Are All “Frummies” Bad???

Sunday, August 07, 2005

Hi again everyone.[I was going to post something on my mind that was of the silly girl-talk type, but wasn’t sure to go ahead cause the boys might say I am being unfair to their ‘ruchnios’. It seems from comments on my previous post, that I have most ppl's go ahead, besides I think my blog should allow some stupid girl-talk venting, without having to worry about the boys. Think of it like we are chatting undisturbed in our dorm-room in sem. You wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) be eavesdropping, and if you do, you can’t blame me. Either way, I meanwhile thought of something else while checking other blogs, also ClooJew mentioned the topic too, and I had wanted to write about it, so for now here this is.]It seems from what I see in lots of blogs and comments, that there is a lot of “frummie” bashing going on. I am not saying everyone does it, but it is definitely pretty widespread. At the risk of being lynched, I would like to perhaps say some words in defense, or maybe just clarify some points. Take this please in the spirit of the 9 days, when we are trying to make shalom and see the good in people.My opinion is that people are making broad generalizations and are painting us all with one brush. Yes I say us, cause I think I too would be considered a frummie by many of you. Like my family is considered yeshivish, I think sitting and learning all day is a wonderful and yes ideal life, and I see nothing wrong with trying to live up to a higher standard in Yiddishkeit.Okay, I hear the screaming! One sec. No, I don’t look down at working people, I don’t look down at people who eat chalav akum, I don’t even look down at frei people. And you know what is more? My parents, who I think are pretty close-minded, and don’t understand the younger generation (and surely not me!), they too don’t look down at any such people! They just personally want to live their lifestyle, which they think is more spiritual, and will lead to more schar in olam habah.I don’t think they realize that such a lifestyle is so hard for so many (myself included!) and surely not the nisyonos of today. But they don’t fake anyone. They don’t preach one thing and practice something else. They don’t live fancy delancy while preaching sacrificing for yiddishkeit and the kollel life. Yes my father works, but I know he learned many years, and some of my friends’ fathers still learn. None of us live fancy or wear only designer clothes (I wish!).Now, I totally know there are many in my community and other frum places who are fakers and hypocrites. Believe me, my friends and I laugh at and hate these people as much as any of you. I can’t STAND the teachers who come in with new shoes EVERY DAY (yes, for real!) and wear only designer stuff and would rather die than not fit into the ‘right’ size. And then they go on telling us about tznius and sacrificing for yiddishkeit and kollel etc. If any of you teachers would ever read this (yes, we know you have internet even though you tell us how bad it is. We overhear you saying how you got this top online at a steal…) let me tell them this: “You are SO transparent, and all besides the biggest nebs laugh at you behind your back. And you are a big chillul Hashem!”I think lots of the younger couples are like this than the older ones. Perhaps cause like I said we have serious nisyonos lately. But I have nisyonos too. I don’t claim to be perfect. I don’t say I don’t do things I shouldn’t in yiddishkeit, tznius, lashon hara etc. I have regular teenage cravings like other girls (who don’t blind themselves that it isn’t happening). But I still would love to get there one day. I do think if I get there, I will get schar. I do believe Torah is the most wonderful thing (Hashem gave it, didn’t He?). But cause I believe it, does that mean I don’t have ta’ava? Does that make me a hypocrite if I talk to a boy, cause I still believe in Kollel? None of us are perfect, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be idealists.I think only if we claim we have reached the ideal and are living it, and look down at others who are not living our proclaimed ideal, then we are sick people. Especially since those people are usually further from the ideal than we are!Like I said, I think there are people in both places. There are good frummies and bad ones, just like there are good less frum people and bad ones. If you don’t live or really mix with this crowd, you just see the bad and lump us all together. The bad definitely stands out. Like I said, they stink and we despise them as well, especially for the bad name it gives all of us.I have more to say, but this is probably enough, and I probably am just repeating myself. The bottom line is people who preach kollel and who preach frum as an ideal are sometimes very normal and very nice and very accepting even of those not like them. Those who don’t tolerate others, and those who claim they have made it when they haven’t, they are found in all communities not just frum ones, and they are disgusting people.I hope I totally have not lost you all by now, and if you think I am wrong or maybe I didn’t make myself clear, just let me know.ShalomElisheva
posted by Elisheva @ 5:02 PM

93 Comments:
Josh said...
Elisheva, that was beautiful and really well written. I don't know if I could add to it; I think you said exactly what needed to be said. Hope you don't mind if I stick around and "eavesdrop" awhile- I know I will leave smarter from what you share here.
