefina ( hey I got it right ) you are totally right !!

I really should learn to just ignore the losers..

11:05 PM
Anonymous said...
i am not critcising your blog per se, more the educatoin system that causes someone's primary interests to be the friliness of their underwear.

6:31 AM
Semgirl said...
Anon: I don't quite understand what you are trying to say . Should the "education system" totally de-feminize the girls so that they don't wear or desire to wear such things, or should every Frum-girl blog just be a clone of Eishes Chayil and only discuss halacha and haskafa. In that case where do we discuss emotions, feelings and whats going on in our life ?

8:59 AM
ClooJew said...
This isn't a post about underwear. It's a post, lulei demistafina, about the larger issue of how girls and women are being educated and about their emotional responses to that education. This is only one example.

12:55 PM
Elisheva said...
Hi again. I like almost thought this post was dead for good already.

SemGirl, I checked and, luli dwhatever, you are one letter off, lol! At least we know it was an honest try, not a copy and paste like I would have done. Guess I'm lazy...

About the anon thing: I think it is good he stayed anonymous, cause his comments I think reflect sadly on wherever he went to school. Like every other guy and girl here got the point of the blog, which is seeing how broader issues reflect in the little things in life, and yes some silly gril-talk, which is perfectly normal. If a girl doesn't indulge in that, I pity her education.

But like this anon is like the only one who seems not to have grasped what all 150 comments did, and couldn't see past the undies.

At least I got something out of my experiment of what would happen like if I opened the comments to all. Oh well.

Shalom and Good Shabbos.

3:18 PM
Elisheva said...
Oh, and CJ, I like the pic this time.

3:19 PM
Elster said...
While I don't necessarily belive in overly negative posting y'all need to realize somethnig. by putting your thoughts out there for all to see, you are inviting people to comment on what you have to say. Some ppl will agree, some will not. Those who don't: Some will be polite, othrs not. it's part of the territory and if you want to put it out there, you need to be able to take the tough with the easy.

9:13 PM
Semgirl said...
Shev.. You just like the pic.. I think it is like unfair on CJ's part. I am so totally mesmerized by the pic that I lose my train of thought about what I want to say in the comment.

Like that is such a hot guy..

10:22 PM
Elisheva said...
Elster and SemGirl, I agree with both of you!

1:17 AM
tzvi5 said...
Elisheva, you are an excellent, talented writer. When are you going to post again.

Preferably about something less intimate for your male audience..

12:06 PM
shira22 said...
Ah, elster, I agree with you on two points-there is no such thing as a perfect marriage. You will find frum ladies who will say that they never disagree with their husbands and their marriages are perfect. I'm not one of them.
Second point, when one expresses ones thoughts on a public forum such as a blog one has to be prepared for a variety of responses. I agree whole heartedly.
It's this variety of responses that makes a blog interesting.

12:53 PM
shira22 said...
Oh yeah elster. I went back to your post. For the record, It's one thing to discreetly look at women. I'm actually flattered when men discreetly look at me. Ogling or outright staring is crude and obnoxious. My husband or any other decent man would never do that. For the record, I will discreetly look at attractive men as well.
It does not offend me if my husband discreetly looks at another woman, nor does it offend him if I look at another man. This is normal behavior and has nothing to do with a couples personal life.

1:03 PM
shira22 said...
CH, nobodys urges stop after marriage. And nobody is claiming they do. However, one has different urges in one's 40's than one does in one's teens or 20's. What appeals to me now is much different than what appealed to me in my teens.
And yes, the rules of tznius are designed to bring ones urges under control. When these rules are taken to an extreme, however, they can do the opposite of what they're supposed to do.

1:15 PM
shira22 said...
Lastly,Elisheva, CJ's posts usually require more than a 2 minute response. Unfortunately, I'm usually somewhat pressed for time.

1:20 PM
shira22 said...
Yes tailor, we did discuss this while we were dating. We discussed how we were both finally ready to settle down. I had seen enough guys to know he was different and the right one. Same for him. Marriage, for us, was a mature educated decision that we wanted to share our lives together. It was based on affection and mutual respect, not sexual longing.
I see your points also. I might have very well been misunderstood. In closing, I give you my bracha that you should find someone with whom you are in synch and can share mutual love and respect for the rest of your lives. Thanks for the support.

1:33 PM
Elster said...
Wow - Is this the same Shira? If so, welcome back to planet earth from cloud 9.

5:21 PM
Elisheva said...
Wow, Shira returns. But I guess you are basically like reiterating the same stuff which is very questionable. I still think it is healthier and smarter not too fool around too much as a single and leave it to the thrill of giving and getting discreet looks, and leave the real fun for each other after marriage.

I also think like this is the Torah way, and I do actually believe the Torah knows stuff we don't. I just don't swallow everything I am told is Torah, but I think this is.

Excuse or not, you still have not responded to CJ.

And Tzvi, yes I really need to get to a post, tho every time I think this one is done, it seems to get a new life. I hope real soon. I will try to have my male audience in mind, but to be honest it is kinda a girl blog so if I feel the need I will just give the guys fair warning.

Shalom

9:27 PM
shira22 said...
Elster, I've never been to cloud 9.I've always considered myself to be very practical. I'm a realist.
Elisheva, as a realist, I'm talking real world. Marriage is not all fun, games and sexual bliss. I hate to burst your bubble, but for many newly married people, it takes a few years until they can enjoy themselves sexually. They're so pathetically innocent that it's a comedy of errors until they have an idea of what they're doing. Also in the real world, some people take many years to get married. There's a blog called "Shomer Negia" It's written by a 30+ y/o "girl" who has never been kissed or touched in a romantic manner. She's totally miserable and her blog is totally depressing. Is this healthy? Is this normal? I think not.
Lastly,BH I have a full life. I have a growing family and a full time job. If you find it hard to make time for your own blog, imagine my time constraints. Bli neder, I will attempt to clarify his misunderstandings soon.

8:55 AM
ms. shtark said...
sorry shira but i must disagree with u. u sound like u are a nice person and good hearted so this is nothing against u personally but mentioning shomer negiah's blog and how she is all depressed because she never touched a guy and intimating that she should is totally against the Torah. The Torah is our manual and knows human folly more than us mere humans. She is depressed (now I never read her blog but from what it sounds like) because she has not yet found her life long mate. She would still be depressed about this deep down even if she had all the "fun" in the world with every male on the planet!!

10:02 AM
shira22 said...
Thanks for the complements. I never said that dealing with normal human needs is a subsitute for finding one's zivig. I merely said that for a "girl" this age to have never been touched is abnormal and unhealthy. No more, no less. I give you a bracha that you should never find yourself in her position.

11:03 AM
ClooJew said...
"She is depressed (now I never read her blog but from what it sounds like) because..."--Ms. Shtark

With all due respect, please don't comment on the cause of someone's depression if you haven't read her blog.

"She's totally miserable and her blog is totally depressing. Is this healthy? Is this normal? I think not."--Shira22

You are correct that it's not healthy or normal--because a person her age ought to be married. But the solution for her is not to start fooling around. While this may, lulei demistafina, relieve some tension in the short term, it won't solve the problem of her being single--and may very likely perpetuate it. I could introduce you to dozens of non-shomer negia singles who are every bit as miserable as this young lady.

As Ms Shtark pointed out, "the Torah is our manual." Those who choose to follow it, despite the difficulties, should be applauded not condemned.

2:45 PM
Moochy said...
Hi Elisheva,

First off, I love the way you write and express yourself and in a calm way.

I am not sure if I should still respond to a post that old, hope you will still read it.

Now, Who cant relate to your situation , one way or another?
I was once explained, that most parents are over protective. Now please think a minute, when parents chas veshulem, have a child that is upto doing "bad stuff" they dont want to know about it, but they sure want to protect him/her, they convince themselves that everything is normal, yet they have in back of their mind, and they will take all measures and precautions from preventing it from actually happening.

So here might be a way an innocent mom looks at this situation: (no she is not particlarly being you choshed on such things, but she has a general idea of these things happeneing.
The real reason a girl would like to wear sexy underwear is for someone to see it.
So if she realizes you are constantly getting sexy stuff, the red light (even unaware of it) goes on, she is trying to convince herself, no its totally not true, she is not having with anyone, and no ever saw her tush , she is not like that . period. but you know what she dosent like these thoughts though, and she wants to prevent them from happening.

please, just think about it a minute, or ask a parent (of a teen)on any similar situation, i.e. a boy is not to drive , why cant he just have a drivers liscense in his wallet, no he wont drive.... if this isnt true

6:20 PM
turquoiseblue said...
Shira - exactly what's "pathetic" about being "innocent" and what makes you think that (if it comes to it) a comedy of errors is not part of what's "enjoyable"? I happen to think it's the sweetest starting point when a married couple gets to share their "firsts", awkwardness and all...

True, not every couple is immediately "in sync" thataway...
but neither is any aspect of marriage. It takes time. And dedication. (And maintenance!)

No matter how you try to twist it, sexuality (and expression of it) - is meant for marriage (even from a non-jewish point of view!) each stage of which has its own level and depth... When it's missing, there is SOMETHING WRONG!

8:00 PM
Semgirl said...
First of all, Elisheva is 19, Moochy you would be right if she was 16. Second, the Driver's license analogy is inaccurate. If you have a DL and a car available there is a tremendous Y Hara to drive.

Conversely, Nice undergarments, NOT thongs and garter belts, etc.. just girlish frilly stuff makes you feel good for yourself. If you are the type that sleeps around it really makes no difference what color your intimate apparel is..
If you are not, YOU ARE NOT..

8:02 PM
Elisheva said...
Shira, I was going to comment again, but everyone else basically like said it like it is.

Moochy, I don't know if you are guy or a girl, but like you must be a guy. Any girl knows that lacy underwear for a single girl has absolutely nothing to do with anyone seeing it. Even my mother has to know that. A girl just doesn't think along those lines. It's the guys who all think (wish?) that we like do it for them. Sorry, one day for my husband? Totally! But until then it just feels nice.

Shalom

6:39 PM
ClooJew said...
How can Moochy be a guy????

Everyone knows that "Moochy" isn't a guy name.

Lulei demistafina!!!

12:41 AM
Elster said...
Cloo:

See Moochie norris. Former back-up point guard for the new york knicks. There goes THAT theory

10:11 AM
ClooJew said...
I heard he hangs with Mookie Wilson these days

12:16 PM
shira22 said...
Ah jeez,TB! Your screen name is turquiseblue, but you see the world through rose colored glasses.
What you described is very sweet in an artscroll kinda way, but totally unrealistic for alot of us. I've spoken to many ladies and men who found that first fumbling around frustrating and embarassing.
Guess what? At the end of the day who was the last is more important than who was the first. Was my husband the first guy to touch me? no Was I the first woman to touch my husband? no But you know what? As long as we're both alive he will be the last man to touch me and I will be the last woman to touch him. Because I've been touched by other men, I know that nobody makes me feel the way my husband does. The same holds true for my husband.
I wrote my original post to reassure elisheva and semgirl. I wanted to tell them that it's perfectly normal to have sexual feelings. Hormones don't care about marital status. This is just one stage in their lives. Make the most of it. In the end, it will all work out. I know because I was once where they were. Instead of being racked by guilt, I have some amusing memories. Eventually, I found my bashert and bli ayn hora,I have a terrific marriage and a lovely family. I'm not trying to twist anything around. Have a wonderful shabbos, everyone.

5:24 PM
ms. shtark said...
sorry shira, i just don't get u. yeah we have raging hormones, but as g-d fearing jews, who follow the Torah, we cannot fulfill these desires as of yet!!! second of all, just because everything worked out for u, what makes u so sure that it'll work out so well 4 everyone else???! i mean where's ur guarantee??? yours is just one experience, definitely not transferable to the whole population. i don't know if u realize or ur just trying 2 avoid what everyone is trying 2 tell u but this is wrong and not a solution 2 all the extra estrogen and testosterone floating around during those years. good shabbos!!!