5:23 PM
Yankel Doodle said...
I've always wanted to eavesdrop on a dormsroom in sem. Is this what you talk about? How dissapointing. (-:
5:44 PM
ClooJew said...
Elisheva,You didn't have to write that long disclaimer at the beginning or your post, because what you wrote was absolutely outstanding and hit the nail squarely on the head.You should, lulei demistafina, print this out and distribute it to every school and shul in Monsey, Lakewood, Flatbush, etc. Your points need to be read and understood by parents and teachers if they are going to properly educate their children/students.As to your point about frummies, there is an enormous difference between being a hypocrite (preaching one thing and doing the opposite) and trying to be the best you can be, but failing (even if you fail alot).Like you said, the failures and the fakers stand out, because first of all that's what happens in all societies. Does the New York Post tell you about all the people that went to work, ate lunch, and read their email peacefully? No. They tell you about all the rapes, murders and stolen cars. The darkside is all people want to talk about.Additionally, in Jewish circles people want to bash the frum, and in frum circles they want to bash the yeshivish, because of latent insecurities. If I truly believe that my derech is better than yours, I don't bash you, I pity you. Or better yet, I try to win you over.You are, lulei demistafina, a very positive--and unfortunately too rare--force on the blogosphere: Someone who loves all Jews, who is looking to make a positive contribution, who admits to imperfections without excusing them.Keep up the great work.
6:30 PM
ClooJew said...
Oh, and by the way, when, lulei demistafina, did "fancy shmancy" become "fancy delancy"???
6:30 PM
Elisheva said...
Hi friends,You all are really such nice supports. Thanks for the wonderful comments. I don't really know how to publicise my blog, but if you think it is worthwhile reading, by all means please send others this way (or let me know ways to make myself known).A short note: I think ppl misunderstood my disclaimer. It was for something I didn't end up writing yet. Since i wasn't sure to write or not, I meanwhile came up with this, but, no, this is not dormroom talk, but more serious.Shalom.
6:39 PM
Halfnutcase said...
elisheva you really really have a gift for writing. and like some others said, alot of ahavas yisroel. we should only hope that the seminarys should produce more outstanding indeviduals, and also, i agree the material you've been writing really should be distributed widely. it deffinitely hits the head on the nail, in a tznius and appropirate manner.
8:29 PM
Elster said...
Elisheva:Good thoughts. I agree with pretty much everything you said. People have a tendency to fall into camps and spend their times bashing those who do not agree with their philosophies. Someone sent me a link for a website once which basically exists as a place where troubled "frummer" (sorry for lack of better term) kids can go and discuss their problems - of a whole variety of sorts.At first I thought this was a great thing - and it was quite shocking too. To this point, i had no idea that the types of problems which plauged modern orthodox kids affected more yeshivish kids as well. So I was very happy to see that since, unfortunately this p[roblem existed, there was a place these kids could go.However, upon further review (ie, when I actually began reading through this site), I noticed something very disturbing. The moderator(s) where basically using the site as a platform for undercutting anything that differed from their own views. It was like oh, you might be pregnant- we are here for you. Oh by the way, the Modern orthodx are BAD. Yeshiva University is BAD. People who belive in the Israeli government are BAD. I was so amazed by the level og hatred coming off the site AGAINST OTHER JEWS (especially when the target audic=nce is a bunch of easily imprssionable kids), I actually wrote in a couplke of times. It was all "we" (truly orthodox) and "them (modern orthodox. They used the word Zionism like you would use "Naziism". Alas, my points were never posted and my thoughts were never taken.
9:42 PM
Semgirl said...
This is absolutely great stuff, Elisheva. You've managed to read my mind and write about it immensely better, than I could.
11:32 PM
The Tailor said...
elisheva,off to a great start. Try to worry less about what others think though, this is YOUR blog.i would, however, like to bring to your attention something you said that I think s not so nice. you call non cholov yisroel "cholov akum"and that is not accurate. Yes, it is cholov stam, but i don't think there are any real star worshippers anymore. some people could take offense, just a heads up.
1:29 AM
Semgirl said...
Motty, she wasn't pokening halacho. Technically its Cholov Stam. In Yeshivish circles, its called Ch Akam, thats just the social/cultural jargon. Right or wrong..
2:08 AM
Elisheva said...
Keep the comments coming. Love you all.And I'm sorry, I mixed up the akum/stam thing. I guess halacha is not my major point.Shalom
2:24 AM
The Rabbi's Kid said...