5:43 PM
Elisheva said...
I totally agree with Ms. Shtark. I like can't ever say how big the problem with hormones and feeling horny is, but Shira definitely does not have the right solution.

Learning control, while I admit I have not gotten there yet, is definitely a goal that makes more sense to me. I have heard and read many times that a first in these things will never go out of your mind totally. I know I (blush, blush...) still sometimes lose myself in dreams about my first crush, and he has no idea about me (I hope!). And this was years ago, and I've had many new ones since. Can you imagine if it would be more than a crush, but would have also included like touching and stuff and worse, how much harder it would be to get it out of my mind? Obviously once I am married (IY"H soon) it may be different, but from what I gather the first never quite goes totally away.

And Shira says she knows that no guy can touch her like her husband. SO what if like one of those would have had a like totally sensuous touch? Like so now you can't get married until you find a guy who can best every guy you have fooled around with since, which is alot of guys in Shira's go-party-and-let-the-hormones-loose mentality.

And once you let go in these years, I totally know of girls who are like majorly messed up now, and like, no, things are not exactly working out for them in the end. I can say for myself, if I wouldn't be like deep down trying to somehow control, then I would very possibly have gone too far. I am very human, and the urges can be OMG! Even when I let go, I keep back, and that is definitely a good thing.

Gut Voch everyone, and daven good at Selichos. I will have you all in mind in my tefilos.

Shalom

11:06 PM
Unforgiving Editor said...
Ms. Shtark,

Urz wuz a gr8 response to shira, but it wud be alot more effective w/o the abbreviations. Makes u sound like a l'il kid.

12:32 AM
shira22 said...
Elisheva, a belated good voch to you and everyone else.
Once again, you misunderstood me completely. When I say nobody else makes me feel like my husband does, I don't physically. There's no shortage of hot guys out there(and yes, I still notice them). It's not difficult to find a guy who can make your hormones go wild. They're a dime a dozen. What's hard is to find a guy who will touch your heart and soul. My husband was the first guy to touch my heart and my soul. Thus, when he touches me physically, I experience a joy that goes way beyond hormones.
I give you a bracha that one day, IYH, you will know this joy for yourself. The joy of having found your soulmate.

11:27 AM
ms. shtark said...
thanks unforgiving editor. i'm still a kid at heart. JK, comes from way 2 many college lectures and days of a tired hand. i just wanna let u know that being in the medical profession, e/t we write is in short form such as MHNC (medical history no change) so it's not realls such a little kid thing. i've given up on shira

11:51 AM
shira22 said...
MS.Shtark, I'm not advocating anything. I'm just talking about what happens in the real world. Raging hormones are no reason to get married either. I've known innocent girls who took the very permanent and drastic step of marriage so they won't feel guilty about getting wild with a guy. When the hormone haze cleared after a few months, she discovered that she was married to someone she didn't really know and wasn't sure she liked. In a few instances they ended up getting divorced. In one instance the guy demanded more than $50,000 for a get. Marriage is serious business. It takes alot more than sex to hold 2 people together for life. If G-d forbid someone makes the mistake of marrying the wrong person for the wrong reasons, it's not so easy to correct. Take your time, find the right one. Choose with your head and your heart, not your hormones. Remember, marriage is for keeps and it's the most important decision you'll ever make.

10:03 PM
Semgirl said...
Wow, Shira you take so many turns that my head is spinning.. Obviously, Elisheva and myself do not want to end up in the scenario you described .

But, we certainly DO NOT want to sit around in Flannel granny night gowns on rocking chairs playing chess with our husbands either. or I am not Semgirl...

I sincerely hope your husband is a tenth as happy as you claim he is...

11:12 PM
Elster said...
Shira22: Pick a side and stick with it. You flip flop more than John Kerry was accused of doing. This isn't a political debate. You aren't here to make friends. Your position shifts with each comments.

The fact is that you SEEM (and I stress seem because it's getting a little difficult to follow you) to think that premarital fooling around is ok and post marital fooling around is not necessary because a married person's definition of "love" changes. A gentle loo from your loving husband can easily displace a night of passion/. Does that about sum it up?

Don't you see how (lulei demistafina) silly it looks on paper??? Don't you see what might have "worked" for you is not something you should be pushing on these girls? Should halach play no role in the equation? Just because you fooled around (against the teachings of the rabbonim), so, too, should everyone because it's not natural any other way?

Please, tell me I'm wrong. Tell me i'm misrepresenting you. I HOPE I am because your whole posirion is ludicrous. And yes, i know I spelled that wrong but I'm too lazt to look it up.

4:42 PM
Limey2001 said...
shira: lulei de##%$#^%, the shomer negia blog is about someone who WISHES someone will touch her , her problem is she doesn't have a boyfriend!!! and says so herself.... i cant be bothered to provide the link so look it up yourself.
CJ, E7 - the best way to ask an anonymous shayla is to write it... If you need I'll ask rabbi solomon myself

5:59 PM
Semgirl said...
www.Shomernegiah.blogspot.com

And Limey.. last I heard Reb Matis is not a poisek.. Why not ask an official Rov..

6:36 PM
shira22 said...
Ok, Elster,here we go again. I have not changed sides. I'm merely bring out different aspects of the same position. I am not here to debate, nor am I here to agree with everyone.To think I used to find blogging relaxing!
I am not a posek. It is not my job to decide what is and isn't ok. Once again I am merely talking real world as opposed to artscroll. Nor am I saying what is and isn't necessary. I am merely saying that with someone you truly love a gentle peck on the cheek can be as thrilling if not more so than making out with someone with whom that bond does not exist. What people do in the privacy of their homes is not my business. BTW what is a "gentle loo"?
lulei whatever-I am not pushing anything on anyone. I am merely trying to give over the benefits of my real life/real world experience. Once again I do not poskin halacha. I am merely saying that it is unrealistic and unhealthy to expect a mature woman to remain totally untouched because she happens to be unmarried. Why she is still unmarried is a discussion for another blog. Do you have any advice to offer such an "older girl"? Perhaps you can put in just some of the thought you use to criticize me to think of something to alleviate her suffering.
Yes you are wrong and yes you are misrepresenting me. You obviously do not understand my position any more than you understand the predicament of such "girls".