Elisheva,You make some excellent points. However, it starts getting more worrying when the leadership of particular communities perpetuate and even educate towards the hypocrisy that you rail against.TRK
3:20 AM
Pragmatician said...
Nice article, very interesting.
5:33 AM
The Tailor said...
Elisheva (& SG),I know you (she) wasn't paskening halacha, my intention wasn't to correct her, my intention was to point out that some might find the term cholov akum offensive and just isn't a nice phrase. i know in the yeshivish circles the term is used, but so is "shfartza" for black people and so on...I just wanted to let you (her) know that for future reference.no hard feelings, right?
8:48 AM
EN said...
Nice article.
9:14 AM
NormalJew said...
Beautifully written post!! I couldnt agree with you more that there is nothing wrong- it is even noble- to truly live a torah/kollel lifestyle. BUt it must be real, as ytou say. If you are going to "sit" in Kollel and pretend to be holy, then go home and go online and do everything else others do, all the while preaching to others, then it is the biggest chillul Hashem ever!!and the teachers who preach tznius etc. then come in in sexy clothes etc. are the biggest hypocrites of them all!Live and let live is the name of the game!! Peace!NJ from NJ
10:20 AM
Daniel said...
I think you presented the topic very nicely. I have a question for you though. What happens when a bochur decides he wants to live the ideal life and sit in kolell aftre getting married. Is it fair for him to expect his parents/in-laws to support (gelt) him?
1:23 PM
ClooJew said...
Elisheva,Looks like you're becoming L'il Miss Popularity!Unfortunately, I agree, lulei demistafina, with Elster about many blogs. On the bright side, though, there are many blogs where the posters and commenters are mostly even-handed and polite. I think this group falls into that category. Most of us here are also on each others' blogs and I think it's important that we continue these dialogues in this fashion.Maybe, lulei demistafina, we should all pick up as a group, move somewhere, and start our own frum, balanced, NORMAL community!
1:45 PM
Elster said...
Good luck with that Cloojew (unless, of course, you can use your Hollywood millions to finance the shul, mikvah, butcher and, most importantly, my house).
2:35 PM
Elisheva said...
NJ, thank you for the comments, and thank you for your help with how to set up a blog. BTW, thank you Josh and SemGirl with the links. I think I got it now.CJ - That is such a cute idea! Could you imagine ppl from all walks of life moving to Blog, USA with like being normal, mentchlich etc. as the binding glue? And the popular comments are really making me blush.... but thank you.Daniel - I think you are bringing something up that has nothing to do with this post and could probably get never-ending comments. As far as me personally, the way I look at it, and I think it is misrepresented out there, is that we WANT our husbands to learn Torah (those of us who do)and our parents too want a son-in-law who will try his best to make a home based in Torah. Therefore we WANT to support them as best we can. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone can spend money as they see fit. So a bachur who wants to learn can try to find a wife/in-laws who would LIKE to support/help him.Like I said, I totally agree that those who think people HAVE to support them, and especially those who spend the money they get cause they are learning and then live like all fancy shmancy delancy (lol, CJ!)and are always trying to outdo each other, they are so totally wrong. And then they tell us to sacrifice for Torah!But there are people doing it both ways, and lots of couples and families I know live very nicely within their means and their wives/in-laws are more than happy to support/help for Torah.Shalom
2:42 PM
ClooJew said...
Elster,I'm working on it. (is that six bedrooms or seven?)Shev,It really is, lulei demistafina, one of my life-goals to try soemthing like that. Despite the fact that most experiments with social engineering failed miserably, I keep thinking "What if?" Maybe I'll dedicate a post to it.Not sure I like Blog for a name though. How about Fancy Shmancy Delancyville?
2:53 PM
Elster said...
Cloo:5 will totally do (so long as I have a nice office for writing and a six-burner stove top.The reason a neigborhood like that would never work is because as soon as it becomes popular, EVERYONE will want to live there, even those not as open minded as we are. Thus, within a few years it would be no different than the one you live in now. You can't keep people out.It's like when ppl start a new shul because the one they are in is too loud. it's all well and good until the shul becomes so popular, it has 125 members and then its loud again.
3:12 PM
Elster said...