8:19 PM
shira22 said...
lulei de#%%$# back at you limey! Do you think you can leave the east end pub long enough to deliver anonymous shaylas to R'Solomon? Just drink some warm beer and relax.

8:24 PM
Elster said...
Sure I can Shira. I got married at 25. I didn't fool around with girls before that. So yea, I understand self control perfectly.

Since us guys are all about our animalistic urges, it stands to reason that our excercising of self control would be more difficult. Ergo, if I can do it so can anyone else.

As for the unfortunate case of neverbeenkissed - No I have no advice, no smart words and no understanding. Hers is the single most powerful blog i have yet to come across. I would go so far as to say it strikes an emotional chord with anyone who would read it. It is an unbelieveable piece of writing - a sad tale that i have no answer for. That being said, I wanst discussing it either.

I'm not preaching halachic self control or going againt halacha. i am just saying that for you to preach to these girls that the answer is to fool around, your being silly.

9:05 PM
ClooJew said...
"Last I heard Reb Matis is not a poisek"--Semgirl

I maintain my position that this is, lulei demistafina, more a hashkafic question than a halachic question, in which case Rav Solomon, shlit"a, is the perfect person to ask.

Limey, please let us know what he says!

9:18 PM
ClooJew said...
This post has been removed by the author.

9:26 PM
ClooJew said...
"Once again I do not poskin halacha. I am merely saying that it is unrealistic and unhealthy to expect a mature woman to remain totally untouched because she happens to be unmarried."--Shira22

Sorry, Shira, but your disclaimer, lulei demistafina, just doesn't cut it. One doesn't need to be a poseik to know the basic rules--and your advice violates them.

I don't claim that it's easy. I have a world of respect for people like Elster who held off for so long. I don't have answers for the Never Been Kisseds of the world, anymore than I have answers for the people who have homosexual urges or even pedophilic urges. Other than to know that it's wrong to act out on those urges.

Does G-d forgive them? I certainly hope so. But forgiveness of sin doesn't condone the sin. And it doesn't change the halachah.

9:27 PM
ms. shtark said...
kay shira, this is my last reply. You make it sound like we can't wait to get married because we can't wait to get laid!! I would like to think that you think a bit higher of us. Being 21, and having dated a bit already, I could have been married to some of the very good looking guys that i have met. BUT when i date, i look for substance, yeah chemistry plays into it - i need to also be attracted to continue seeing a guy - but he also has to be smart, kind, funny, worldly, a kid lover....you get the point. and no, once again the solution of getting raging hormones out of our system is not to play around. as i mentioned, that is against the Torah!! no, it's not easy but lehavdil, i am sure you occasionally hold yourself back from a delicious piece of cake. we control ourselves and hopefully save it for marriage, an institution which will surely enhanced by such meritorious actions!
i am glad everything worked out for you but i don't think your experiences are typical!
good night

10:54 PM
shira22 said...
Elster, I do not preach and I do not poskin. All I'm saying is that halacha la maasa, people are doing things before marriage because we are not malachim. Let's not kid ourselves. We all know what solitary activity most buchurim engage in before marriage and it's ossur.
Elisheva, Semgirl-about 20 years ago I went to seminary. Even then, the same girls who would never dream of going near a boy were a little too fond of other girls. The more things change...
SI'm not the one who's being preachy.....

11:30 PM
Elisheva said...
Wow, once again. If I respond, like I am adding anything new, or is this like a merry-go-round?

I totally agree with Ms. Shtark. I have dated such hot guys, I would be embarassed to write the reaction I got from them. Yet there were issues with other things, like compatibility, goals, etc., so I ended it.

So the physical thrills is not everything, and we are not as shallow as Shira would hope. But like I actually asked around a little (very subtle and all) and it seems that it is simply so untrue that after marriage a peck on the cheek can cut it.

I like can't speak for Shira's personal needs, maybe her hormones are not high to begin with, but it seems us girls get it worse as we get older still, before it will ever get better. And while the bedroom thrills are not the whole marriage, I was told that the Jewish halacha and hashkafa recognize that it is a VERY integral part of it. That's the whole nidda thing, to keep the fires burning. (Thanks to English sefarim I prob shouldn't be reading, lol).

And like what exactly is the halachic shayla here that we are debating whom to ask? I agree with CJ. Hashkafa about my origional issue, maybe. But like there is no halacha question about what Shira is talking about. Like i don't have to ask R' Matis if I can eat milk and meat cooked together. And don't convince anyone it's pikuach nefesh. I sure know it so feels like it, but it just isn't.

Besides halacha, it surely is unhealthy for a girl to stay single. It is also unhealthy for her to play around before marriage. I won't preach and ay i havn't failed here and there and done my bit, but I know this was unhealthy. I know many, many girls who got so messed up. So this is besides halacha. it is just stupid. We want to do it, sure. But it is not smart. So we need another solution.

Shalom

8:46 AM
Elster said...
Sometimes what we want to do, what we would feel good doing, what seems like a natural thing to do, is against what the Torah tells us to do. Sometimes it's simply a case of rabbonim throwing out the "baby with the bathwater" (thanks CJ), but that is only SOMETIMES.

We have to follow within the halachik framework as best as we can. Yes, we are tempted and we sin. We have all given into temptation in ne form or another. I shall state publicly that I have sinned too (yes, I know, hard to belive).

But we should NOT advise people to sin simply because our personal feelings tell us that the halacha is wrong. In my opinion shira, that's where you are going wrong. Yes it's hard. it's freaking hard. It can be unbearable at times. And maybe even thngs can change when you are 35 and not married and still shomer negiah. But I think a 21 year old can handle it. And I don't think they need the devil sitting on the shoulder telling thwm it's unnatural. Don't tel them, tell the Lord. They are HIS rules.

11:24 AM
Anonymous said...
is semgirl the yahoo user kissaholic?

12:15 PM
Limey2001 said...
Shira: A pint of bitters on you! We go way back the Mash and I (we drink together too)
CJ: after tonight i may not be able to use internet ;-} to answer you
and yes he's the perfect one

6:06 PM
ClooJew said...
Limey, lulei demistafina, but did you just refer to Harav Hagaon R. Matisyahu Solomon, shlit"a, as "the Mash"?

7:10 PM
Ari said...
Congratulations. I am leaving the 200th comment. That means its time for a new post........

8:56 AM
Semgirl said...
Ill second that Ari

10:37 AM
Elisheva said...
Thanx Ari! I really am overwhelmed by the response and interset and comments of all my virtual friends.

Ari, I don't know you, but here is a virtual kiss for being 200. (Hope that's OK, like virtual ones keep with shomer and everything...)

And yes, I totally need to post something, and like so many things are running around in my head. But I don't know when. I really, really hope before Rosh HaShana.

Shalom

6:31 PM
Ari said...
That was actually my first virtual kiss, so thank you.

Have a great day.
Ari
ari9753@yahoo.com

9:48 AM
shira22 said...
MS Shtark, I'm glad to see that you are looking for more than sex in marriage. And yeah, temptation doesn't end with marriage. I do sometomes deny myself a delicious piece of cake. I just found out that my cholesterol is a bit high and cheese happens to be one of my favorite foods, so you can see the problem there. Instead of giving up cheese entirely, I just switched to low cholesterol, low fat cheese. Tastes just as good melted.
And guess what? One of my associates at work happens to be real handsome, charming, intelligent and, for want of a better term, hot. He is also married. I would never do anything to harm my family or betray my husbands trust so I can and do control myself. He's equally attracted to me, but we know our limits. Also, he's not my soulmate. My husband is.
As long as there's life, there's temption.
Lastly, I know several women like myself who enjoyed being single then settled down to a wonderful marriage. You'd be surprised, but there's more of us than you think. I'm in some very chosheva company.
A retroactive goodnight to you Ms. Shtark.

3:08 PM
Elster said...
S:

It's almost inmpossible to take you seriously. I'm starting to jump on the CJ bandwagon about your origins.

3:13 PM
shira22 said...
LOL!!! You are very funny, limey! Is bitters schnapps? If it's on me does that mean I'm buying? Is the mash ale or R' M. Solmon? Sorry, but I don't get to the east end too often. But hey, I'll treat you to a pint of bitters.
A toast(I prefer my beer chilled) and a good shabbos to you, my British friend.

3:19 PM
Elisheva said...
Shira the chosheva company line has line been used so much. You realize than anyone can say this. But obviously saying it proves nothing.

I had a friend who tried to convince me that she knows of real choshuva ladies that really smoke when they are very down. Like right.

And I know choshuva ladies who read my blog religiously. (I wish!)

Shalom

4:02 PM
ms. shtark said...
hey elisheva, I am a chosheva lady! Really! I am just human too. Everyone should know that I just got my first official real world job (counsellor and Bais Yaakov teacher doesn't count - no offense to any teachers out there) so i will have less time to blog. oh well! Have a kesiva vechasima tova.

6:25 PM
Elisheva said...
Congrats Ms. Shtark. Good Luck. But I do think a good teacher has to be appreciated, so if you are doing your job, not just cause you couldn't find anything else, then it is like a "real" job.

Shalom

6:29 PM
ClooJew said...
Mazal tov, Ms Shtark! Best of luck in your new position. And remember, lulei demistafina, the teaching never stops. Every day in the real world is another opportunity for Kiddush Hashem.

8:15 PM
ms. shtark said...
thanks guys, i take that back what i say about teachers. they probably have the most imp. job ever. we wouldn't be anywhere without them. elisheva, i think i have a good new topic. i would post it but i can't figure out how to get up my own blog. you could talk about being cautios in the professional workplace. you have to really be on guard, esp. when u are the only frum person in your office! The language and the whole camaraderie can really throw someone off guard (and i am not naive - i've gone thru college) but i have only worked for 2 days and yet i can see why ppl would be nervous about working in such an environment. neways, this is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand so whatever and have a sweet and healthy new yr.

9:03 PM
Semgirl said...
Ms Shtark, I wish you lots of mazal and brocha on your new job. If you need any help or tips on setting up your blog, feel free to email me.

9:08 PM
shira22 said...
Elisheva, we all know that nobody, regardless of gender, should smoke. It's a very unhealthy, unattractive habit. Why the frum world accepts it in men and even in teenage boys but not in women is a mystery to me.
As for chosheva, believe me, you really would be surprised. Yes, anyonre could use that line but the proof is in the pudding.

6:09 AM
Anonymous said...
Shira wake up and smell the coffee, there a big difference between men and woman smoking... even in the non frum world

9:59 AM
Elisheva said...
Ms. Shtark, funny you mention it, cause like my next topic (when I get around to it...) was going to be about the workplace. But like I was more thinking my new job which is in a frum workplace, and there are lots of issues there too.

I have heard tho that things are so much worse in a non-frum environment, tho some ppl told me it isn't that bad. I guess it depends where you work.

Hope to still comments before Yom Tov, so Good Shabbos, and a Good Year to those who will not be back before.

Shalom

3:37 PM
ms. shtark said...
can't wait to hear it elisheva

8:37 PM
Semgirl said...
Me, too .. I hope you can post before YTov

1:33 PM
Stam said...
Way to go Bubby!