Cloo:5 will totally do (so long as I have a nice office for writing and a six-burner stove top.The reason a neigborhood like that would never work is because as soon as it becomes popular, EVERYONE will want to live there, even those not as open minded as we are. Thus, within a few years it would be no different than the one you live in now. You can't keep people out.It's like when ppl start a new shul because the one they are in is too loud. it's all well and good until the shul becomes so popular, it has 125 members and then its loud again.
3:12 PM
Elster said...
and that thought was sooo good, I had to post it twice.
3:13 PM
ClooJew said...
Sure we'll keep people out, lulei demistafina.We'll incorporate a HUGE tract of land and make it like a kibbutz.It's all soooo Orwellian.btw, we would have at least three shuls and two eruvin.
4:04 PM
Elster said...
THAT is very very funny
4:13 PM
Halfnutcase said...
actualy i don't think it would fail. because if we take the oppertunity to establish the community and set up all the va'ads that are needed, then i think they might be able not to let themselves become a silent majority, all it takes is a little planning.
4:46 PM
EN said...
CJ will be the Rosh Beis Din and Elisheva will write up the teshuvos from the outcome. Howz that?! :)
4:55 PM
AnonyOne said...
Why why why can't we just restart our current communities like that? Just take a stand in your kids' schools. Get on the shul board, or at least attend the meetings! Let's retake our hometowns from the right wing!
6:13 PM
Elisheva said...
Anonyone - Great point. We should be realistic and work day by day, item by item to like change the things we work with and places and people we work with.YB - Me, teshuvos? I will totally mix up stuff like chalav akum with stam. I'll stick to writing opinions. You can do the teshuvos.
6:21 PM
turquoiseblue said...
elster, you make me lol!!Cloojew, sign me up! (7 bedrooms please. And 7 bathrooms to go with that - to overcome any potential objection from hubbie:)Elisheva/Anonyone, let's start writing up that step-by-step list... we'll even "reward" points to all of us in normaljewblogville for every indivuidual baby-step taken! Ya think?
6:57 PM
Tova said...
I've been *ahem* working with my daughter's preschool this year about the sudden new rule of covering knees and elbows after Pesach in pre1A. That infuriated me; this school, I thought, was middle-of-the-road frum with a superb education. Bottom line: they now know there's a full parent body that doesn't want the school to turn into all the "yeshivish" schools that we didn't send our girls to! I'm really trying! I refuse to be chased out of town!
11:06 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
If I may interupt the real estate chit-chat...?I've been a frummie. I've been a bum. Being a bum was worse.I don't think anyone REALLY has a problem with frummies, as you call them, unless that problem is jelousy in disguise. What people have a problem with is hypocricy (sp?). That said, Jews have to turn everything into a contest, that is well known.My shaloch monos is bigger than YOUR shalach monos!Oh, yeah? Well, my wife's skirt is longer than your wife's skirt?Oh, yeah? Well, my esrog is a bazillion times cleaner than your esrog!OH, YEAH?!?! Well, I paid a gazillion times more money for tuition than you did!!!OH, YEAH!?!?!?!? WELL, MY TATTY'S SEDER LASTED FOUR AND HALF DAYS!!!! HOW LONG DID YOUR TATTY'S SEDER LAST FOR?And so forth. And if we're looking for a place to build New BlogSquare, let's dynamite Flatbush and build it there. That way we can still go to Manhattan on Motzai Shabbos. And we need a Nusach Sefard minyon that davens at 10:00 Shabbos morning, otherwise I can't come.
11:57 PM
Elisheva said...
Chainik Hocker - you are right on target! You pointed out so well the whole competition thing. I was rolling reading it.AND can we please reserve a nice little home for me and my bashert once I find him? Don't need too many bedrooms or bathrooms, I've learned to manage with little at home, but PLEASE a gorgeous, spacious kitchen, with TWO dishwashers, thank you, and Shalom
1:08 AM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Where do you want to live? Because you casn find a fourteen bedroom mansion with two indoor heated pools (milchig and fleishig), helicopter pad and bowling alley for about five bucks a month in Lakewood, and I can find you a nice refrigerator box (on the seventh floor, no elevator) in Flatbush for about $19,000 a month (cash only).
1:17 AM
The real me said...
Most of your article is right on the nose, however you then go into a whole thing how you hate the teachers who walk into class each day with new shoes etc.If we are to stop this baseless hate, we must start loving our fellow Jew, not because they are not transparent hypocrites, but because they are fellow Jews, regardless of how they dress, or what nisyonos they fail to overcome.No offense intended
1:43 AM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Hatred based on someone's behavior is, by definition, not baseless hatred.Also, it's not baseless hatred, it's more like baseless mild distaste and dislike. Except we already established it's not baseless.I left yeshiva a long time ago- ClooJew, how do you say "well-founded mild dislike" in Aramish?I'm not making fun of you, Real Me, it's just that... okay, I'm making fun of you, but not in a mean way. Sorry.