Elisheva- nice blog, just found it... Anyway to buy some "nice" stuff now makes it less of a trip when you get engaged... :)

4:37 AM
Me said...
Hi Elisheva. Just read your blog for the first time - it's a fantastic account of being a frum single girl over there in the US. Well done.

On your post - I used to buy myself all sorts of fancy lingerie, expensive sets, and it was purely for myself. Getting dressed up for shabbos, yom tov or weddings was just that much nicer when my underwear was as good as the beautiful outfits. I mean, it felt a bit of a shame to wear plain, sensible lingerie underneath gorgeous fancy clothes. My mother always made comments to me about it when she found it in the washing- "Why do you buy this? Who do you think is going to see you in it? It's not very tznius!" But I just ignored it, because I knew that I was just doing it for myself. It was definitely a self esteem thing.

I've been married for 10 months now and I can tell you, I have very rarely worn any of my gorgeous lingerie for my husband... I tried it out when we were first married and he's just not interested in it. So I figure, it's most definitely for yourself, not for anyone else. Do what makes you happy - your grandmother was right, you should feel good for yourself.

10:24 PM
Dr. Dreykup said...
Hey Elisheva - great job here!! Big fan of your blog!
I think that its very important for a girl's emotional health and self esteem (and guy too) to feel good about herself and when an innocent act such as buying attractive/pretty/even arousing lingerie uplifts her and makes her happy then not only may she do it - she SHOULD buy em. For a single, frum, halacha-abiding girl, lingerie is a personal item that no one but her sees and if they make her smile then get a dozen!
(I'd love to hear your thoughts on my blog!! - "Shalom"!!

10:24 PM
Mrs. Dreykup said...
Elisheva-
First off, I wanted to tell you how much I love your blog. You continue to hit the nail on the head time after time. Now, to add to what the good 'ol "doc" said, I can tell you from personal experiences that when I was single, I always bought all that fancy lingerie in the store. It made me feel good. And I had always thought that when I was married, I would for SURE wear fancy lingerie every day cause that is when it REALLY counts. However, I find myself wearing it less and less. The lingerie was an esteem booster and made me feel pretty, but now I have my husband to tell me that I am pretty every day! Also, guys are more turned on by the sexuality you exude while wearing the lingerie than from the lingerie itslef. Keep up the good work!

10:50 PM
LakewoodSchools said...
In reaction to the recent announcements concerning Internet use, a school alternative is planned in Lakewood now. Please see http://lkwdschools.blogspot.com/

8:58 AM
shira22 said...
me, for a newlywed you sound very sensible. There's nothing that a girl or woman can wear that is more atractive than positive self esteem!

1:08 PM
Elisheva said...
Thanx for the nice words stam, and welcome all of you for joining. Stam, don't worry, when I get engaged (IY"H) I will get even more special stuff. I will make sure he gets what he could ever dream of, and like i so want it myself.

Me and Mrs. Drey. That is so interesting cause like all the guys here, and the few I like, um, had something to do with before like so made it clear that all these things make such a difference. Does it depend on the guy? Or like does it burn out? I wonder. Either way, it surely feels nice now, and you are so right Me,like when I'm all dressed up, it so compliments the outfit.

And like from down under, wow!

Shalom

2:35 PM
Bracha said...
Elisheva,

I just found this blog and wow you really impress me! I am a former Bais yaakov student and I did not fit in at all with the typical BY girl.

I always loved dressing different and loved buying and wearing fine lingerie.

I felt so feminine wearing lingerie sometimes if I had a bad day, that would cheer me up immensely.


When I got married, I of course bought expensive lingerie and boy, did my husband enjoy it. He confided to me that he had always seen advertisements for lingerie and was very aroused by it.

So of course I bought new lingerie quite often. I find that it really adds spice to our marriage.

I love wearing matching sets every day.

Elisheva, keep on wearing lingerie and one day (hopefully very soon) you will share it with your husband!

Bracha

10:25 PM
Elisheva said...
Bracha, you sound so nice and normal. Are you from LKWD too? That would be nice to know. And your words prove that like I thought, it might depend on the guy, but like it doesn't sound like what Me and Mrs. Drey are the typical story. It seems like the guys like totally like it.

Either way, the point was that like right now i am single, and it is such a booster on a down day, and especially if one day it will be great for the marriage so it's not like there is a reason not to get used to it.

Shalom

1:44 AM
Bracha said...
Elisheva,

I am from BP. I am not familiar with LKWD. Have not really been there that much. Do they sell nice lingerie there at all?

In any case, don't worry about what you wear beneath it all and wear whatever makes you comfortable and feel good.

The guys love it for the most part..there may be some guys who don't but so what...

Thanks for your compliments...

Bracha

3:37 AM
ms. shtark said...
yahoo i just bought some really fun joe boxer ones........whee.....when are you putting up a new one?

3:38 AM
Semgirl said...
Elisheva.. Its wonderful to see you back on the blog, commenting. I really hope that you post again, real soon..

And absolutely, you should definitely wear whatever makes you feel the best.

12:43 PM
shira22 said...
Elisheva, please let me know when your first romance/fantasy novel is coming out. I'll be sure to look for it! Yes, I confess I'm a romantic at heart. In real life, however, marriage is more of a partnership than a romance.
In real life, Mrs. Drey and ME are typical stories. The truth is that lacy undies are more for us than for them. Bracha is probably a newlywed. When you have BH a large family and a full time job, you need undies that you can just throw in the wash. I love wearing fancy undies under the elegant suit I wear to work, but that's just for me. I'm home and in my faded robe and tichel before hubby ever gets to see any of it. Can't prepare dinner and see to the kids in dry cleanables. Gotta get comfy after a long day. That's real life and it's wonderful....

12:46 PM
Bracha said...
Shira,

Actually I am married for 12 years with 4 wonderful children.

You can certainly change to a robe when coming home but no need to change the lingerie you wore during the day.

My husband loves seeeing me during the day sometiems even when I am wearing a robe. He can peek beneath it all...

AND the robe doesn't have to be a real grungy type either...