1:56 AM
The Rabbi's Kid said...
Guys, it sounds like a veritable Lord of the Flies-fest in Blog town!Any volunteers to be Piggy?TRK
7:54 AM
Elisheva said...
Just to confirm what chainik man said. I didn't mean hate as in HATE. I don't hate the person, but they act in a sick way which IS hateful, and we despise the way they act and treat us.Of course thet are Jews and part of the family, but not having baseless hatred doesn't mean I can't hate the way real hypcrytical people act. Does it?Shalom
9:18 AM
ClooJew said...
Blow up Flatbush? Lulei demistafina!How did my nice little Orwellian socialist utopian project turn into a latent terrorist organization. Woe is me!Okay, so hocker was kidding; besides where would be without Amnon's pizza?As for Elisheva, she gets this beautiful little house on the hill--painted yellow with a white picket fence, flowerbed, and a porchswing. You get two dishwashers in the kitchen and one in the basement for Pesach.No backyard pools needed because we will have a JCC with two pools so men and women can swim at all times. And two gyms. But only one food court, where there will be a pizza parlor and a burger joint. The fancy restaurant in town will have its own place (with valet parking).One shul, one nusach, one rabbi. Next to shul will be the boys yeshiva; down the block is the girls yeshiva. Only the teachers will have uniforms--no new shoes for you!
2:27 PM
ClooJew said...
As for the comments on hate. Allow me please, lulei demistafina, to quote the tzadeikes Bruria who pointed out, "Chataaim ne'emar; chotim lo ne'emar." The verse describes G-d as ending sin not sinners.However, it should be added that the verse continues with G-d destroying "evildoers."So I think, lulei demistafina, that when it comes to "nisyonos they fail to overcome," as The Real Me aptly calls it, we don't hate our fellow Jews. But when the point comes that the behavior is evil, it's a different story.
2:31 PM
Elster said...
How can we have only one fancy restaurant? I don't trust THAT hechsher.
2:49 PM
ClooJew said...
Oh it will have several hechsheirim. Just like we will have several eruvin.
3:35 PM
Elisheva said...
Hi!You guys are hysterical. So all we need is a name for our little town then? a gym, eruv, and uniforms for teachers - I'm in! And that house sounds really nice.About the hate issue. I thought about it alot over the morning. Then I was lucky enough to meet this kollel guy I know who is the nicest, most normal, open-minded kollel guy probably in Lakewood (married :( ), and I asked him.He said pretty much like CJ. You can hate the way they act for sure, if not them. And at times, such when they do things not by mistake or failure but "b'shita" (I think he means on purpose or spitefully) then they are like declaring war on Hashem who asks us not to live this way, and with such people it is different. He said it's very different people who try to be good and fail, and those who know what it means to be good (not like uninformed, mistakes, or totally frei people) yet they decide to spite what they know is right and live their own selfish lives come what may. I may not be making myself clear, so please don't take this as Torah, but I thought the idea comes across that there are differences.Shalom
4:33 PM
Halfnutcase said...
sounds right.
4:44 PM
ClooJew said...
I KNEW IT!!!!Lulei demistafina, I could have been a Lakewood Kollel Guy!!!!Happy Happy Joy Joy!
6:20 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Cloojew:"Orwellian" and "uotpia" do not belong in the same sentence. I think you mean "dystopia".Also, Amnon's is in Boro Park. Why, yes, I did go to chasidishe yeshivas- but I have a library card. To forstall disbeleiving comments.
7:10 PM
ClooJew said...
Are you sure? Which is the one on Ave. J?Besides, lulei demistafina, I meant "Jewtopia"
7:32 PM
The real me said...
While it might be based on someone's behavior. It dose not mean that its a valid reason (or base) for hate.I just thought it was a somewhat ironic ( or somewhat hypocritical) (we)blog.
8:39 PM
Elisheva said...