Bracha

1:25 PM
Me said...
I have to disagree a little with Shira22. It's not that marriage is a partnership rather than a romance, but that it is both (in my opinion, and hopefully for everyone).

Elisheva, it's not that my husband is disinterested so much in my lingerie - he definitely has his colour/style preferences etc - but that he is much more interested in what's underneath. So the lingerie is just a fiddly waste of time in his mind. So basically, yeah it is a guy's personal preference thing - i think they all like it but it just depends to what extent - but the idea of sexy lingerie does burn out a little in a guy's mind after a while because they have what's underneath to think about instead. :)

8:53 PM
Mrs. Dreykup said...
Shira- I agree with you that when you get home from working a whole day, it is just not practical to be all dressed up. But Bracha, you are absolutely right- there is no need to be wearing a worn out robe or looking like a "shlump". However, lets get real here- when I get home from work, I automatically change into what I call my "uniform"- a lycra type skirt, a normal t-shirt, and a bandana on my head. Now that may not be a worn out robe but it is definately nobody's defenition of sexy. But it does the job. And as far as what I wear underneath, lets get real about that too. Most of the real "sexy" stuff just isnt practical for everyday use. I don't know what lingerie each person commenting here is reffering too but in my opinion, thongs are just not comfortable, and wearing non-cotton underwear on a regular basis just isnt healthy. (don't mean to bore you with the details but it doent breath and therefore breeds germs......) And how good do all those fancy bra's make you look when you are wearing clothing on top of it (especially when you are all dressed up and really counts)? I dont know about all of you but I am not into the "cone" look or the "bouncy" look either (I'm sure you get my drift). Now I am not saying you have to wear grandma breifs, or old lady bra's, but there definately is a happy medium.
Bottom line is- Whatever floats your (or your husband's!) boat!

11:29 PM
Bracha said...
Mrs Dreykup,

I understand what you are saying about your home outfit not being "sexy" and thats fine. I'm not saying you have to dress up like you are going out the minute you come home and have to take care of the house and kids.

I don't wear my silk blouse and skirt when I work around the house either. But I don't like wearing a shamate housedress and greet my husband or for that matter even for myself I don't want to be wearing shmates.


As far as wearing "sexy" lingerie everyday, I know what you mean and even in cotton you can find nice sets. Fancy bras are not always meant to be worn beneath clothing...but again there are "nice bras that can be worn everyday. No need for the plain flesh colored or beige Ugly bras which I cannot stand.

Bracha

2:30 AM
Anonymous said...
I am married 5 years, which I know may not give me the experience Shira has, but I agree with Mrs Drey, when I first got married, I wore sexy lingerie, sexy pajamas, etc.
Now, after realizing I was itchy and cold, I have changed my ways. Elisheva, you are very sweet, Semgirl, you are very young, and all the other men who are commenting, we get it, you want your wives to be looking good 24-7, but what about your gut that has grown these past few years?
After a while, real life gets in the way, and making sure that you are wearing sexy lingerie when you havent had time to hand wash the silk stuff because the baby was up all night with the flu and you have sheva brachos to cook for and your in laws are coming to visit so you have to change the sheets....I think you get my point.
Yes, I try to look my best for my husband when he comes home, and on mikvah night especially, I bring out the old stuff, but otherwise, I just try to make sure everyone is fed, my house is clean, and everyone is somewhat satisfied.
In marriage, communication is key, and saving the racy clothes for the special times makes them just that, SPECIAL!
Have a lovely chag.

12:40 PM
shira22 said...
Therer's another aspect to all this. As an executive, I have to project a certain image at work. That means an elegant suit, a custom made human hair sheitel that's as natural looking as possible, and a full face of make-up. It doesn't matter whether or not I'm in the mood to dress up- this is part of the culture in the main office in Manhattan. My home,however, is my refuge. I can be myself and be loved for it. I don't have to worry about projecting the corporate image.....

11:09 AM
Elisheva said...
There is like one thing I think people here are mixing up, and i think bracha got it straight.

I am totally not talking about the fine silk hand-washable stuff we see in the stores and like i am not even sure exactly when those get put on, but i sure will when I can.

I am talking like just the regular underwear. They make regular good support bras in plain, plain, drab beige with nothing but maybe a dot here and there, and the same exact quality, price, etc. stuff in nice colors, a little lace-edgeing, scallops, textures etc. Same with panties. The same cotton washables come in cute prints and plain white. I am taling feminine, not racy. OK.

Shalom

3:14 PM
Anonymous said...
Hi Shira,
I am a married guy, and from your posts it sounds like you in denial about your marriage being very Blah! ... You are very friendly with the guy at work, don’t like wearing lingerie at home , something is very obviously up but you are in denial.

6:38 PM
shira22 said...
Hi Anon,
Like some of the other married ladies here, I prefer being comfortable in my own home. I like my associate very much. This is a good thing because we have to work together often, and we do so very efficiently. This, however, has nothing to do with how I feel about my husband.
My associate only sees me in the professional environment, dressed in proper executive attire. I've only seen him in his expensive, custom made suit.
I don't need to put on a show for my husband. He is my refuge from the corporate world. He loves ME, whether I'm in a ratty, torn robe or an evening gown. I'm so comfortable with him that I am truly free to be myself with him, as he is with me. This is why he doesn't have to worry about my dapper, handsome associate and I don't feel threatened by other women. That, my friend, is better than a whole wardrobe of lingerie.

Can your wife say the same about you?

1:38 AM
Me said...
Onya Shira22

And like some of the other married ladies here, our husbands prefer that we feel comfortable in our own home as well.

But - that's a little off Elisheva's topic.

When are we getting a fantastic new post????

2:05 AM
Semgirl said...
Elisheva you keep disapearing for a long time, and throw in a lil comment to tease us. We all want you back for real.. Please !!!

3:12 AM
Bracha said...
Elisheva,

You said exactly what I meant. I don't "always" wear the fine silk lingerie I own although I do wear them at times, BUT I do wear attractive lingerie every day.

On yom tov, Shabbos etc... I enjoy dressing up ANd wearing fine lingerie as well....

Bracha

1:54 PM
Michelle said...
Whoa, I can't real all the comments, but I can tell you the following. I see both sides of the argument. On one hand, nobody sees it, and you wanna feel good about yourself. On the other hand, this may lead you to wear louder things on the outside. I don't know. Good luck.

I mean, if you're talking lace over leopard print, that's less risky. The leopard print makes me think of Pamela Anderson.

5:25 PM
shira22 said...
hi ME,
what does onya mean? is that an internet abbreviation?

9:32 AM
Me said...
Sorry - Aussie slang.

Onya = Good On You. (Meaning "well done")

7:24 PM
shira22 said...
Thanks, me. I'm relieved to find another sensible lady....

12:40 PM
Bracha said...
Elisheva,

When will be seeing something new?

How was everyone's Succos?

I had a fabulous time....

Bracha

1:27 PM
Anonymous said...
If you want a street in Lakewood named after you, this is your opportunity.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:31&item=5630822472

8:30 PM
The Rabbi's Kid said...
ELisheva,

My two cents, wear what you feel comfortable with and be happy.

When we gonna be zocheh for a new post? Everything ok?

TRK

10:58 AM
shira22 said...
...Did any of you married ladies know that there is such a thing as silk boxers for men? My husband can wear cotton and that's fine with me. Bracha, would you like your husband to wear silk boxers? How about silk pajamas? (yep they make those for men too) Gotta get back to work now. Just a thought....

2:36 PM
Y.Y. said...
man time for a new post

2:49 PM
Bracha said...
Shira,

Of course that there are silk boxers for men. Actually I like my husband to wear briefs or bikini briefs. He looks really great in them!

He owns silk PJ's as well, but usually sleeps in his briefs ..or less...

That's it for now..

Bracha

8:24 PM
ms. shtark said...
ooh, getting just a bit steamy here! by the way, this is not a competition, just a discussion forum! Like hello??!!!!!

11:04 PM
shira22 said...
Actually Bracha, I was only kidding when I wrote about the silk mens stuff. I had the misfortune of being at a very boring meeting and I thought I would have a little fun with my laptop. I want to wear comfortable practical clothes at home and so does my husband. Sorry for making a juvenile joke, but let's be mature married folk and dress the part.

5:56 PM
turquoiseblue said...
jumping in here again, "just for fun" (even though I promised myself not to reply to shira's skewed views...)

Ahem... I too consider myself, mature, married (quite a significant number of years too!)... and I don't think there is a single dress code for that!

The point is most normal married men and woman DO (or at least "should") dress attractively - or what makes THEM FEEL so... hence act so... **for their spouse** (not co-workers or teen boyfriends - but at least do both!) - it's part of what being "married" is all about!

Of course - when you love the one you're married to - it don't matter if they're "wearing the *right* stuff - you keep on loving them anyway. But it sure helps spice things up.... BUT, to say that it is BETTER or even okay to wear them "for yourself or co-workers or pre-marriage boyfriends" and "take it off!!!!" and wear "frumpy comfortable" - when between husband and wife - that must be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard someone say!!

And Shira - FYI - there are lots of NON-sensible 100% cotton undies to be gotten - email me and I'll fill you in!

9:38 PM
BrooklynJewishGuy said...
shira......... whenever you have the misfortune of being in a boring meeting.......... email or call me. ;)

seriously folks, I happen to think what shira has been saying has been very sensible....... Maybe it's cause I'm also middle aged, and we're in synch.

TB, can I email you for that info, I'd like to show that to my wife..

Oh, and please, Semgirl........ do another posting. This is getting to be too long of answer post.

2:55 PM
BrooklynJewishGuy said...
I apologize, Elisheva. I know you're not the same as Semgirl.

3:07 PM
Semgirl said...
BJG I have a new post.

6:35 PM
Elisheva said...
OK. I couldn't sleep and managed to get online. Gosh! I am like not even here and the comments are coming. You guys are all great keeping things going while I am trying to get back online normally.

I really, really, really am working on a post which I hope to post soon even if I am not back online normally. Like I hope really soon.

Thanx all of you for your understanding. SemGirl, I saw your post. It is great as usual, sad too, I hope to comment soon.

And like as usual I agree with TB and like think Shira is so way off. There definitely are like loads of regular cotton stuff which are very feminine. When I am engaged you can send me your fuller e-mail list TB in case I missed anything! The rest of the stiff in some comments kinda made be blush... I hope I'll understand it all better like quite soon.

Shalom all of you.

2:13 AM
Bracha said...
Elisheva,

Are you restricted from being online due to that Lakewood Takonoh?

Bracha

11:03 AM
shira22 said...
Call you? e mail you? that's the best offer I've had all day ;) Seriously, thanks for your support, bklynnyjewishguy. It's so nice to be in synch with someone. It's true what they say, you can't put old heads (or in our case middle aged heads) on young shoulders. Ah youth....

11:36 AM
Berel said...
"The rest of the stiff "

It made me STIFF too, Shev..

1:39 PM
Berel said...
"The rest of the stiff "

It made me STIFF too, Shev..

1:39 PM
Anonymous said...
why don't you just add a post that you closed the blog ..? you never post anything anyway. boring!!

12:50 PM
AbleVaybel said...
Wow! Your bubbe is übercool! The next time your mother is on your case about buying some underwear which only a nun or an Amish chick would find nice, call your bubbe and have her talk to your mother. I hope that you get to a point in your relationship with your bubbe that you can talk to her openly about many things and benefit from her experience and perspective. As many frum bloggers have noted, things have changed A LOT in the last 20 years - moved to be more conservative. Not all of that is written in stone.

12:06 PM
osomakom said...
hey eli...why don`t you send me your gatkes;i`ll check out if they are kosher enough.
now..if they have the gefilte fish odor,i may have to send them to skwertown- where they know what to do with fish

12:49 AM