Real Me: Oh no! The valid reason part was not in question! Of course it's not baseless. I was only bothered by the part that is it right to hate a person even for a reason, and that is what i said that we usually mean we hate the way they act not them.But of course the reason is valid. Judaism doesn't mean we have to be mindless idiots and accept every selfish type of behavior as proper. It so gets to me when ppl mix up tolerance and being an idiot.If a person looks down on others and is selfish and KNOWS it's wrong and could care less about anyone else, that is so disgusting, and that is not baseless. The only thing is maybe we love that person anyway. But of course we hate what they are doing and for VALID reasons!Just feel strongly about this, but no harm intended. Feel free to disagree.Shalom
9:35 PM
Lvnsm27 said...
Hate is a strong word. And I think we should use a different word instead, for ex. the word dislike, when saying how we feel about fellow Jews who are hypocritical. _____The rest of your post is very good though. great job. This line below is a very good one.""There are good frummies and bad ones, just like there are good less frum people and bad ones.""________Btw, I like the idea about that little town. It might not come about but you can all make a really good story and post it on your blogs.:)
9:46 PM
Josh said...
I'm so late in joining the fray that real estate prices are probably already prohibitive in Elsblogville too. But am I the only one who thinks that most of what you guys are describing in an "open community" already exists...in tons of places? Plenty of out-of-town communities exist where people choose their own definition of frumkeit. Nobody looks for reasons to look down on each other. There aren't enough Jews to not count somebody for minyan because of their shirt color; there certainly aren't enough restaurants to not hold of a hechsher. They may not be perfect for the person who lives for the perfect slice of pizza, but they aren't bad for somebody who wants to live outside the shadows of a predefined Yiddishkeit. For the record, you don't have to leave the NYC area to find them. For all the thinking outside the box here, it still seems like some of you are pretty hesitant to think outside of South Jersey. Elisheva, if you want, I can help you find a nice white frame house with a picket fence. I can even help with the Chosson role.
10:03 PM
The real me said...
That is exactly the point I was trying to make, to hate "them" is wrong.We can find offensive and dislike their actions but we need to keep the "them" out of it, no matter what it is they did, or do.
11:09 PM
Halfnutcase said...
you get the same hypocracy every where really, but you can try to make sure that the community is as normal as possible. if we can't have one shtus we'll have another.
9:29 AM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Cloojew, you're going to hav to be more specific- there are four pizza stores on Ave. J, although I bet you're thinking of JII.Josh, stop hitting on Elisheva... so obviously. Make subdued comments and subtle hints, like Cloojew and me. You're not following the rules and its no fair. :)
3:30 PM
Halfnutcase said...
does elisheva like the sublte hints? or does she perfer them to come right out and say it?
4:05 PM
Elisheva said...
Honest truth? I like both. The subtle stuff is even more fun though.Shalom
6:27 PM
An Unknown Hasid said...
what you have to say is great and so inspirational. It was good you came to my blog to post so I could hear such good words about the frum for a change.thanks for visiting my blog.
9:03 PM
Josh said...
CH and HNC - Based on the vibe on Bleemy's blog, I want to make sure my comments aren't taken as inappropriately "hitting on" Elisheva. Let me explain. There is tachlis and there is not tachlis. If somebody is looking for a frum spouse, I don't care if they are set up through a matchmaker or meet on a blog, that is tachlis. If somebody is looking for a fleeting physical or emotional relationship, it is inappropriate, regardless of whether they are formally set up or meet in a supermarket.As far as my comments on this blog, I don't see a problem...(That was about as subtle as the smell in the Beis Medrash in the middle of the summer!)
12:26 AM
The Chainik Hocker said...
I was kidding, as indicated by the :) at the end of my comment.Did not mean to offend.Slachtoni.
12:59 AM
Josh said...
CH - I wasn't choshesh (suspicious of) you. I just want to make sure my comments don't end up taken out of context. Just being defensive.
9:42 PM
The Chainik Hocker said...
Okay then.have an easy fast.
10:04 PM
Red Adair said...
How did "misnagdim" evolve into "litvish" and now "yeshivish".The implication being that only they learn Torah, properly or at all.Based on the comments here, the lifestyle seems like a charade.The whole “Kollel for life” syndrome is only a very recent phenomenon, 30 years max.
12:12 AM
Jew Speak said...
Elisheva,What a great post! Words from the heart enter the heart. I am also amazed at how much bashing goes on. When we take a step back and think of how the world is really set up we see that all this bashing has no platform to exist. Let me explain. I once asked a question to one of my Rabbi's, "Do you mean to tell me that since my parents are not religious and I am, they are going to burn and I will be fine?" He looked at me with steady eyes and said, "actually, you have no idea where they are holding." He said that we look at individuals and groups as if they are on different rungs of a ladder. Wow, Shimon is really frum... he is way up on the ladder, Tziporah is mamash a tzadeikes, oh Smuli ... nebach ... he is a lost cause, this group is the only group that is doing it right etc. The reality is that G-d only judges us by where he started us on the ladder and how far we climb up from that rung. So we really have no idea where anyone or any group is holding. If we are honest we will realize that we have no measuring device to really make this calculation. (Obviously we are not speaking about evil people like Htler.) So bashing others is really a display of ignorance.
4:33 AM
Halfnutcase said...
yup.
8:43 AM
Elisheva said...
JewSpeak, that is such a nice idea! We really have like no clue of anyone's nistonos. I once heard that there are people born like more spiritual, so if they are just frum, it doesn't mean they will get too much schar. For them Hashem expects way more.And there are people totally born with terrible urges and if they are even just ok, meaning most of the time they manage to control themselves, even though to us they look like pretty not major, surely not as good as this do-gooder type, Hashem may give them way more reward for controlling themselves so much.So we really can't judge.Red Adair: I don't know what you are talking about. Where do you see from this post or any comments that the whole kollel thing is a charade? I guess you just have your own little agenda like you write how it is only 30 years old, which has nothing to do with anything.Oh well, you can't convince everyone...Shalom
9:10 AM
ClooJew said...
Red,Axe grinding is down the hall to the left.Jewspeak,Having been on this blog and the blogs of many of those that post here, I can say that, lulei demistafina, we have set up a nice little community of non-bashers. It's a diverse group and we learn and grow from each other's thoughts and observations.
3:55 PM
Michael said...
Cloo, What's with the pic change? Lulei demistafina the old one was cooler. ;)
4:29 PM
Semgirl said...
L-Dem... and much hotter, too..
6:29 PM
Josh said...
SG "L-Dem" LOVE it!Have a great weekend all!
7:01 PM
Manny said...
Boy, im totally identifying. I just came back from Israel and feel totally the same way. And the same way form sweeping the blogs! I think its time to make a difference, though im not sure how. The blogs have been an excellent way for me to communicate with other Jews, but I feel that we are all reaching a small population. *Shrug* maybe it takes just one Jew at a time.I'll definatly tell my friends to check up this blog.
6:24 PM
Halfnutcase said...
some people are more comfortable hinting cause they're shy...
9:56 PM
Michael said...
Eli: "L-dem"-that's brilliant!!! (even as I guy I'd admit the old one was 'hotter')...at least lulei demistafina. ;)Hope y'all had a meaningful and not-too-difficult fast.
10:59 PM
Elisheva said...
Hi all! Hope you all had an easy - and yes meaningful - fast. Welcome Michael and Manny. Am I totally slow or sheltered or what, but if I'm embarassed to ask, I won't learn. What is L-dem? Please don't all laugh at once...And Cloo, the old pic was definitely hotter!Thanks for the comments everyone. Hope to have a new post soon.Shalom
11:15 PM
Halfnutcase said...
l-dem should mean liberal demacrat... but i'm not sure (being rather sheltered my self)
11:51 PM
Semgirl said...
L-dem is just short for Luli Demisti******
12:36 AM
Manny said...
here I was thinking that it was "love demi" - I dont love demi, and frankly, i think ashton is crazy! ;-)
12:56 AM
Michael said...
Ooops, I mixed up Eli with Semgirl-I hope you both can be mochel me.BTW-Eli, how, when asking about the definition of lulei demistafina (a gemara term), can you call yourself "sheltered" considering you live in Lakewood!?!I think it means (roughly) "according to the way I see it" but if I'm wrong, maybe Cloo can correct me.
1:13 AM
brianna said...
I'd like to reserve a 1 bedroom apt in Blogville. How are the housing prices over there? ;)
2:02 AM
Elisheva said...
Sorry for being slow with the L-dem. Guess it was after a long fast, lol.Michael, in Lakewood they shelter girls from knowing too much learning stuff, especially gemara. Besides i thought maybe it was a yeshiva term which I know even less of.Basically they teach us Nach, tznius, hashkafa, tznius, history, tznius, halacha, tznius, etc.Shalom
7:08 AM
Semgirl said...
Elisheva ... two words.. ARTSCROLL.
9:33 AM
ClooJew said...
With the disengagement today, there is a possibility, Rachmana litzlan, of Jews shooting at other Jews.I think it's important that everyone, regardless of your position, take a moment today and over the next few days to say one chapter of Psalms to beg the Good L-rd not to allow any bloodshed.
12:30 PM
Halfnutcase said...
is that all they teach you in lakewood? they really aught to be teaching you more than that. girls are the mainstay of the home and of our future. didn't the women for instance learn torah before the men from moshe?if our women are the mainstay of the home they deserve to know more than they are teaching them.
3:34 PM
Semgirl said...
You are so refreshingly naive HNC you are hysterical Thanks for making me laugh
5:33 PM
Michael said...
First, and I apologize for not addressing things in the order they came up but ***Cloo Posted Without Saying "L-Dem"!!!-Just so that everyone understands and appreciates the magnitude of this event. I don't know if I can go on today....But I think I can.Elisheva: First, I igured that if it's a yeshivish term you'd have heard it from your brothers or father. Guess not...It's always bothered me that girls can be taught so many other things (science, math, business, law, medicine) and yet so many times they aren't taught Torah. It's the main part of our being, the main part of our life, and yet they don't learn it.Since you say you're open-minded etc, have you ever wondered what they're sheltering you from? Do they not want you to know Torah? Even within Tanach, Halacha, Hashkafa etc, there's so much to learn. And yet I'll bet that they limit your learning of that, too.It's ironic to note that despite all they teach you about tznius (you listed it four times), you still aren't completely comfortable with it and still post questions about it on your blog.It's seems like things are so backwards and it's so depressing to know that so many members of klal yisrael have to suffer through it.Stay strong, I look forward to reading another post from you soon!
5:48 PM
Halfnutcase said...
semgirl:thanksi kinda don't have any sisters so... i don't really know what they do teach you i know at least one peron i know complained regulary that they never taught her anything. i guess it really is true. wow. i hope they can start teaching you all what you deserve to know really soon, and quit indocterinating
6:19 PM
Elisheva said...
Hi all! HNC and Michael, you definitely are right. They SHOULD teach us way more, and that is even without gemara. i am not getting into helacha questions.The truth is i am not THAT curious to learn gemara. I don't know why. But I'd LOVE to know much more of the stuff we ARE allowed to know according to all opinions.Actualy I do wonder what is out there, and I read ALOT. I try to get as many English sefarim as i can get my hands on and learn them. I wish I had a better structure for doing this, shiur, group, etc. but for a single girl in Lakewood, I don't know of too many such places. But i try to do alot on my own, which is maybe WHY i am more open-minded than others. I think it is cause i try to know alot that I am open to stuff, not that because i was open to stuff i tried to learn alot.And yes SemGirl, I LOVE ArtScroll, but I usually limit it to hashkafa, machshava stuff and i pick up like ZERO yeshivish terms from it. i just feel too clueless to try it with gemara, and the truth is I don't necesarily know if that is what i am missing.And CJ, that was a beautiful message, and let us really daven that things go in the right way I guess.Shalom
7:45 PM
ClooJew said...
First of all, let's just take a moment to recognize how far, lulei demistafina, we've come. Did anyone read the story of Tisha B'Av yesterday? There was a civil war, Jews were killing each other, EATING each other, dying in horrific numbers, burning all the food. It was a sick time.Aren't we overreacting just a wee bit? Can't a young woman with the interest and inclination buy books and study? Semgirl summed it up: ArtScroll! No one is stopping you from learning.Also, the guys learning is limited as well. Women learn WAY more Rambam and Ramban than men. So we all need extra-curricular reading.btw, Shev, there was a book published several years back by an english teacher at the Philly yeshiva on yeshivish. It's quite cool, though I don't recall the name.
9:09 PM
ClooJew said...
PS: I shaved.
9:10 PM
Josh said...
It seems the lesson here is familiar. There is no "formula" for everybody. Even in learning, everybody has different answers they're looking for. There isn't one book (Artscroll or otherwise) that will break everyone out of a spiritual rut. Does Halacha distinguish between the education of men and women? Yes. Does that mean there isn't flexibility? No. Popping open an Artscroll Gemara probably won't help most people, but there are plenty of "tools" out there that will do the job.
10:23 PM
Elisheva said...
Well spoken all of you.
10:53 PM
Michael said...
Cloo, I shaved, too! Wow, I can see my face again! ...though "Shev" prob doesn't need to know about this stuff ;
12:49 AM
TRW said...
I'm late in coming to this blog, I know, but I'd like to reserve a small space in this wonderful town you're building ;)And elisheva, I LOVED your post.
1:18 PM